Poor Command of History - A Singaporean plight?

[Dreamer1]

I know for sure that Devan Nair,Lim Chin Siong were all members of communist united fronts,including many other Nanyang U students and Chung Cheng,Chinees high students,and also in some other Chinese secondary,not all were communists.

 

[kingrant]

Maybe you should re-read history. The period after the Jap occupation till independence is the part you shld really concentrate on, as that is the formative early pre-LKY years that shaped the post=LKY era.

Given the relatively short and boring nature of Singapore history it is not surprising. Most people who have a keen interest in history tend to either like very old history or the military part of it.

Singapore history can be divided into roughly pre-colonial, colonial, japanese occupation and post independence.

Pre-colonial period are mostly about the malay kingdoms of the region. Of which very few of us can relate to.

Colonial period are mostly about hardworking forebears. Nothing really interesting here.

Japanese occupation is all about suffering and more suffering. Only interesting here is maybe the war part. But given that the battle for Malaya and Singapore was pretty much of one blunder after another...

Post independence is mostly about fighting communism and how the MIW..........(MESSAGE DELETED under ISD orders)

 

[scroobal]

So now we have Chin Peng and Tan Chay Wa that are communists and after 1948 their influence was curtailed.

You may have start from the beginning. The following were left wing parties at that time. PAP has now jumped to the other side of the spectrum.

PAP - led by old man
Labour Front - led by Marshall
Barisan Socialist - led by Lee Siew Choh


The were only 2 right wing parties at that time and they were hopeless even the British gave up on them. .

Progressive Party - led by Richard Lim
Democratic Party - led by the tycoons of Chinese Chamber of Commerce.

Till today, people have no idea what left and leftist means. For some reason, people assume that leftist are trouble makers, pro-communist front etc. Left leaning is also not a derogatory term.

By the way, all the current opposition parties in Singapore are left leaning or leftist.

I don't think this is true.
The influence of the Communist parties since the 1948 emergency was curtailed sharply. There's disagreement as to the power they wielded in Singapore since they were banned, as far as I know.

 

[n1etzche]

A Scion of a wealthy businessman who attended Chinese High revealed the details of his cell which was headed by Chin Siong this included the oath taking. The person was then sent to London to further his studies and then to HK.

banyan boy and his butt ugly spg?

 

[vamjok]

Japanese occupation is all about suffering and more suffering. Only interesting here is maybe the war part. But given that the battle for Malaya and Singapore was pretty much of one blunder after another...

this i had to disagree with you bro, although i hate history in school but i love the reading the portion about ww2 in singapore. it could be considered one of the toughest fight for the japanese. many of the toughest and interesting fights against japan took place in singapore

do you know that if general percival did not give in and surrender, in just 1 more weeks time japanese troop will be forced to surrender if they goes into street fight. this was how close things were that time. damn freaking tight if you were to ask me

 

[sleaguepunter]

do you know that if general percival did not give in and surrender, in just 1 more weeks time japanese troop will be forced to surrender if they goes into street fight. this was how close things were that time. damn freaking tight if you were to ask me

Percival was a weak commander. Despite having outdated equipments comapre to the IJA, the defense force number about 87,000 men compare to the 3 infantry divisions IJA supported by light tanks. Those tanks are no Tigers nor Panther, the 2 pounder infantry gun or the 75mm in the BA arsenal will have no problem knocking them out.
While the indians troops green, there still combat veterans of the 8th Aussie Div plus the 28th infantry Brigade consisting of 1st, 2nd and 9th Gurkha Rifles.

 

[Ramseth]

do you know that if general percival did not give in and surrender, in just 1 more weeks time japanese troop will be forced to surrender if they goes into street fight. this was how close things were that time. damn freaking tight if you were to ask me

That's not the version I know. By direct confrontational number of troops, Gen. Percival outnumbered Gen. Yamashita. However, Japan had Malaya under control and inflicted huge losses to RN Far East Fleet and USN Pacific Fleet, having the sealanes under control too. If you go ask old surviving folks, the question was about food supply. They were reduced to eating potato, tapioca and root wherever they could dig. Yamashita was very smart not to come by the sea (which the British expected) and give the British a chance of overturning the sea disadvantage. The blitzkrieg choking of Malaya (with the cooperation of Thailand) completed the victory. How to fight back when land and sea supply routes were both choked?

 

[Equalisation]

That's not the version I know. By direct confrontational number of troops, Gen. Percival outnumbered Gen. Yamashita. However, Japan had Malaya under control and inflicted huge losses to RN Far East Fleet and USN Pacific Fleet, having the sealanes under control too. If you go ask old surviving folks, the question was about food supply. They were reduced to eating potato, tapioca and root wherever they could dig. Yamashita was very smart not to come by the sea (which the British expected) and give the British a chance of overturning the sea disadvantage. The blitzkrieg choking of Malaya (with the cooperation of Thailand) completed the victory. How to fight back when land and sea supply routes were both choked?

Oi .... U saying I old ???

 

[sleaguepunter]

do you know that if general percival did not give in and surrender, in just 1 more weeks time japanese troop will be forced to surrender if they goes into street fight. this was how close things were that time. damn freaking tight if you were to ask me

Percival was a weak commander. Despite having outdated equipments comapre to the IJA, the defense force number about 87,000 men compare to the 3 infantry divisions IJA supported by light tanks. Those tanks are no Tigers nor Panther, the 2 pounder infantry gun or the 75mm in the BA arsenal will have no problem knocking them out.
While the indians troops green, there still combat veterans of the 8th Aussie Div plus the 28th infantry Brigade consisting of 1st, 2nd and 9th Gurkha Rifles. As the battle raged down the peninsular, the British High Command rush in reinforcements, so by the time IJA reach the straits of johor, the ranks of the defense forces swell to 120,000 men against the 3 IJA infantry divs, no more than 28,000 men which only have 01 week supplies left.
if compare to individual weapons, the IJA 6.5mm rifles are rubbish compare to the .303 enfield rifles. The .303 bren gun was one of the best LMG in the world at that time. in term of artillery, both side evenly match, it only the IJA had air superiority. But that itself should not explain how the IJA can win in such an outright manner.

 

[sleaguepunter]

The part on Marcos is not really true. The Philippine economy actually did quite well for his first term and the early part of his second term. It went downhill after that.

I cited these 3 leaders as all 3 had incorporated "economic miracle" into their mythology. When people stopped experiencing this "economic miracle", support for them faded and they had to resort to all sorts of means to stay in power for the "good" of the people.

i dunno about marcos and suharto but mao was never good in economic. In the begining of PRC, Chen Yi was the economic minister, PRC was doing fine until Mao started the "Great Leap Forward" which cause the PRC economy to fail. Then Chen Yi took over again to reverse the wrong of Mao's action.

 

[Ramseth]

Oi .... U saying I old ???

I say you dirty old man. 老风骚。

 

[Ramseth]

Percival was a weak commander. Despite having outdated equipments comapre to the IJA, the defense force number about 87,000 men compare to the 3 infantry divisions IJA supported by light tanks. Those tanks are no Tigers nor Panther, the 2 pounder infantry gun or the 75mm in the BA arsenal will have no problem knocking them out.

That's not the version I know. By direct confrontational number of troops, Gen. Percival outnumbered Gen. Yamashita. However, Japan had Malaya under control and inflicted huge losses to RN Far East Fleet and USN Pacific Fleet, having the sealanes under control too. If you go ask old surviving folks, the question was about food supply. They were reduced to eating potato, tapioca and root wherever they could dig. Yamashita was very smart not to come by the sea (which the British expected) and give the British a chance of overturning the sea disadvantage. The blitzkrieg choking of Malaya (with the cooperation of Thailand) completed the victory. How to fight back when land and sea supply routes were both choked?

Gen. Percival wasn't weak, he was benevolent and logical. The Japanese wouldn't mind starving millions into surrender. Having all the troops became useless, indeed burden, when supplies of food, fuel and ammos were cut off. RN and USN needed sometime to recover naval advantage. In the meantime, it was choice of dying a hero with millions accompanying or surrender. I think Gen. Percival made the right choice. I also think Gen.Yamashita made the right militarily honourable call to offer that choice. He didn't deserve to be classified Class A war criminal and executed after surrender. However, those were the days of collateral victims of circumstances. The Class AAA war criminal was Tojo Hideki.

 

[sleaguepunter]

what RN huge losses are u toking abt? all RN lost was just 1 battleship and 1 WW1 battelcruiser.
He maybe benevolent but he a no good commander. if he have half a brain, he shd have organised a better defense, failing that, organised a resistance force in the jungle. He fail badly despite having numerical superiority. he could make the campagin costly to the IJA but he didnt.
If he had done so, most of us may not be here but that beside the point as being a commander, he should have exhaust all avenues before hoisting up the white flag. By his failure, he condemned most of the Australian troops to their death as most of them were force to work in the Death railway.

 

[Ramseth]

what RN huge losses are u toking abt? all RN lost was just 1 battleship and 1 WW1 battelcruiser.
He maybe benevolent but he a no good commander. if he have half a brain, he shd have organised a better defense, failing that, organised a resistance force in the jungle. He fail badly despite having numerical superiority. he could make the campagin costly to the IJA but he didnt.

Yes, Gen. Percival lost out in the battle of wits against Gen. Yamashita. Making the campaign costly to Japan would be even costlier to the population of colonies. RN lost two flagships and USN lost a third of their Pacific fleet at Pearl Habor that they even had to abandon Philippines. Japan locked out the entire South China Sea at that time. RN were concentrated on the south of Singapore anticipating another Japanese naval borne attack. It came by land from the north. Who to blame? At war, there's outwitting and outmanoevering against getting outwitted and outmanoevered. The Japanese won that round.

If he had done so, most of us may not be here but that beside the point as being a commander, he should have exhaust all avenues before hoisting up the white flag. By his failure, he condemned most of the Australian troops to their death as most of them were force to work in the Death railway.

Yes, if Gen. Percival persisted in fighting, my grandparents among hundreds of thousands of others would be dead and I wouldn't be here.

 

[red amoeba]

actually its easier to talk now on hindsight where we know the numbers and forces on each side.

at that point in time, given the lack of intel and the fact that the Japs are already crawling all over Singapore converging on Fort Canning, Percival had to make a choice.

And I think he has no choice but to surrender...I seriously doubt if they have the will to fight in any case.

Firstly, Great Britain has already shitted all over her pants and no time to take care of Singapore. Secondly, the locals and British are not really working together. From the history books, the most ferocious defense was put up by ...locals. The Malays and the Chinese - got British or not? Even Slim River in Malaya was defended by Australians.

When did British put up a strong defense? Shows clearly their lack of will to fight and the lack of strategic acumen...sending 2 defenseless battleship without aircover is like walking naked into an army camp =asking to be fucked.

On Yamashita, he called bluff and the British took it. But i think even if he insisted of fighting, the Japs will still prevail ultimately...their will to fight is stronger...only maybe more bloody. And if you look at him and his ferocious face...one shout from him will have Percival cowering in fear...thats why Percival is also called the Rabbit haha...

Yamashita = tiger and Perceival = Rabbit.

 

[aurvandil]

i dunno about marcos and suharto but mao was never good in economic. In the begining of PRC, Chen Yi was the economic minister, PRC was doing fine until Mao started the "Great Leap Forward" which cause the PRC economy to fail. Then Chen Yi took over again to reverse the wrong of Mao's action.

The following is from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chairman_Mao

Following the consolidation of power, Mao launched the First Five-Year Plan (1953–58). The plan aimed to end Chinese dependence upon agriculture in order to become a world power. With the Soviet Union's assistance, new industrial plants were built and agricultural production eventually fell to a point where industry was beginning to produce enough capital that China no longer needed the USSR's support. The success of the First Five Year Plan was to encourage Mao to instigate the Second Five Year Plan, the Great Leap Forward, in 1958. Mao also launched a phase of rapid collectivization. The CPC introduced price controls as well as a Chinese character simplification aimed at increasing literacy. Large scale industrialization projects were also undertaken.

The first Five-Year Plan was actually very sucessful and widely proclaimed as an "economic miracle". It was the Second Five Year Plan and the Great Leap Forward which failed.

On whether Mao came up with it himself ... well ... it is the same as whether MM came up with the economic policies which gave Singapore good economic growth from 1960 to 1990. Till today, PAP mythology paints MM as an economic genius.

 

[cass888]

There was also one other person behind prodding them from behind the scenes in order to undermine the legitimacy of democractically elected Workers Party led by David Marshall and to ensure the failure of the first locally elected govenment.

Gawd. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. The Workers Party was never in government. Until Hougang, the only seat ever held by the Workers Party was Anson by Marshall and JBJ.

 

[scroobal]

Under its previous name - Labour Front. The party that was led by Marshall

Gawd. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. The Workers Party was never in government. Until Hougang, the only seat ever held by the Workers Party was Anson by Marshall and JBJ.

 

[cass888]

Under its previous name - Labour Front. The party that was led by Marshall

Nice attempt at recovery

Labour Front and Workers Party are two different parties. Marshall quit Labour Front in 1957 to form the Workers Party.

 

[Forvendet]

Hi all, my first post. Think Labour Front and Workers' Party are two different things, though David Marshall did lead them at one time or another. DM was Chief Minister as leader of LF, only MP when with WP, then appointed Ambassador to France.