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Pre Trial Conference

sharin75

Alfrescian
Loyal
TS,

Which court did your brother's case begin in? I presume his counsel is assigned under the Criminal Legal Aid Scheme?

How many charges does he face? Are the charges all under the same section and Act?
(No need to reveal which section and which Act if you don't wish to)

Have representations been made? Any replies received from AGC?

Does your brother intend to claim trial, if at the end of the day if prosecution does not agree with anything asked for in the representations?

Bro,

My bro case started in court 26. Subsequently, a volunteer lawyer chose to represent him without telling him the ceiling of the bill. Now I need to worry about this bill. According to my bro, he didn't sign any confirmation letter, didn't place any deposit or never even pass him a copy of NRIC....except the charges presented.

Then I was told the subsequent mention was in court 17.

Total 6 charges. TIC 3. That was from IO words, assuming plead guilty.

But went to court 17, considered PTC right?

I read somewhere that by making representations, was to negotiate reducing or dropping charges altogether. Does making representation equals claiming trial? What happen next?

Lawyer did brief that he needed some time to digest the case. So I assumed no representations made.

We were quite reluctant to keep bothering the lawyer, in case he "added" many hours of consultation fees.

But on the other hand, very worried about the progress of the case.

No, the lawyer was a volunteer. Our household income doesn't qualify for Legal aid.
 

busdriver111

Alfrescian
Loyal
PTC is a "unofficial bargain" meeting between both sides of lawyers and the judge. Depends on what is the offence.... most of the times, ptc is used to discussed about ...

1. to plead guilty or not
2. ask for downgrade of crime... or to proceed with how many offences.
3. also to bargain for a lighter sentense if plead guilty.

if all parties agreed.. sometimes no need to claim trail liao. Just plead guilty and get a lighter sentense....

something like that. but I'm not 100% sure

Not really. The original idea was for PTCs to make it easier for judges to administer the justice system, more specifically, to schedule trial dates.

During PTCs, both sides are supposed to reveal how many witnesses will be called, any expert witnesses, whether any statements that will be used.

With this information, the court will know how many days of hearing to schedule.
 

csjcsjcsj

Alfrescian
Loyal
Never mind then.

I have no intention to make circus the case and be discussed in this open forum.

Just didn't know what to expect for my bro, and he pretty stressed at the moment.

Case got nothing to do with moral but still got criminally charged. Stupid case.

Just ignore this thread.

Thanks.

I guess either hired Ah Neh to work w/o work permit or rented room to PRC w/o work permit. Correct?
 

busdriver111

Alfrescian
Loyal
[
I guess either hired Ah Neh to work w/o work permit or rented room to PRC w/o work permit. Correct?

If TS's brother has a lawyer under the criminal legal aid scheme, then it cannot be those offences. CLAS does not cover offences under the Immigration Act.
 

sharin75

Alfrescian
Loyal
[

If TS's brother has a lawyer under the criminal legal aid scheme, then it cannot be those offences. CLAS does not cover offences under the Immigration Act.
Bro,

I typed in my reply to busdriver111 since 10pm...still not displayed... what could be wrong?

Waiting for help from Bro busdriver111...

Thanks a lot!
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I don't think bargaining for a reduced charge can be done at the station. Don't IOs have to confer with the AGC on this? Please clarify as you were from the police.

Of course bargaining for reduced charged has to be agreed by DPP/AGC, but the process starts at IO. Yes, I'm ex-police.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Police and any enforcement authorities have no power to downgrade charges. Interestingly they can upgrade charges

Prior to laying charges, the accused or his lawyer can attempt to mitigate by appealing to the Police. If the Police see merit in their claim, the Police will make the appropriate recommendation to DPP by sending the file over before laying the charges. Recommendation can include warning and no charge etc.

Once charges are laid, the best approach is to write to AG and state your position early. By the time of PTC, it is a bit too late. IO, the Police or even the Commissioner can intervene or make recommendation once charges are laid. Everything now falls with the DPP. The Police can intervene is fresh evidence surfaces.

CCMS works if there alot of charges, variety of charges and a sort of plea bargain is possible. The authorities will always want to proceed with a number of charges some of which are kept in reserve to allow plea bargaining and to convert to TIC.

The worst people to consult in legal criminal matters are Police Officers and ex-Police Officers. MG Guru found that out the hard way.


I don't think bargaining for a reduced charge can be done at the station. Don't IOs have to confer with the AGC on this? Please clarify as you were from the police.
 

sharin75

Alfrescian
Loyal
Once charges are laid, the best approach is to write to AG and state your position early. By the time of PTC, it is a bit too late. IO, the Police or even the Commissioner can intervene or make recommendation once charges are laid. Everything now falls with the DPP. The Police can intervene is fresh evidence surfaces.

By your logic, it sounded a bit late to write to AG as we are in PTC stage now.

But as long as no mention of trial, is it reasonable to assume that we could still make representations on the 6 charges?

The lawyer is going to write to the DPP? Is DPP in AGC?

If defence is able to raise reasonable doubts in representations what happens (to DPP and Police)?
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
You can still write to the AG and yes writing to the DPP is the same. When one writes to the AG in the first instance , it does carry weight as your sign of remorse plus reasons to mitigate sound more genuine and not contrived.

Lawyers have a habit of not writing to the AG to prolong their billing opportunity. When their own relatives or family member is in trouble, they will immediately write in unless they see a strong opportunity to fight the case.

In fact, the accused can write to the AG without the lawyer being involved that is there is no legal representation.

If you are talking about reasonable doubt, unless it is so obvious, AG will ask you to face trial.




By your logic, it sounded a bit late to write to AG as we are in PTC stage now.

But as long as no mention of trial, is it reasonable to assume that we could still make representations on the 6 charges?

The lawyer is going to write to the DPP? Is DPP in AGC?

If defence is able to raise reasonable doubts in representations what happens (to DPP and Police)?
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Sorry, correction in second para in bold and underlined.
Police and any enforcement authorities have no power to downgrade charges. Interestingly they can upgrade charges

Prior to laying charges, the accused or his lawyer can attempt to mitigate by appealing to the Police. If the Police see merit in their claim, the Police will make the appropriate recommendation to DPP by sending the file over before laying the charges. Recommendation can include warning and no charge etc.

Once charges are laid, the best approach is to write to AG and state your position early. By the time of PTC, it is a bit too late. IO, the Police or even the Commissioner cannot intervene or make recommendation once charges are laid. Everything now falls with the DPP. The Police can intervene is fresh evidence surfaces.

CCMS works if there alot of charges, variety of charges and a sort of plea bargain is possible. The authorities will always want to proceed with a number of charges some of which are kept in reserve to allow plea bargaining and to convert to TIC.

The worst people to consult in legal criminal matters are Police Officers and ex-Police Officers. MG Guru found that out the hard way.
 

sharin75

Alfrescian
Loyal
You can still write to the AG and yes writing to the DPP is the same. When one writes to the AG in the first instance , it does carry weight as your sign of remorse plus reasons to mitigate sound more genuine and not contrived.

If you are talking about reasonable doubt, unless it is so obvious, AG will ask you to face trial.

Bro,

1. The way you explained "writing" to AG suggests traditional handwritten format?

2. We are thinking to write in to ask the DPP to drop all the charges altogether. It is because there are some issues that we strongly feel could raise a reasonable doubt in the case that could render the charges "don't stand at all". It sounds silly since the IO would have covered the grounds. But we are sure some of the facts even the IO were not be aware.

3. But with the lawyer attending PTC and asking us (sending a letter to my bro home) no need attend court 17, we are a bit lost.

4. Even if we decide to write, we are not sure who the DPP, then how to write?

5. What if the lawyer gets angry and decide to discharge himself. My bro suddenly unrepresented. Lagi jialat? So far, my bro told me the lawyer is Chinese, so I am 100% sure he's not Ravi!:biggrin:

What would you suggest bro?
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Police and any enforcement authorities have no power to downgrade charges. Interestingly they can upgrade charges

You must be clean as a whistle good boy never been arrested by police before. There're two stages the charge passes through, station charge and court charge. The police hold you at lockup or out on bail pending investigation on station charge. Any bargaining could and should be done with IO then. He can even drop the charge. Once he charged you in court and you claimed trial, it's harder but not impossible as DPP takes over.

There's not many bargaining chips you're likely to have with DPP except through the skills of your lawyer, since DPP isn't interested in information and investigation, he just takes over the files from IO. At investigation stage, you're more likely to have bargaining chips as with information and confession.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Wrong.

1) Once you are arrested, the IO conducts an investigation. If that investigation shows a prima facie case of an offence being committed. He would have to prefer the charge. He cannot drop the charge, down grade the charge or come out with his own charge etc. If there are extenuating grounds not to charge him such as school student, existence of mitigating factors etc, he can make the recommendation to his Sr Officer for support only. If the Sr Officer agrees, it will have to go to AG for DPP to agree with the recommendation and make the decision.

2) If the investigation shows that charge that he was originally arrested does not fit the crime, the IO can then charge for the crime that is disclosed.

3) If the investigation does not disclose a crime, the case is classified as NOD (No offence Disclosed) and the accused is released by the IO. For points 2 and 3, no need to go to AG.

4) If the DPP agrees to a lesser charge, the case proceeds with the lesser charge. If the DPP agrees to a warning, the warning must be administered by the Rank of ASP and above or to a designated person assigned by the ASP.

Note: Except for the Attorney General and his designated staff, no charge can be reduced or withdrawn. No Police Officer, or enforcement officer including those in CPIB, Customs, immigration can reduce or withdraw a charge. Even the Commissioner cannot do anything.

The operating principle of control is called "Separation of Duties" to avoid another principle -"conflict of interest". The primary reason is to avoid corruption. The DPP who makes the decison has no clue if the accused is a sexy women with a mini skirt or a fat lady that looks like the back of a bus.

Members of the public arrested by the Police and have been warned or have their charges reduced are not shown the Investigation Paper which go to the AG Chambers. The same with police officers doing all other duties such as patrol etc. They are not aware what has taken place.

Why bother to have an AG, chambers full of prosecutors when the Police can do all these things in the cheap.

This is yet another example where you do not understand how control and organisational principles apply.

Here is a simple case for example.

A good student aged 19 in a Uni gets arrested for shoplifting. She is brought to the station where she will be charged in station charge book for shoplifting. She cooperates with the police and they realise that she is a student. As she is cooperated, they will refer to AG for a warning in order not to destroy her future. In the meantime she is released on bail for the shoplifting charge. If DPP in AG Chambers agrees. The file is sent back and she will be called a few days later for a warning to be administered. Note: the decision was made by DPP and not the Police.

Same student, same situation but she is kwailan and disputes the allegation. Police hands are tied. They will charge her in court. The Police can't make any recommendation in this instance.

Note: This example should not tempt anyone to plead guilty for serious cases. In such cases, it best not to implicate yourself and then seek legal advice. Be nice to the Police IO, provide all details except those that might implicate you.





You must be clean as a whistle good boy never been arrested by police before. There're two stages the charge passes through, station charge and court charge. The police hold you at lockup or out on bail pending investigation on station charge. Any bargaining could and should be done with IO then. He can even drop the charge. Once he charged you in court and you claimed trial, it's harder but not impossible as DPP takes over.

There's not many bargaining chips you're likely to have with DPP except through the skills of your lawyer, since DPP isn't interested in information and investigation, he just takes over the files from IO. At investigation stage, you're more likely to have bargaining chips as with information and confession.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
It is always good to get a lawyer. From experience, they will know what DPP will agree to and what is reasonable. Unfortunately it is also luck. Get a "PG Lawyer" and he will eventually convince you to PG.

Ask your lawyer to make representation to AG and ask him to show you the draft. You can can also prepare a typewritten draft on the grounds that you feel strong about and he can use it to guide him.

There is nothing stopping your brother from writing in but tell the lawyer that he wants to do that. You can type, no problem.



Bro,

1. The way you explained "writing" to AG suggests traditional handwritten format?

2. We are thinking to write in to ask the DPP to drop all the charges altogether. It is because there are some issues that we strongly feel could raise a reasonable doubt in the case that could render the charges "don't stand at all". It sounds silly since the IO would have covered the grounds. But we are sure some of the facts even the IO were not be aware.

3. But with the lawyer attending PTC and asking us (sending a letter to my bro home) no need attend court 17, we are a bit lost.

4. Even if we decide to write, we are not sure who the DPP, then how to write?

5. What if the lawyer gets angry and decide to discharge himself. My bro suddenly unrepresented. Lagi jialat? So far, my bro told me the lawyer is Chinese, so I am 100% sure he's not Ravi!:biggrin:

What would you suggest bro?
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
What you stated is procedural formality. At investigation stage, AGC doesn't know anything and it's up to what the IO reports. The practical power in divisional cases lies in the IO's direct boss, the divisional HI (Head of Investigation).

Of course, bargaining is one thing, but whether you'd get what you bargained for depends on many other factors. In higher profile cases, of course it gets harder. In clear cut evidence cases, of it course it gets impossible.

I don't understand what's your argument about or for. Everyday at police stations, it's a matter of routine that so many cases are downgraded or charges dropped or confessions secured (PGs) without needing to involve DPPs.
 
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alvin36

Alfrescian
Loyal
Bro,

1. The way you explained "writing" to AG suggests traditional handwritten format?

2. We are thinking to write in to ask the DPP to drop all the charges altogether. It is because there are some issues that we strongly feel could raise a reasonable doubt in the case that could render the charges "don't stand at all". It sounds silly since the IO would have covered the grounds. But we are sure some of the facts even the IO were not be aware.

3. But with the lawyer attending PTC and asking us (sending a letter to my bro home) no need attend court 17, we are a bit lost.

4. Even if we decide to write, we are not sure who the DPP, then how to write?

5. What if the lawyer gets angry and decide to discharge himself. My bro suddenly unrepresented. Lagi jialat? So far, my bro told me the lawyer is Chinese, so I am 100% sure he's not Ravi!:biggrin:

What would you suggest bro?


can i suggest you see your MP ? get MP to write for you.

dont forget to bring old parents along to see MP. it is more powerful in this way. MP and grass root people are more careful and helpful in handling old people.

my uncle got into trouble before. and we are advised by our lawyer... to try to get MP to wrtite to AGC.
The MP got write.. and the AGC got reply officially. But didnt help, as AGC refused to drop charge.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Nothing to do with procedures. No police Office however senior can reduce a charge which corresponds with an offence disclosed.

Why don't you write to the SPH forum and ask if the Commissioner of Police can reduce a shoplifting charge to a charge of simple theft without consulting AG Chambers.


What you stated is procedural formality. At investigation stage, AGC doesn't know anything and it's up to what the IO reports. The practical power in divisional cases lies in the IO's direct boss, the divisional HI (Head of Investigation).
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Please don't take this wrongly. Most MP will get their local balls carriers to write the appeal whether there is merit or not. They pretend they are helping the constitutent. To the DPP, who is a professional and member of the Supreme Court, will look at all representation (letters) with merit whether it comes from donkey or not. He is not going to destroy his career because of an MP.

The general practice for grassroots helpers is get their MP to submit a character reference at the time of sentencing in a court. The former newsreader Zahera Latiff who whole family is PAP including her MP sister, Goh Chok Tong wrote a character reference.




can i suggest you see your MP ? get MP to write for you.

dont forget to bring old parents along to see MP. it is more powerful in this way. MP and grass root people are more careful and helpful in handling old people.

my uncle got into trouble before. and we are advised by our lawyer... to try to get MP to wrtite to AGC.
The MP got write.. and the AGC got reply officially. But didnt help, as AGC refused to drop charge.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Nothing to do with procedures. No police Office however senior can reduce a charge which corresponds with an offence disclosed.

You've misunderstood what I meant by bargaining at investigation stage. No police officer would downgrade or drop your charge just because you're glib-tongued at bargaining. That'd open up suspicion of corruption.

What I meant is, the ultimate approval authority is AGC. However, it'd usually take whatever the investigator reports. What are usual cases with possible bargaining chips at investigation stage? Cases involving accomplices and/or multiple-counts. Of course not all cases can be bargained. What are the usual cases of charges dropped at investigation stage? Straight forward NOD, no need to say. Some cases hang in grey areas, e.g. shoplifting, is it intentional or accidental forgetfulness, that's up to IO to decide based on how the accused person convince him, see? It could go either way, legally.
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
You might want to put it properly then. To get the IO onside is material in getting a better outcome. His recommendation does count.




You've misunderstood what I meant by bargaining at investigation stage. No police officer would downgrade or drop your charge just because you're glib-tongued at bargaining. That'd open up suspicion of corruption.

What I meant is, the ultimate approval authority is AGC. However, it'd usually take whatever the investigator reports. What are usual cases with possible bargaining chips at investigation stage? Cases involving accomplices and/or multiple-counts. Of course not all cases can be bargained. What are the usual cases of charges dropped at investigation stage? Straight forward NOD, no need to say. Some cases hang in grey areas, e.g. shoplifting, is it intentional or accidental forgetfulness, that's up to IO to decide based on how the accused person convince him, see? It could go either way, legally.
 
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