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PAPsmearer’s CPF Q & A

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Ok, so there are a lot of posts and threads here and elsewhere on the CPF and its various flaws. We know what they are, and there is discussion ad nauseam about it. But what actually is CPF, how does it work, why is it set up this way, etc.? This thread is not designed to address how much CPF you can withdraw, or all the various schemes, mainly because each individual’s situation is different and the PAP keeps shifting the goalposts. So without much further ado, ………………………………………….

What is the CPF?

The Central Provident Fund was set up in July 1st 1955 by the British Colonial Govt. (yes the Brits, not the PAP) who envision it as a compulsory savings plan for retirement. It is legislated into law as The Central Provident Fund Act, and consists of a CPF Board and the actual funds. The Board handles the administration of the funds and overseas the operations of the CPF.

Who is on the Board of CPF?

Constitutionally, the CPF board is set up to have a balance between the Govt, Employers and employees. As such, 2 members of the Board must represent the govt., 2 from the employers, and 2 from the employees. This was envisioned as an internal check and balance. But is it? Well, both the employee representatives, Joshua Loy (NTUC Union Centric OTSI) and Ma Wei Ching (Amalgamated Union of Public Employees) are affiliated with and work for NTUC organizations. NTUC itself is dominated by govt. appointees and share the same bed. So, we will hardly expect an independent representation from these 2. The 2 representatives for the employers are Lim Suet Wun (sounds familiar? She is the sister in law of the Prime Minister), and John Ng (CEO of government owned Singapore LNG). Guess who these 2 “employer” representatives will vote with? In other words, the whole board is set up with govt. insiders and representatives. Now ask yourself why it was so easy to keep passing Board resolutions allowing for low interest rates, larger minimum sums, and other various activities detrimental to the plan holders.

What is the CPF entity?

Is it a limited company? Is it a GLC? Is it an NGO? It turns out that CPF is a statutory board set up as a Trust.

Establishment of Central Provident Fund
6.
—(1) For the purposes of this Act, there shall be established a fund to be called the Central Provident Fund into which shall be paid all contributions authorised under this Act and out of which shall be met all payments authorised to be paid under this Act.
(2) The Board shall be the trustee of the Fund and all moneys belonging to the Fund may be —


Therefore, CPF (more specifically the CPF Board) is the trustee of our money and we are the beneficiaries. As Trustees, they have a fiduciary duty to safeguard and manage our retirement funds and give us the highest possible return on it. The big question is “Have they fulfilled their fiduciary duty?”.

What does CPF do with our money?

The CPF takes the money you give them every month and keeps a portion for withdrawals. For example, we know that all departing PRs are withdrawing at least $400 million a year, as well, plan holders are withdrawing money for HDB flat down payments and month mortgage payments. It turns out that fully 50% of all CPF contributions is withdrawn every year. The remaining funds are loaned to the government through the purchase of Special Singapore Government Securities (SSGS). The govt. pays an interest ranging from 2.5% - 5.0% on these SSGS. Here, CPF falls on its face when it comes to Fiduciary duties. The CPF constitution allows it to invest in a broad range of investments, including simply depositing it with the banks. Nowhere does it say it has to buy only SSGS. Imagine if you left all your retirement funds with your financial advisor, and he puts all the money into only one type of investment, and that investment pays only 2.5%. You would fire him, right? But the CPF insists that it will only loan its money to one type of investment, the SSGS. Be very sure on this. In the relationship that CPF has with the govt. it’s a relationship of borrower and lender. CPF lends its funds to the govt. and the govt. borrows the money from them and pays an interest.

What does the Govt do with the CPF money it borrowed?


It transfers the money mostly to GIC and leaves some with MAS. It is claimed that no CPF funds go to Temasek. So basically, the Govt. (the borrower) comes to CPF (the lender) to borrow money to put into its business (GIC), so that the business (GIC) can earn a good return and in turn enables the borrower to repay the loan with interest. If CPF was a commercial bank, it would do due diligence on the borrower to examine the borrower’s creditworthiness and the soundness and viability of his business. Well, the credit worthiness of the Govt. (even though it has the highest level of indebtedness among first world countries) is not the real issue. The issue is the profitability of GIC and the ability of GIC to repay the funds that the govt. has transferred to it from its sale of SSGS. The 20 year annualized return of GIC is only 4%. That is astoundingly low. How can a borrower pay 2.5%-5% for the funds that it borrows and earns only 4% annually? Not to mention that the borrower’s company has suffered billions of dollars in losses from UBS, and even as recently, over $675 million last year in the Stuyvesant real estate deal in New York. Most commercial lenders I know would have called the loan long ago.

But the Govt. will always be able to repay the SSGS with interest when they mature

Yes, and no. The govt. according to the CPF Act cannot just print more money or issue govt. bonds to raise money to repay the SSGS. It cannot use any tax revenues or sales of any assets to repay the SSGS. This is very clear, the CPF was designed with a separation component so that the govt. funds and assets are not comingle with the retirement fund. The only mechanism in place for the govt. to repay the SSGS is through GIC transferring funds back to the Govt. in order for it to allow CPF to redeem the SSGS. Well, what happens when GIC is losing money? Will it have to liquidate assets to pay the govt, back.? How will it do that if its assets are in companies and are illiquid?

Why is the CPF Board ok with a 2.5% interest for our money?

This is another fail in their fiduciary duty. You can buy 7 year corporate bonds issued by GLCs like SIA for a yield of 3.175% or 10 year notes at 3.75%. SIA has a high credit rating just like the Singapore Govt. Which trustee would deliberately take a lower return on their funds for no apparent reason, and consider themselves to be doing their duty? The whole board should be sued in court through a class action lawsuit. The People of Singapore VS CPF Board. The lack of oversight and fiduciary duty is criminal as far as I can see. These boards members are placed there through obvious conflict of interest, and merrily collect their directors fees while selling everyone down the river. They should all be sued individually and collectively.

What is the alternative?

CPF should manage its own funds, as that was what it was set up to do. Not pass the management of the fund off to GIC or through the Singapore govt. You don’t need a whole room full of investment analysts like GIC does to do due diligence on dubious companies that they lose money on. You can park the funds with large reputable companies and negotiate a volume discount for their MERs. According to Kiplinger, the Fidelity Large Company fund has a 20 year return of 9.7%, as well as a one year return of 29.17%. Vanguard has a fund that has a 20 year return of 12.76%. Anything earned by CPF through its own direct investments should be added back into the plan holder's accounts. By allowing the govt. to use GIC, it has in effect created another bureaucracy with its attendent overhead. It’s incredible that part of CPF’s duties is not to review other investment alternatives on a regular basis. CPF has allowed itself to be turned into a piggy bank for the PAP.
 
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chongpangchixwings

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Looking at the measly 2.5 % interest that we get annually, even if we lost 1% per annum, thats a huge amount lost in principal and interest through one's economic life. I guess we have to consider it as another form of tax to our already heavy tax burden.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Looking at the measly 2.5 % interest that we get annually, even if we lost 1% per annum, thats a huge amount lost in principal and interest through one's economic life. I guess we have to consider it as another form of tax to our already heavy tax burden.

Its more than a 1% loss. the inflation rate is on average greater than the CPF rate of interest. So, actually u are losing money. You have a negative return.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
bro u really got alot time to write these wall of texts day after day.

do u have a job?

Takes me around an hour to do this. It relaxes me before i face the day. Its like a morning coffee, gets your brain working and running up to speed.
 

Lionheart

Alfrescian
Loyal
Takes me around an hour to do this. It relaxes me before i face the day. Its like a morning coffee, gets your brain working and running up to speed.

your brain filled with morning shit
cpf is not your cup of tea
guessing here and there is what you did
put your head below esher toilet seat
 

Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
Why is the CPF Board ok with a 2.5% interest for our money?

This is another fail in their fiduciary duty. You can buy 7 year corporate bonds issued by GLCs like SIA for a yield of 3.175% or 10 year notes at 3.75%. SIA has a high credit rating just like the Singapore Govt.

For those who are not happy with the risk free 2.5%, all these options are already available to any CPF member under the CPF investment scheme plus there is always the option to buy property which historically has yielded excellent returns.

http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/Members/Gen-Info/Sch-Svc/Asset_Enhancement.htm
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
For those who are not happy with the risk free 2.5%, All these options are already available to any CPF member under the CPF investment scheme plus there is always the option to buy property which historically has yielded excellent returns.

http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/Members/Gen-Info/Sch-Svc/Asset_Enhancement.htm

It is nice on paper but ...click on the ETF section, you see blank. Looks like any tom, dick or harry can be included on the list, regardless of the cost. So, how many CPF contributor are financially literate enough to work through them? At the end of the day, many will just take the government's miserly offer, not because of choice.
 

halsey02

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Which moron in CPF does not know, what CPF is? no need to explain & how much interest they get, what they can do with their money in there before their retirement age.

ALL WE ALL WANT IS THE ORIGINAL WAY CPF MONEY IS DISBURSED WHEN WE RETIRE. period!. CPF members up to around 1984 or 1985, were still able to withdraw all their retirement money, I have colleagues retiring in those years. Over the many years...they added the min sum, started moving the bar to 65 - 67 & now they propose, 69 or 70?? or what?

Can we trust a government for another 50 years...who have free flow inflow of people's money & free hand holding onto them, for as long as possible??

We want our MONEY AT RETIREMENT....if we want to leave them behind, let us have that choice & WHATEVER WE DO WITH OUR MONEY. OUR BUSINESS...WE DO NOT NEED A NANNY.

All can explain till the cow come home....WE WANT OUR MONEY .
 

M113tankee

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Papsmearer,
Is the CPF bankrupt? If today everyone above 55 is allowed to withdraw their CPF monies without any terms and conditions attached, do CPF have enough cash to pay them all?
 

mojito

Alfrescian
Loyal
I think Papsmearer is trying to say, you got this one chow kuan relative, borrow your money go gamble, win he take all, lose he ask for more tell you sure pay back later. Why you so kum gong lend him money never ask what he gonna do with your money? Even if you don't ask, at least get him to share the winnings lah.
 

escher

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
bro u really got alot time to write these wall of texts day after day.

do u have a job?

COPY AND PASTE IS SO MUCH EASIER





IT VERY CLEAR THAT THE FUCKING PAPs ARE SCREWING AND SUEING THE SINGAPOREANS
AND NOT JUST ROY

PAPs ARE ATTACKING SINGAPOREANS BY THIS ATTACK ON ROY
PAPs ARE FIXING THEIR PIANO WIRES AROUND THE NECKS OF SINGAPOREANS
PAPs ARE FIXING THE NECKLACE OF BURNING CAR TYRES ON THE NECKS OF SINGAPOREANS
WILL SINGAPOREANS REMAIN HEAD DOWN DOWN AND ARSEHOLES UP HIGH HIGH FOR PAPs TO FUCK
AND TO TIEW AND TO TIE PIANO WIRES?
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH


Hang those PAP maggots cockroaches with piano wires from lamp posts to make them dance before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.
BBQ those PAP maggots cockroaches before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.
Cut a few more arseholes into those PAP maggots cockroaches to let out their shit before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.
Make those PAP maggots cockroaches eat joss sticks and candle wax before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.



GET RID OF THE POISON IN SINGAPORE
HANG ALL THOSE FUCKING PAPs AND THEIR COLLABORATORS
BBQ THE BASTARD PAPs

AND SINGAPORE CAN BE AS GOOD IF NOT BETTER THAN SWITZERLAND

OR REMAIN HEAD DOWN DOWN AND ARSEHOLES UP HIGH HIGH TO BE FUCKED TO BE TIEWED TO BE KANNED BY THE PAP MAGGOTS COCKROACHES

Kill them all PAPs
Let GOD sort out the good from the really bad ones
The good PAPs can then eat joss sticks and candle wax from time to time
The bad PAPs like smear of shit on sole of shoe LKY will be raped and tiewed and kanned by legions of ghouls and demons and not ever
get time off to eat joss sticks and candle wax

Hang those PAP maggots cockroaches with piano wires from lamp posts to make them dance before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.

BBQ those PAP maggots cockroaches before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.

Cut a few more arseholes into those PAP maggots cockroaches to let out their shit before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.

Make those PAP maggots cockroaches eat joss sticks and candle wax before it is too late and we have no more CPF to get back.


None of those in PAP work for anyone but that smear of shit on sole of shoe LKY, to help him hold down Singaporeans to screw and fuck hundreds of BILLIONs from us all into smear of shit on sole of shoe LKY stinkapore sovereign funds.

They are there in PAP because LKY know that they are a bunch of self serving greedy bastards and scrapings of scums of society. To call them maggots cockroaches will be to insult real maggots and real cockroaches.
LKY will never allow good decent people into the PAP and good decent people will not want to get into the PAP.
Maggots and cockroaches are appointed as ministers in parliament
Kangaroos are frolicking in High Court instead of being allowed to wander and roam about in the Zoo

And lowest scums of society known for their vicious self interest driven greed are preaching to sinkies on morality and elitism.
Those in PAP are the most corrupt and moral degenerates and moral bankrupts and moral filths that are being presented to stinkaporeans as moral compasses.
Despite the leeching and fucking of singaporeans by the cheebye PAP and LKY, Singapore still managed to survive to date.
Despite their being hung as a fucking millstones around the necks of Singaporeans and the idiocy and corrupt manipulations of PAP and LKY, Singapore still not dead yet.

WE ALL ARE NOW WAITING FOR THE DEATH OF LKY IN COMING DAYS OR WEEKS.
WE ALL WILL YUM SENG AND YUM SENG AND YUM SENG AGAIN AND AGAIN DANCING SINGING ON TABLE TOPS AND STREETS

WE THEN WILL SEE THOSE IN PAP WITH SHARPENED KNIVES HOOTING ARSEHLOON A DOZEN NEW ARSEHOLES AND THE DEATH OF THE ENTIRE LEE KWA CLAN

WE THEN WILL PICK UP PIANO WIRES AND HANG ALL THOSE REMAINING PAP AND THEIR COLLABORATORS FROM LAMP POSTS AND SEE THOSE BASTARDS AND BITCHES DANCE.
AND HAPPINESS WILL RETURN TO OUR LAND.

AND STINKAPORE WILL BECOME SINGAPORE ONCE MORE.

https://www.torproject.org/about/overview.html.en
 

soIsee

Alfrescian
Loyal
So directly or indirectly Loong did 'misappropriate' the funds as Roy put it as he sits on the board and has direct control and all links to CPF.

Although CPF has failed in their fiduciary duties not once but on more than one occasion, there will not be resolution until Ah Loong and company gets voted out.

The problem now exist for the Sinkie becos Ah Loong have linked all his various gov agencies thru cronyism and even agencies which are private, seems to think they have to do his bidding.

This is the price you pay when you allow one old Fart and now his son, to create thru 40 over years, that all the entities which are supposed to be separate ARE BEHOLDEN to do his biddings.
 

soIsee

Alfrescian
Loyal

halsey02

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
So directly or indirectly Loong did 'misappropriate' the funds as Roy put it as he sits on the board and has direct control and all links to CPF.

Although CPF has failed in their fiduciary duties not once but on more than one occasion, there will not be resolution until Ah Loong and company gets voted out.

The problem now exist for the Sinkie becos Ah Loong have linked all his various gov agencies thru cronyism and even agencies which are private, seems to think they have to do his bidding.

This is the price you pay when you allow one old Fart and now his son, to create thru 40 over years, that all the entities which are supposed to be separate ARE BEHOLDEN to do his biddings.

Can we trust these people for another 50 years?? this is free flow funds & they are "freely" using these funds. By implementing min sum, they are 'covering' up the losses in whatever investments over the years & delaying the payment of CPF money, for they know, those from 55-65 & above now..., how many years have they got? & the younger ones, by the time they reach 55-65, the min sum will be around $1,000,000...which they would not be able to meet...

We want our money now...at RETIREMENT.
 

johnny333

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
So directly or indirectly Loong did 'misappropriate' the funds as Roy put it as he sits on the board and has direct control and all links to CPF.

Although CPF has failed in their fiduciary duties not once but on more than one occasion, there will not be resolution until Ah Loong and company gets voted out.

The problem now exist for the Sinkie becos Ah Loong have linked all his various gov agencies thru cronyism and even agencies which are private, seems to think they have to do his bidding.

This is the price you pay when you allow one old Fart and now his son, to create thru 40 over years, that all the entities which are supposed to be separate ARE BEHOLDEN to do his biddings.



The PAP is definitely out of control. Where else in the world do you have the wife of a PM controlling large amouts of $$$$ which is in reality public money:rolleyes:
When they started to pay themselves million dollar salaries alarm bells should have gone off.

The sad thing is that the PAP will probably win another GE because there aren't enough opposition members out there to oppose them :(
 

halsey02

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
The PAP is definitely out of control. Where else in the world do you have the wife of a PM controlling large amouts of $$$$ which is in reality public money:rolleyes:
When they started to pay themselves million dollar salaries alarm bells should have gone off.

The sad thing is that the PAP will probably win another GE because there aren't enough opposition members out there to oppose them :(

Don't forget, father, sister, brother, uncles, aunties, cousins.....you connect all the dots, you would not be surprised! are you?:rolleyes:
 

Equalisation

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
The PAP is definitely out of control. Where else in the world do you have the wife of a PM controlling large amouts of $$$$ which is in reality public money:rolleyes:
When they started to pay themselves million dollar salaries alarm bells should have gone off.

The sad thing is that the PAP will probably win another GE because there aren't enough opposition members out there to oppose them :(

Agree.

Give us back all OUR CPF money at age 55 NOWWW!!:mad:

Damn it ! It is OUR hard-earned blood and sweat money from years of toiling !!:mad:
 

halsey02

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Agree.

Give us back all OUR CPF money at age 55 NOWWW!!:mad:

Damn it ! It is OUR hard-earned blood and sweat money from years of toiling !!:mad:

Encik! you forgot to add tears...BLOOD, SWEAT & TEARS money, from being PRODUCTIVE & work for more than 30 years, since one start working & more years...toiling away!.

Money Masuk, KELUAR.....wait long, loong time!!.
 
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