PAP struggling with WP's multi-prong attack.

[Goh Meng Seng]

The truth is, one should be very careful when making such comments. It is OPEN to interpretations and fair game to all.


Goh Meng Seng

You're out of depth with someone deeper than you. See bold underline above. Thats in context of dynastic politics. Nows in context of democratic politics.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I agree with you in principle, the use of "在这国会的任期里" is very clever. It may mean by next GE, WP will be the Emperor and PAP Wei Zheng.

But there is actually a better way of putting the same idea right without putting WP itself as a subject of PAP.

Goh Meng Seng

GMS, you should read carefully his exact words "在这国会的任期里". In this parliamentary period of five years, can any analogy of ruler and advisers have any other players than the ruling party and opposition MPs. If the opposition MPs are not there to offer alternative opinions to national issues, what are they there for. CSM said he was a patriot, meaning that whatever he would contribute in parliament will be for the common good of the nation. What you are saying that is of secondary importance. He should be promoting his own party's interest. I think you asked the right question: if it is possible to form a majority govt, will WP and NSP form a coalition? I believe their answer will be NO if GMS is still around. A coalition can be formed not because the numbers fit but because there is a common objective. How can "to serve the common good for the people" and "to serve party's interest" be similar?

 

[ssrrvv11]

I agree with you in principle, the use of "在这国会的任期里" is very clever. It may mean by next GE, WP will be the Emperor and PAP Wei Zheng.

But there is actually a better way of putting the same idea right without putting WP itself as a subject of PAP.

Goh Meng Seng

gms,

better your arse lah. what the fuck u know? u r nothing but 1 big loser. lose in GE. support tkl even bigger loser.

 

[zhihau]

pap more likely to jio gms's party as it a party form by different interest group so more easy for pap to control.

bullseye! the sympathy card can be played as well, me think sheep very sentimental lot

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear Scroobal,

I agree with your assessment but under one condition, if and only if there is no all out 3 corner fights everywhere. If this can be achieved, it would be more than 1 GRC and 1 SMC.

However, it seems that it will take someone "like PAP" or practically "was PAP" to effectively draw blood on PAP's middle ground votes. This is apparent from PE2011. The irony is, when there is such alternative, the hardcore anti-PAP votes will be voting somebody else if there is a 3 corner fight. This is actually a danger sign for WP actually.

Goh Meng Seng

Let be delighted that we have this many number of good people in opposition. A scenario that many did not contemplate anytime soon. Though virgins, they have conducted themselves very well. Ignore the little errors if any and to focus on how to get this govt to start listening to its own people.

The fall of another GLC and SMC is on the cards. Other opposition parties need to work on their own game to keep eroding the PAP's voter base. The PE is a clear signal that time is here. I am sure many did not imagine a majority of 35% for a PAP candidate. Not only that, he nearly did not make it, despite being DPM, a long standing member of the cabinet and a blue blood.

We need to take a leaf out of Nicole Seah's little book of gung ho adventurism. This is a young lady who left her opponent traumatised and a former PM pleading his case on a poor performance. She was the talk of the GE. She was no scholar, clearly wet behind the years but carried the ground. She did not get a PAP MP to get his wife to employ her neither did she have a huge machinary behind her.

The PAP is clearly lost at sea. Its new intake of MPs are more in the frame of charlatans. An adultress, with a hubby that was taken to the bankruptcy court by her own company, a leach whose aspiration is to visit Universal studio, a FT that thinks that NS is not as important as his vocation etc. Let also not forget the sexual predator that nearly became an PAP MP.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

In time to come, you will see clearer why certain things are put up for discussions. But for the moment, it is a kind of assessment here. You can see that those little nasty WP insects are getting excited and nervous about certain things being discussed here. Why?

I am also a practical man and yes, there is no way any opposition party could win without the middle ground votes. No doubt about that. The balancing act is to have split personalities to appeal to both the extreme vs centrists.

Goh Meng Seng

I don't see anything wrong with this. U want to be totally different from PAP and that would only means you are going to end up speaking to people who will vote for any dog over PAP and no one else.

I am anti pap but I am also practical. U can't win election without winning the middle ground voters. like it or not we are just a small minority and depending on the hardcore 30% opposition voters will means u are going to end up like SDP or RP. U need to fight for the centrist voters and consolidate as many opposition support base as possible. This isn't politicking but simple maths. Surely you know this reality but mischievously try to stir shit against fellow opposition for some unknown reasons.

 

[Fook Seng]

I agree with you in principle, the use of "在这国会的任期里" is very clever. It may mean by next GE, WP will be the Emperor and PAP Wei Zheng.

But there is actually a better way of putting the same idea right without putting WP itself as a subject of PAP.

Goh Meng Seng

The Minister as a subject of the Emperor is your interpretation of his key message. When you draw analogy from the past, you cannot avoid having people who held divergent views and having influencing powers as ministers of the throne and therefore subjects of the Emperor. In fact everyone was subject to the Emperor, including the common people. In today's world, subjects can be interpreted as the populace and officials of the court can be the Ministers and MP's of today. More important is to read the gist of CSM's analogy. All he was saying was take our contributions (as we are MPs) as what wise rulers in the past had done and the country would flourish. He was not saying that the ruling party is Tang Tai Zong but if they can accept divergent views of the opposition MPs, they can be in the class of past great leaders. Whether the ruling party can or cannot do that, only they can determine that. CSM has to assert also that he is a patriot and that his views are sincerely for the good of the nation. It is important that he explicitly said this as there is already too much noise from the Opposition camp that their sole purpose was to overthrow the government and find personal glory. There is a difference between an opposition MP and an unelected opposition party member. The latter can say whatever he wants to discredit the government and in political rallies everybody does it including WP but once you are elected, you have an additional role which is to contribute to the governance of the country, or at least to influence it, and you can only do it through credible and workable contributions. You can see how even TJS shifted from a more confrontational stance to a more unifying image after TCB when the money is on the line towards the end of the PE. Whether the subject can eventually rise to become the ruler depends on how credible your contributions are and how you can persuade the populace to believe in you , not by who you say you are.

 

[zhihau]

Whether the subject can eventually rise to become the ruler depends on how credible your contributions are and how you can persuade the populace to believe in you , not by who you say you are.

bingo! moving right along, public perception can be easily manipulated. subliminal messages

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

The Minister as a subject of the Emperor is your interpretation of his key message. When you draw analogy from the past, you cannot avoid having people who held divergent views and having influencing powers as ministers of the throne and therefore subjects of the Emperor. In fact everyone was subject to the Emperor, including the common people. In today's world, subjects can be interpreted as the populace and officials of the court can be the Ministers and MP's of today. More important is to read the gist of CSM's analogy. All he was saying was take our contributions (as we are MPs) as what wise rulers in the past had done and the country would flourish. He was not saying that the ruling party is Tang Tai Zong but if they can accept divergent views of the opposition MPs, they can be in the class of past great leaders.

I think you are stretching a bit too far. He has literally said let PAP be the Emperor while "they" be Wei Zheng. No matter under what context, that has been said and done.

It is ok for people try to explain, interpret, dissect or even twist a bit to justify an end. But even with that, the key message is still not lost, the idea that WP MPs are there to help PAP to govern better, Emperor or no Emperor, subject or no subject. This is basically the bare bone gist of the message.

Yes, some people may be happy to hear that, glad that WP is "constructive" in helping PAP to govern better, put up better policies etc. But there will be another group which does not think so.

There is a fine thin line between "defending the interests of the people" vs "helping the ruling party to govern better", not merely on how you interpret or say it, but on practical actions as well. Both may serve the same ends, to improve the people's life but in practice, could be very different.

A kind of strange when opposition MPs are subtly "pleading" the ruling party to "listen" to them and believe that they are there to help them!

Goh Meng Seng

 

[3_M]

In time to come, you will see clearer why certain things are put up for discussions. But for the moment, it is a kind of assessment here. You can see that those little nasty WP insects are getting excited and nervous about certain things being discussed here. Why?

I am also a practical man and yes, there is no way any opposition party could win without the middle ground votes. No doubt about that. The balancing act is to have split personalities to appeal to both the extreme vs centrists.

Goh Meng Seng

good that you agree the need to win the middle ground. The idea is on competition for centrist votes with PAP while retaining as much of your support base. It a delicate balancing act and I don't think u are being too helpful here by sowed discord amongst oppositions.

There are many ways to attack PAP, NSP is free to walk their own path so is WP or other parties. If you think by acting more opposition is the way forward win over the centrists, u are free to pursue that course. No need to force or lecture others. Ultimately we will see who reach their destination first.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

What do you mean I am sowing discord among oppositions? I didn't. As I have said and many other non-WP opposition members would agree with me, WP has deliberately maintained a far distance from other opposition parties. This is definitely not my doing.

By next GE, we would see things clearer. I am just putting up WP MP's ideas up for discussions. While I am against PAP and its policies, but we should also be mindful of what opposition MPs are saying in parliament.

Goh Meng Seng

good that you agree the need to win the middle ground. The idea is on competition for centrist votes with PAP while retaining as much of your support base. It a delicate balancing act and I don't think u are being too helpful here by sowed discord amongst oppositions.

There are many ways to attack PAP, NSP is free to walk their own path so is WP or other parties. If you think by acting more opposition is the way forward win over the centrists, u are free to pursue that course. No need to force or lecture others. Ultimately we will see who reach their destination first.

 

[Fook Seng]

I think you are stretching a bit too far. He has literally said let PAP be the Emperor while "they" be Wei Zheng. No matter under what context, that has been said and done.

It is ok for people try to explain, interpret, dissect or even twist a bit to justify an end. But even with that, the key message is still not lost, the idea that WP MPs are there to help PAP to govern better

Goh Meng Seng

I have to borrow your quote of his speech again: "希望明理的执政党可以做唐太宗". Hope that an enlightened ruling party can be like a Tang Tai Zong. He did not say that the ruling party is enlightened. He only hoped that there was such an enlightened ruler. Why did he hope? Because he hoped that his divergent views would be heard and adopted in the policy making. That is what MPs are supposed to do - make laws that will benefit the citizens, not be there to bash the govt or to bash the opposition MPs. This does not mean he is helping any party to govern. MPs don't govern, they make laws. The Govt governs. Unlike GMS who tries very hard to read between the lines to make his point, the people knows who contributes what. As for bashing the ruling party and the govt, non-elected members of the Opposition can do that. Even WP can and will likely do that but not in parliament because they have a duty to serve the people, to make laws, not just to entertain.

 

[GoldenDragon]

What do you mean I am sowing discord among oppositions? I didn't. As I have said and many other non-WP opposition members would agree with me, WP has deliberately maintained a far distance from other opposition parties. This is definitely not my doing.

By next GE, we would see things clearer. I am just putting up WP MP's ideas up for discussions. While I am against PAP and its policies, but we should also be mindful of what opposition MPs are saying in parliament.

Goh Meng Seng

Being ex-WP and someone of some standing in WP, can you enlighten us as to why WP 'deliberately maintained a far distance from other opposition parties? It is definitely not your doing, that we know coz you are not in a position to do so. But, honestly, there must be some compelling reasons for WP to adopt their position. Please share.

 

[3_M]

What do you mean I am sowing discord among oppositions? I didn't. As I have said and many other non-WP opposition members would agree with me, WP has deliberately maintained a far distance from other opposition parties. This is definitely not my doing.

By next GE, we would see things clearer. I am just putting up WP MP's ideas up for discussions. While I am against PAP and its policies, but we should also be mindful of what opposition MPs are saying in parliament.

Goh Meng Seng

Most opposition supporters don't care about which opposition party and I suppose those so called 'non wp'supporters are really the minority amongst opposition supporters.

Let face it, u will be doing the same thing if u re in WP position. U need political branding to compete with PAP for the middle ground.

 

[zhihau]

U need political branding to compete with PAP for the middle ground.

whoever forges the Singaporean identity closest to my dreams would win my vote :p:p:p

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear 3M,

You are mistaken. By the look of PE2011, this is not the case.

Goh Meng Seng

Most opposition supporters don't care about which opposition party and I suppose those so called 'non wp'supporters are really the minority amongst opposition supporters.

Let face it, u will be doing the same thing if u re in WP position. U need political branding to compete with PAP for the middle ground.

 

[brocoli]

Let be delighted that we have this many number of good people in opposition. A scenario that many did not contemplate anytime soon. Though virgins, they have conducted themselves very well. Ignore the little errors if any and to focus on how to get this govt to start listening to its own people.

The fall of another GLC and SMC is on the cards. Other opposition parties need to work on their own game to keep eroding the PAP's voter base. The PE is a clear signal that time is here. I am sure many did not imagine a majority of 35% for a PAP candidate. Not only that, he nearly did not make it, despite being DPM, a long standing member of the cabinet and a blue blood.

We need to take a leaf out of Nicole Seah's little book of gung ho adventurism. This is a young lady who left her opponent traumatised and a former PM pleading his case on a poor performance. She was the talk of the GE. She was no scholar, clearly wet behind the years but carried the ground. She did not get a PAP MP to get his wife to employ her neither did she have a huge machinary behind her.

The PAP is clearly lost at sea. Its new intake of MPs are more in the frame of charlatans. An adultress, with a hubby that was taken to the bankruptcy court by her own company, a leach whose aspiration is to visit Universal studio, a FT that thinks that NS is not as important as his vocation etc. Let also not forget the sexual predator that nearly became an PAP MP.

scroobal should know that nicole is a 1 hit wonder ... if she get into parliament, can she make it ???

i doubt so ... only WP have the resources to be in parliament... even if other parties get a seat, they will just set back oppsition cause by decades....

1st because they dun have the resources

2nd because they dun hav parliamnetary exp.

3rd and most important because they dun have unity and discipline in the party... NSP cant even have a nited stand on the PE...

no matter huat GMS say about tyrant it just show directionless...!!!

up my points.

 

[brocoli]

Dear 3M,

You are mistaken. By the look of PE2011, this is not the case.

Goh Meng Seng

on the contratry we have seen that for the PE,

we see the rise of rational voters...

real opp voters will not vote for anything but WP because the rest simply cannot make it...

real opp voters will not give none WP party a chance because they will damage opp chance

up moi points if you like !!!

 

[Rogue Trader]

GMS, no offense... but any opposition figure will keep distance from you.

 

[brocoli]

GMS, no offense... but any opposition figure will keep distance from you.

if GMS is a true patriot and truly anti PAP,... he will stop opposing WP in public....

i wonder who get more $$$ from ISD, CHee or Tan Jee Say or Goh Meng Seng ???