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Racist Europeans sore loser in Electric Vehicle competition!
- Thread starter Eisenhut
- Start date
To be fair, Europe has never been shy about their anti-trust anti-competitive market stance... Like with Microsoft and GE. The other side will just reciprocate
No surprise there. The Europeans have traditionally been more protectionist than the US. The former use trade to protect its industries while the latter use trade as a political tool. That's why the Europeans can't even compete with the Japs and Koreans in combustion engine cars, let alone take on China with their hobbled EV industry.
That said, China is now the world leader and the largest market for EV. 60% of the cars on the road are EV, all highways have unmanned quick charging stations at intervals and battery swap stations allow motorists to make a quick pit stop before resuming their journey. They have left the Europeans, Japs and Americans far behind.
Ironically, China's massive EV investment may actually cause them to lag behind Europe and Japan in the next battle ground: hydrogen fuel cell cars. Cleaner, shorter charging cycles, longer range, cheaper cost. How to convince the consumers to switch to hydrogen cars is the big hurdle, given the paucity of fuel cell stations currently and a nation too weaned on EV technology.
* * *
NORIYUKI DOI, Nikkei staff writerJuly 16, 2023 06:20 JST
SHANGHAI -- Beijing SinoHytec, China's largest fuel cell maker, is struggling to find its way in the world's largest electric vehicle market, with languid passenger car sales forcing a shift to commercial trucks and buses.
Sales for a fuel cell vehicle it developed with Chinese state-owned automaker Changan Automobile have been close to nonexistent a year after the model was launched.
"The fuel cell vehicle was developed to demonstrate our company's technical capabilities. We do not sell it here," said a representative at a Changan dealership in Shanghai.
A version of the Changan Deep Blue SL03 was marketed as China's first mass-produced fuel cell sedan, which uses an electric motor that draws from a fuel cell powered by hydrogen. But its high price, 699,900 yuan ($98,000), and a lack of hydrogen fueling stations has made it a hard sell.
Not a single fuel cell passenger car was sold in China for six consecutive months through May, according to the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers. Even in August 2022, immediately after the Changan sedan went on the market, only 120 fuel cell vehicles were sold. Electric vehicle sales in China have exceeded 600,000 units in a month.
SinoHytec's net loss for the fiscal year ended December 2022 stood at 166 million yuan, exceeding the previous year's 162 million yuan loss.
"We told customers that they should buy fuel cell vehicles because it's a clean energy that only emits water. That was a mistake," said Dai Wei, president of SinoHytec subsidiary Shanghai SinoFuelCell.
The company now hopes to leverage fuel cell vehicles' advantages over standard EVs, such as shorter charging times, longer cruising ranges and the ability to maintain performance even at low temperatures, to sell fuel cells for commercial vehicles like trucks and buses. Fuel cell vehicles are also lighter than EVs and can carry more cargo.
SinoHytec was China's top supplier of fuel cells in 2022, accounting for 20% of the market, according to Sinolink Securities. It provided fuel cell buses for the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics with Toyota Motor and China's state-owned BAIC Group.
China's Refire, which is second in the domestic market, has delivered fuel cell trucks to Swedish furniture chain IKEA and 49-tonne fuel cell trucks to U.S. construction machinery maker Caterpillar.
Commercial vehicles present an opportunity for growth. According to the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers, about 300,000 commercial EVs were sold in 2022, 9.2% of all commercial vehicles. Fuel cell vehicle commercial sales were only 3,681 units, 0.1% of the total.
"By 2025, 7.5% of heavy-duty trucks will be replaced by alternative fuel vehicles, 25% of which will be fuel cell vehicles," said an analyst at Sinolink Securities. Alternative fuel vehicles include EVs, plug-in hybrids and fuel cell vehicles.
Fuel cell trucks are more cost efficient than other electric vehicles. The cost of operating a 49-tonne truck 1 million kilometers is 2.94 million yuan, compared with 3.23 million yuan for a standard electric vehicle, according to the Sinolink analyst. Fuel cell vehicles cost 0.07 yuan per tonne per km, while the figure for other EVs is 0.08 yuan.
A major contributing factor to the low total cost is generous government subsidies. A 49-tonne truck priced at 1.3 million yuan will be given subsidies of 924,000 yuan from the central and local governments, bringing the purchase price down to just 376,000 yuan. An EV truck of the same size is said to cost 989,000 yuan.
The Chinese government is pushing the spread of fuel cells to help achieve carbon neutrality by 2060, setting a target of 50,000 fuel cell vehicles in the country by 2025. The government hopes the shift will help reduce annual carbon dioxide emissions by 1 million to 2 million tonnes.
SinoHytec's current customers are mainly public bus companies controlled by local governments, and management is closely related to national policy.
"Graphite, which is the main raw material for fuel cells, is extremely cheap. More expensive platinum can be recycled, and if the cells are mass-produced, costs can be greatly reduced," said Shanghai SinoFuelCell's Dai.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/China-s-fuel-cell-vehicle-push-stalls-out-amid-EV-boom
That said, China is now the world leader and the largest market for EV. 60% of the cars on the road are EV, all highways have unmanned quick charging stations at intervals and battery swap stations allow motorists to make a quick pit stop before resuming their journey. They have left the Europeans, Japs and Americans far behind.
Ironically, China's massive EV investment may actually cause them to lag behind Europe and Japan in the next battle ground: hydrogen fuel cell cars. Cleaner, shorter charging cycles, longer range, cheaper cost. How to convince the consumers to switch to hydrogen cars is the big hurdle, given the paucity of fuel cell stations currently and a nation too weaned on EV technology.
* * *
China's fuel cell vehicle push stalls out amid EV boom
Manufacturers turn to commercial trucks and buses as passenger car sales sputterNORIYUKI DOI, Nikkei staff writerJuly 16, 2023 06:20 JST
SHANGHAI -- Beijing SinoHytec, China's largest fuel cell maker, is struggling to find its way in the world's largest electric vehicle market, with languid passenger car sales forcing a shift to commercial trucks and buses.
Sales for a fuel cell vehicle it developed with Chinese state-owned automaker Changan Automobile have been close to nonexistent a year after the model was launched.
"The fuel cell vehicle was developed to demonstrate our company's technical capabilities. We do not sell it here," said a representative at a Changan dealership in Shanghai.
A version of the Changan Deep Blue SL03 was marketed as China's first mass-produced fuel cell sedan, which uses an electric motor that draws from a fuel cell powered by hydrogen. But its high price, 699,900 yuan ($98,000), and a lack of hydrogen fueling stations has made it a hard sell.
Not a single fuel cell passenger car was sold in China for six consecutive months through May, according to the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers. Even in August 2022, immediately after the Changan sedan went on the market, only 120 fuel cell vehicles were sold. Electric vehicle sales in China have exceeded 600,000 units in a month.
SinoHytec's net loss for the fiscal year ended December 2022 stood at 166 million yuan, exceeding the previous year's 162 million yuan loss.
"We told customers that they should buy fuel cell vehicles because it's a clean energy that only emits water. That was a mistake," said Dai Wei, president of SinoHytec subsidiary Shanghai SinoFuelCell.
The company now hopes to leverage fuel cell vehicles' advantages over standard EVs, such as shorter charging times, longer cruising ranges and the ability to maintain performance even at low temperatures, to sell fuel cells for commercial vehicles like trucks and buses. Fuel cell vehicles are also lighter than EVs and can carry more cargo.
SinoHytec was China's top supplier of fuel cells in 2022, accounting for 20% of the market, according to Sinolink Securities. It provided fuel cell buses for the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics with Toyota Motor and China's state-owned BAIC Group.
China's Refire, which is second in the domestic market, has delivered fuel cell trucks to Swedish furniture chain IKEA and 49-tonne fuel cell trucks to U.S. construction machinery maker Caterpillar.
Commercial vehicles present an opportunity for growth. According to the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers, about 300,000 commercial EVs were sold in 2022, 9.2% of all commercial vehicles. Fuel cell vehicle commercial sales were only 3,681 units, 0.1% of the total.
"By 2025, 7.5% of heavy-duty trucks will be replaced by alternative fuel vehicles, 25% of which will be fuel cell vehicles," said an analyst at Sinolink Securities. Alternative fuel vehicles include EVs, plug-in hybrids and fuel cell vehicles.
Fuel cell trucks are more cost efficient than other electric vehicles. The cost of operating a 49-tonne truck 1 million kilometers is 2.94 million yuan, compared with 3.23 million yuan for a standard electric vehicle, according to the Sinolink analyst. Fuel cell vehicles cost 0.07 yuan per tonne per km, while the figure for other EVs is 0.08 yuan.
A major contributing factor to the low total cost is generous government subsidies. A 49-tonne truck priced at 1.3 million yuan will be given subsidies of 924,000 yuan from the central and local governments, bringing the purchase price down to just 376,000 yuan. An EV truck of the same size is said to cost 989,000 yuan.
The Chinese government is pushing the spread of fuel cells to help achieve carbon neutrality by 2060, setting a target of 50,000 fuel cell vehicles in the country by 2025. The government hopes the shift will help reduce annual carbon dioxide emissions by 1 million to 2 million tonnes.
SinoHytec's current customers are mainly public bus companies controlled by local governments, and management is closely related to national policy.
"Graphite, which is the main raw material for fuel cells, is extremely cheap. More expensive platinum can be recycled, and if the cells are mass-produced, costs can be greatly reduced," said Shanghai SinoFuelCell's Dai.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/China-s-fuel-cell-vehicle-push-stalls-out-amid-EV-boom
If you can beat 'em, join 'em.
* * *
Peter Johnson | Sep 8 2023 - 7:27 am PT
According to a new report, Mercedes-Benz plans to launch new EVs powered by BYD’s LFP Blade battery. The move comes after the German luxury automaker revealed its new CLA electric sedan concept, the first of its entry-level class designed to take on EV leaders like Tesla.
Chinese newspaper CBEA reported that Mercedes-Benz will begin production of the new EVs fitted with BYD’s blade battery in 2025 (via Car News China).
Mercedes-Benz officials claim the newly revealed CLA electric sedan concept will have cruising range of 466 miles (750 km) featuring LFP batteries from BYD.
The move would make sense as Mercedes-Benz (Daimler) and BYD have a history of cooperating. In 2010, the two companies established an R&D joint venture to develop and produce new energy vehicles (NEV). Under the Denza sub-brand, the JV launched a new NEV in China.
Rumors have been swirling as early as 2020 that Mercedes would partner with BYD to use its blade batteries.
Like many luxury automakers, Mercedes uses ternary (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) batteries for its current EV lineup.
Mercedes-Benz electric CLA concept (Source: Mercedes-Benz)
However, LFP batteries are gaining popularity due to the cheaper costs. LFP batteries require less precious metals like Cobalt, enabling them to be produced for cheaper.
Mercedes-Benz CEO Ola Kallenius explained at the IAA Mobility show in Munich how the company will deal with costs, including battery raw materials, to enhance profit margins.
The newly developed EV will kick off an entirely new class of entry-level Mercedes EVs starting in 2025 to compete with Tesla and automakers in China.
Mercedes-Benz electric CLA concept (Source: Mercedes-Benz)
One of the biggest reasons for the lower price point – LFP batteries. Many automakers are moving to LFP to lower costs.
Tesla confirmed that nearly half of its vehicles produced in the first quarter of the year were LFP. CEO Elon Musk has mentioned several times that the EV maker plans to shift more vehicles to LFP to overcome raw material supply constraints.
Mercedes-Benz CLA concept interior (Source: Mercedes-Benz)
The EV leaders uses BYD blade batteries in some Model 3 versions and the new Model Y built at Gigafactory Berlin.
https://electrek.co/2023/09/08/mercedes-benz-launch-byd-powered-evs-keep-up-tesla/
* * *
Mercedes-Benz to launch BYD-powered EVs to keep pace with Tesla, Chinese automakers
Peter Johnson | Sep 8 2023 - 7:27 am PT
According to a new report, Mercedes-Benz plans to launch new EVs powered by BYD’s LFP Blade battery. The move comes after the German luxury automaker revealed its new CLA electric sedan concept, the first of its entry-level class designed to take on EV leaders like Tesla.
Chinese newspaper CBEA reported that Mercedes-Benz will begin production of the new EVs fitted with BYD’s blade battery in 2025 (via Car News China).
Mercedes-Benz officials claim the newly revealed CLA electric sedan concept will have cruising range of 466 miles (750 km) featuring LFP batteries from BYD.
The move would make sense as Mercedes-Benz (Daimler) and BYD have a history of cooperating. In 2010, the two companies established an R&D joint venture to develop and produce new energy vehicles (NEV). Under the Denza sub-brand, the JV launched a new NEV in China.
Rumors have been swirling as early as 2020 that Mercedes would partner with BYD to use its blade batteries.
Like many luxury automakers, Mercedes uses ternary (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) batteries for its current EV lineup.
However, LFP batteries are gaining popularity due to the cheaper costs. LFP batteries require less precious metals like Cobalt, enabling them to be produced for cheaper.
Mercedes-Benz CEO Ola Kallenius explained at the IAA Mobility show in Munich how the company will deal with costs, including battery raw materials, to enhance profit margins.
Mercedes CLA electric sedan concept to rival Tesla
The new CLA concept will be the first Mercedes EV to use its next-gen 800V MMA platform. Mercedes is nicknaming it the “one-liter car” in reference to its energy consumption of around 5.2 mi/kWh (12 kWh/ 100km).The newly developed EV will kick off an entirely new class of entry-level Mercedes EVs starting in 2025 to compete with Tesla and automakers in China.
One of the biggest reasons for the lower price point – LFP batteries. Many automakers are moving to LFP to lower costs.
Tesla confirmed that nearly half of its vehicles produced in the first quarter of the year were LFP. CEO Elon Musk has mentioned several times that the EV maker plans to shift more vehicles to LFP to overcome raw material supply constraints.
The EV leaders uses BYD blade batteries in some Model 3 versions and the new Model Y built at Gigafactory Berlin.
https://electrek.co/2023/09/08/mercedes-benz-launch-byd-powered-evs-keep-up-tesla/
That is why Chinese girls are the best! Because of them, their men work very hard.
Mercedes cannot match tesla in price.If you can beat 'em, join 'em.
* * *
Mercedes-Benz to launch BYD-powered EVs to keep pace with Tesla, Chinese automakers
According to a new report, Mercedes-Benz plans to launch new EVs powered by BYD’s LFP Blade battery. The move comes after the German luxury automaker revealed its new CLA electric sedan concept, the first of its entry-level class designed to take on EV leaders like Tesla.
Chinese newspaper CBEA reported that Mercedes-Benz will begin production of the new EVs fitted with BYD’s blade battery in 2025 (via Car News China).
Mercedes-Benz officials claim the newly revealed CLA electric sedan concept will have cruising range of 466 miles (750 km) featuring LFP batteries from BYD.
The move would make sense as Mercedes-Benz (Daimler) and BYD have a history of cooperating. In 2010, the two companies established an R&D joint venture to develop and produce new energy vehicles (NEV). Under the Denza sub-brand, the JV launched a new NEV in China.
Rumors have been swirling as early as 2020 that Mercedes would partner with BYD to use its blade batteries.
Like many luxury automakers, Mercedes uses ternary (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) batteries for its current EV lineup.
Mercedes-Benz electric CLA concept (Source: Mercedes-Benz)
However, LFP batteries are gaining popularity due to the cheaper costs. LFP batteries require less precious metals like Cobalt, enabling them to be produced for cheaper.
Mercedes-Benz CEO Ola Kallenius explained at the IAA Mobility show in Munich how the company will deal with costs, including battery raw materials, to enhance profit margins.
Mercedes CLA electric sedan concept to rival Tesla
The new CLA concept will be the first Mercedes EV to use its next-gen 800V MMA platform. Mercedes is nicknaming it the “one-liter car” in reference to its energy consumption of around 5.2 mi/kWh (12 kWh/ 100km).
The newly developed EV will kick off an entirely new class of entry-level Mercedes EVs starting in 2025 to compete with Tesla and automakers in China.
Mercedes-Benz electric CLA concept (Source: Mercedes-Benz)
One of the biggest reasons for the lower price point – LFP batteries. Many automakers are moving to LFP to lower costs.
Tesla confirmed that nearly half of its vehicles produced in the first quarter of the year were LFP. CEO Elon Musk has mentioned several times that the EV maker plans to shift more vehicles to LFP to overcome raw material supply constraints.
Mercedes-Benz CLA concept interior (Source: Mercedes-Benz)
The EV leaders uses BYD blade batteries in some Model 3 versions and the new Model Y built at Gigafactory Berlin.
https://electrek.co/2023/09/08/mercedes-benz-launch-byd-powered-evs-keep-up-tesla/
And its driving aid.
But tesla design sucks.
I think it aready is. It has just beaten japan or about equal.
Having said that, toyota which has only limited or just one EV model, is selling record number of non EV and hybrid cars.
It costs too much to produce and store hydrogen unless hydrogen is produced from carbon fuel such as lng.
And hydrogen vehicles are too complex compared to EV's.Ev's like tesla does not require regular servicing. You only go when something goes wrong.
Already overtook Japan as world's largest car exporter.
China surpasses Japan as world's top auto exporter
Tesla EVs and Russian deliveries drive industry into lead
A SAIC Motor plant in Nanjing, China. SAIC was China's second-leading exporter of new energy vehicles in the first quarter after Tesla. (Photo by Tomoko Wakasugi)
SHUNSUKE TABETA, Nikkei staff writer
May 19, 2023 00:52 JST
CHONGQING, China -- China overtook Japan as the world's top auto exporter in the first quarter, spurred by rising demand for electric vehicles and increased deliveries to Russia.
China's automobile exports for the January-March period jumped 58% from a year earlier to 1.07 million units, according to the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers.
Due limited ramge of EV, elon musk singing different tune.
Combine EV and Hydrogen.
But China can catch up, its not problem
Hydrogen will not be able to compete with EV's in cost and simplicity. Forget it. You 9nly need chargers for EV's connected to grid which is available everywhere.
Hydrogen, you need to build up its infrastructure from ground up.
He is combining Hydrogen + EV.
Hydrogen is much simpler, dont need cables or charging station, just need storage
Hydrogen storage and transport is a problem too. You need to compress it to between 500-700 bar and it still will not liquify.
and need to freeze to almost absolute zero before it turns liquid. If you transport and store in gas form, it is inefficient. Therefore costly. Hydrogen can easily escape when in storage or transport due to very small molecules. Massive transit losses.
There is this company that plans to store and transport hydrogen in liquid firm. Plasma kinetics. But its still unproven.
In huge quantities, they turn hydrogen into ammonia to transporr, and later reconverted it back.
Both the costs of fuel cell car manufacture and hydrogen storage will come down with economy of scale. Government subsidies are needed initially. Public uptake remains key.
The advantages are many for hydrogen: shorter charging, longer ranges, efficiency at low temperatures, near-zero carbon footprint, lighter vehicles, better mileage. You don't need charging stations attached to a grid (problem in sparsely inhabited rural areas or desert regions), just fueling stations storing hydrogen tanks.
How Do Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles Work Using Hydrogen?
Like all-electric vehicles, fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) use electricity to power an electric motor. In contrast to other electric vehicles, FCEVs produce electricity using a fuel cell powered by hydrogen, rather than drawing electricity from only a battery. During the vehicle design process, the vehicle manufacturer defines the power of the vehicle by the size of the electric motor(s) that receives electric power from the appropriately sized fuel cell and battery combination. Although automakers could design an FCEV with plug-in capabilities to charge the battery, most FCEVs today use the battery for recapturing braking energy, providing extra power during short acceleration events, and to smooth out the power delivered from the fuel cell with the option to idle or turn off the fuel cell during low power needs. The amount of energy stored onboard is determined by the size of the hydrogen fuel tank. This is different from an all-electric vehicle, where the amount of power and energy available are both closely related to the battery's size. Learn more about fuel cell electric vehicles.
It was in CCP five year plan. To dominate clean energy products. It was too late to compete with established motor brands building ICE cars.
Hydrogen refueling stations too will not be built in sparsely inhabited region.
Battery technology is being upgraded as we speak and sodium ion batteries have no problems with very low temperatures.
Japanese car companies claim to have mastered the heavy battery issued with solid state batteries suppose to store twice the energy of current lithium ion ones. But let's see when it rolls out.
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