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New Romance of 3 Kingdom serial drama is out
- Thread starter Alamaking
- Start date
Your persistent opinion on ZhuGe is poor war strategist is mystifying.Well said, as i've said before, his greatest achievements was on his later part of his life, as the Prime Minister of Shu.
So is Zhuge a great strategist in wars? to me, i dun think so
Especially if we are talking about ROTK.
The author clearly tried to portray ZhuGe is paramount in war strategies in the novel. Even ShiMa Yi acknowledged he is not in the same league.
That he failed 6 times in his campaign against Wei can be ascribed to many reasons - fate, others' mistakes etc. Not entirely due to his incompetence vis-a-vis his opponents e.g. even in his mistaken appt of that empty vessel Gen Ma, ZhuGe did excellent damage control by using his 'Kong Chen Ji'.
Another sticking point is your opinion that Lu Su is the master behind CiBi Victory. He may be the one to propose an alliance, but if you read the novel, it is ZhuGe who visited Wu to firm up SunQuan's determination for alliance & solve all the teething problems in the run-up to D-Day.
Of course, it may not be historically 100% accurate, but like I said, I am only referring to all that is written in the ROTK. In ROTK, Lu Su is the likeable straight chap but given the run-around by ZhuGe.
LOL, at least you've said with what you believed in with some humility, that i can accept. I cant stand people think they go ChengDu, look down on people who never been there and think he knows everything about TK. HE STILL CAN SAY HE WATCHED VCD 4 TIMES LEH!!! I very scaredYour persistent opinion on ZhuGe is poor war strategist is mystifying.
Especially if we are talking about ROTK.
The author clearly tried to portray ZhuGe is paramount in war strategies in the novel. Even ShiMa Yi acknowledged he is not in the same league.
That he failed 6 times in his campaign against Wei can be ascribed to many reasons - fate, others' mistakes etc. Not entirely due to his incompetence vis-a-vis his opponents e.g. even in his mistaken appt of that empty vessel Gen Ma, ZhuGe did excellent damage control by using his 'Kong Chen Ji'.
Another sticking point is your opinion that Lu Su is the master behind CiBi Victory. He may be the one to propose an alliance, but if you read the novel, it is ZhuGe who visited Wu to firm up SunQuan's determination for alliance & solve all the teething problems in the run-up to D-Day.
Of course, it may not be historically 100% accurate, but like I said, I am only referring to all that is written in the ROTK. In ROTK, Lu Su is the likeable straight chap but given the run-around by ZhuGe.
As for Zhuge during Chibi, Ying Zhong Tian did mentioned that Zhuge acted as "Foreign Minister" and he's good at talking (BS and Flattering lah, LOL), the Fire strategy was not by him nor Zhou Yu also, i believed it's Huang Gai idea.
Expedition to Hanzhong and Ba Shu, Liu Bei left Guan Yu and Zhuge at Jing Zou, only brought Fa Zhen and Pang Tong along, only in the midway Zhuge left to join them. If Zhuge is so trusted by Liu Bei, why didnt Liu Bei bring him along in the 1st place? That i dunno lah :p:p
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Interpretations, Interpretations .... Yi Zhong Tian is an academic so his reading between the lines & deductions are authoritative but at the end of the day, it's one man's point of view suitably backed by his copious research.
Talking cock is an art. 装神弄鬼 by KongMing in Wu in his duels with ZhouYu is also a form of psychological warfare & mindgames. It's true 黄盖 in the novel was the one who first propose using fire. But then not everything must Kong Ming 出面 right? The fire idea was obvious to those in the Cao Camp as well, but Cao pondered & dismissed it due to the direction of the winds. But his meteorological knowledge not as in depth, he is unaware of the decisive change of winds at the critical time of D-Day.
As for Pang Tong - really brought back memories. I read ROTK in novel & picture book form in the 70s as a school boy. When I read that Liu Bei now had the service of both 龙凤 (KongMing & PangTong), I thought, hor seh leow ! Got top combat heroes & now top strategists of the land !
So, for Liu Bei to leave KongMing behind & bring Pang Tong, I thought ok what ! Both also same level of reputation....
In adult years, upon hearing YiZhongTian's analysis, ok fair enough, very plausible Liu Bei by & by has hubris & not totally levelling with KongMing - trust not 100% is very possible. Probably, he knows if h is not around, martial-minded Guan Yu may benefit from KongMing's presence more, who knows? credible also right ?
Anyway, novelist demonises their villians & eulogized their heroes.
Later from a real-politik point of view, I began to appreciate CaoCao's political acumen. Personal views against his inhumanity like the way subok described - fair enough, inhuman etc. But for warlords, that sort of thinking is more or less the rule then exception. But in ROTK, bearing in mind confucianist ethos of the novelist where Liu-Han is the 正统, the subtle biases are inevitable.
Remember, Cao was depicted like a paranoid mad man suffering from migraine & killing HuaTuo in distrust. Also, he is amoral with women, whether competing for woman with his children or something like that, exact details sorry I lost touch oredy....
Anyway, whatever the difference of opinion amongst bros here, let's give each other some space, remain civil & let's all enjoy the Magic of the Chinese Classics !
Not I started 1, Maxi just tell us to watch the serial instead of typing here also kenna suan by him, LOL. Poor Maxi, hahaha
I never say Cao Cao is a good person, but i considered him a hero at that times, yes he was ruthless, but he values friendship and kinship too.
If he's ruthless, why so many people still following him? He got the most generals, 5 great strategist as i mentioned before.
His friendship with Guan Yu and Zhang Liao
His bowing for forgiveness to his wife
He executes historicans who only writes his achievements but not his wrongdoings.
If I'm not wrong, he also wrote he was remorseful of his actions.
Historical comments on Cao Cao
史书评论
”明略最优”、“清平之奸贼，乱世之英雄” （《后汉书·许劭传》，裴松之注引孙盛《异同杂语》作“治世之能臣，乱世之奸雄”）
“汉末，天下大乱，雄豪并起，而袁绍虎视四州，强盛莫敌。太祖运筹演谋，鞭挞宇内，揽申、商之法术，该韩、白之奇策，官方授材，各因其器，矫情任算，不念旧恶，终能总御皇机，克成洪业者，惟其明略最优也。抑可谓非常之人，超世之杰矣。”（《三国志·武帝纪》陈寿）
Yi Zhong Tian on Cao Cao
“曹操的遗嘱“分香卖履，留恋妾妇”体现出曹操的大气与自负，就不谈国家大事，不说豪言壮语，就说些小事，你们把我怎么样，你们说我是小人就是小人又怎样，我曹操就是曹操，我才不在乎你们怎样评价我呢。我就是这样的人。
I never say Cao Cao is a good person, but i considered him a hero at that times, yes he was ruthless, but he values friendship and kinship too.
If he's ruthless, why so many people still following him? He got the most generals, 5 great strategist as i mentioned before.
His friendship with Guan Yu and Zhang Liao
His bowing for forgiveness to his wife
He executes historicans who only writes his achievements but not his wrongdoings.
If I'm not wrong, he also wrote he was remorseful of his actions.
Historical comments on Cao Cao
史书评论
”明略最优”、“清平之奸贼，乱世之英雄” （《后汉书·许劭传》，裴松之注引孙盛《异同杂语》作“治世之能臣，乱世之奸雄”）
“汉末，天下大乱，雄豪并起，而袁绍虎视四州，强盛莫敌。太祖运筹演谋，鞭挞宇内，揽申、商之法术，该韩、白之奇策，官方授材，各因其器，矫情任算，不念旧恶，终能总御皇机，克成洪业者，惟其明略最优也。抑可谓非常之人，超世之杰矣。”（《三国志·武帝纪》陈寿）
Yi Zhong Tian on Cao Cao
“曹操的遗嘱“分香卖履，留恋妾妇”体现出曹操的大气与自负，就不谈国家大事，不说豪言壮语，就说些小事，你们把我怎么样，你们说我是小人就是小人又怎样，我曹操就是曹操，我才不在乎你们怎样评价我呢。我就是这样的人。
In the sense of unity of empire as a single political entity, not saying who's righteous or not, the culprit of splitting the empire apart was most certainly Liu Bei aided by Zhuge Liang. The decisive moment was of course the battle for Jingzhou.
It was never known as the Red Cliff Battle during that era. It was known as Red Cliff only after that, when people saw that the cliff was burned charred red and stayed red, even until today if you visit it. Monumental testament to a monumental battle.
Back to Jingzhou, one must have a sense of proportion. It wasn't a mere city. A zhou was the largest district boundary in Xia-Shang-Zhou era, when the whole China comprised nine zhous only. Hence, whole China was called wanfang jiuzhou. In Xia-Shang-Zhou era, every zhou was divided into dukedoms and fiefdoms, hence we had the Spring and Autumn, Warring States periods at the end of the era to sort it out.
In Qin and Han era, the zhous were divided into shires that are further divided into prefectures. What people like Sun Ce tried to do was to restore autonomous lordship over his ancestral land without actually betraying or seceeding from the Han empire. The state of Wu, geographically called Jiangdong (east of River Yangtze) was in the area of Yangzhou. The north from Youzhou to Yongzhou in northwest and Qingzhou in northeast were de facto Cao Cao terrorities and de jure direct imperial terroritories since Cao Cao was Prime Minister representating the Emperor in name for all military and political affairs.
In between was Jingzhou and and west of it was Yizhou (modern Sichuan area). These two are straddled between whether recognising Cao Cao's authority to represent the Emperor or not, as both were held by imperial uncles, Liu Zhang and Liu Biao. To complicate matters of legitimacy, Cao Cao himself became imperial father-in-law too. The Empress was his daughter. Liu Bei (great grandson of Prince Zhongshanjing and in lineage also imperial uncle himself) came in to stake a claim.
Liu Zhang in Yizhou was practically untouchable without taking Jingzhou from Liu Biao first, because of the geography and terrain. In between was what commonly known as Han Zhong (where their ancestor Liu Pang built his kingdom and foundation for Han Dynasty). That's why lands on both sides of this area were conferred to Liu descendants only, never awarded to any non-Liu officials regardless of achievements.
Liu Bei's great grandfather somehow fell out of favour and ended up without land, and Liu Bei, despite from imperial lineage, grew up in relative poverty, or at least austerity. The chaos caused by Zhang Jiao (Yellow Turban rebellion), followed by He Jin, Dong Zhuo and ultimately Cao Cao taking control of a young adolescent Emperor, was what Liu Bei saw as his heaven-given opportunity to reclaim his birthright.
Cao Cao at that time, after taking Jingzhou, with his terroritorial and numerical superiority, would in short eventuality, subdue Sun Quan regardless how clever Zhou Yu was. The automatic surrender from Liu Zhang would follow with the geographical advantage reversed into disadvantage and cornered with Cao Cao controlling Jingzhou and Yangzhou (the land of State of Wu). That's why Zhuge Liang always insisted it must be Jingzhou to take first, losing Jingzhou would be losing the plot.
After the Cao Cao defeat in the Red Cliff Battle, Zhuge Liang immediately occupied the whole of Jingzhou for Liu Bei, much to the distress and anger of Sun Quan and Zhou Yu. Then followed by expedition into Yizhou and finally by half-force half-persuasion, took over the whole Bashu (as it was commonly known then). That was how the State of Shu-Han was established. Liu Bei had prevailed over his better-privileged cousins and became then the top power in Liu imperial lineage.
However, this also created the tripod stalemate that the Three-Kingdom was. Cao Cao would find it very hard to invade Shu without army passing through Jingzhou. Jingzhou was heavily defended anchored by Guan Yu whom Cao Cao had lots of respect for. On the southside, Sun Quan was also trying to figure out how to invade Jingzhou. This problem was solved for him by Lu Xun many years later, when Guan Yu became old and complacent. In any case, he managed only a half-victory (though Guan Yu was captured and executed). The ultimate folly of growing old and more complacent was committed by Liu Bei himself in the Battle of Yiling when Sun Quan scored total victory. Cao Cao and later Cao Pi were no fools too and defended north and central from Zhuge Liang's frequent excursions very well, especially with Sima Yi commanding the defence lines. The whole scenario went back into a stalemate.
It was never known as the Red Cliff Battle during that era. It was known as Red Cliff only after that, when people saw that the cliff was burned charred red and stayed red, even until today if you visit it. Monumental testament to a monumental battle.
Back to Jingzhou, one must have a sense of proportion. It wasn't a mere city. A zhou was the largest district boundary in Xia-Shang-Zhou era, when the whole China comprised nine zhous only. Hence, whole China was called wanfang jiuzhou. In Xia-Shang-Zhou era, every zhou was divided into dukedoms and fiefdoms, hence we had the Spring and Autumn, Warring States periods at the end of the era to sort it out.
In Qin and Han era, the zhous were divided into shires that are further divided into prefectures. What people like Sun Ce tried to do was to restore autonomous lordship over his ancestral land without actually betraying or seceeding from the Han empire. The state of Wu, geographically called Jiangdong (east of River Yangtze) was in the area of Yangzhou. The north from Youzhou to Yongzhou in northwest and Qingzhou in northeast were de facto Cao Cao terrorities and de jure direct imperial terroritories since Cao Cao was Prime Minister representating the Emperor in name for all military and political affairs.
In between was Jingzhou and and west of it was Yizhou (modern Sichuan area). These two are straddled between whether recognising Cao Cao's authority to represent the Emperor or not, as both were held by imperial uncles, Liu Zhang and Liu Biao. To complicate matters of legitimacy, Cao Cao himself became imperial father-in-law too. The Empress was his daughter. Liu Bei (great grandson of Prince Zhongshanjing and in lineage also imperial uncle himself) came in to stake a claim.
Liu Zhang in Yizhou was practically untouchable without taking Jingzhou from Liu Biao first, because of the geography and terrain. In between was what commonly known as Han Zhong (where their ancestor Liu Pang built his kingdom and foundation for Han Dynasty). That's why lands on both sides of this area were conferred to Liu descendants only, never awarded to any non-Liu officials regardless of achievements.
Liu Bei's great grandfather somehow fell out of favour and ended up without land, and Liu Bei, despite from imperial lineage, grew up in relative poverty, or at least austerity. The chaos caused by Zhang Jiao (Yellow Turban rebellion), followed by He Jin, Dong Zhuo and ultimately Cao Cao taking control of a young adolescent Emperor, was what Liu Bei saw as his heaven-given opportunity to reclaim his birthright.
Cao Cao at that time, after taking Jingzhou, with his terroritorial and numerical superiority, would in short eventuality, subdue Sun Quan regardless how clever Zhou Yu was. The automatic surrender from Liu Zhang would follow with the geographical advantage reversed into disadvantage and cornered with Cao Cao controlling Jingzhou and Yangzhou (the land of State of Wu). That's why Zhuge Liang always insisted it must be Jingzhou to take first, losing Jingzhou would be losing the plot.
After the Cao Cao defeat in the Red Cliff Battle, Zhuge Liang immediately occupied the whole of Jingzhou for Liu Bei, much to the distress and anger of Sun Quan and Zhou Yu. Then followed by expedition into Yizhou and finally by half-force half-persuasion, took over the whole Bashu (as it was commonly known then). That was how the State of Shu-Han was established. Liu Bei had prevailed over his better-privileged cousins and became then the top power in Liu imperial lineage.
However, this also created the tripod stalemate that the Three-Kingdom was. Cao Cao would find it very hard to invade Shu without army passing through Jingzhou. Jingzhou was heavily defended anchored by Guan Yu whom Cao Cao had lots of respect for. On the southside, Sun Quan was also trying to figure out how to invade Jingzhou. This problem was solved for him by Lu Xun many years later, when Guan Yu became old and complacent. In any case, he managed only a half-victory (though Guan Yu was captured and executed). The ultimate folly of growing old and more complacent was committed by Liu Bei himself in the Battle of Yiling when Sun Quan scored total victory. Cao Cao and later Cao Pi were no fools too and defended north and central from Zhuge Liang's frequent excursions very well, especially with Sima Yi commanding the defence lines. The whole scenario went back into a stalemate.
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normally after a forummer had taken so much trouble to write up such a long piece, the least one could say is: good effort, rams !
damp squids like chauvenist would use that 4 anticlimax words:
and your point is ....... ?
Back to rams clear historical backgrounder, technically it is true Liu Bei in declaring himself Emperor of Shu-Han, officially ended Eastern Han.
But what to do? Though constitutionally blameless, all the leading contenders at the end were damn tu lan with Cao Cao's 挟天子以令天下..... but I am sure secretly, many wanted to be in Cao's position too.....
damp squids like chauvenist would use that 4 anticlimax words:
and your point is ....... ?
Back to rams clear historical backgrounder, technically it is true Liu Bei in declaring himself Emperor of Shu-Han, officially ended Eastern Han.
But what to do? Though constitutionally blameless, all the leading contenders at the end were damn tu lan with Cao Cao's 挟天子以令天下..... but I am sure secretly, many wanted to be in Cao's position too.....
from wikipedia on zhugeliang
"He is often recognised as the greatest and most accomplished strategist of his era"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Liang
I think his only mistake is that he should have taken over Liu Dou and install himself as ruler of Shu, he would have work less and live longer and may be even unite the Middle Kingdom.
whether is he lousy, you have to go to Shu today which is modern day Sichuan.
If you go to chengdu today, you will see that there are monuments and temples dedicated to Zhugeliang, none to the 3 sworn brothers and A Dou.
People in Chengdu and Sichuan still have very high respect for this great man. He changed lives for the better and people through generations still revered him.
"He is often recognised as the greatest and most accomplished strategist of his era"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuge_Liang
I think his only mistake is that he should have taken over Liu Dou and install himself as ruler of Shu, he would have work less and live longer and may be even unite the Middle Kingdom.
whether is he lousy, you have to go to Shu today which is modern day Sichuan.
If you go to chengdu today, you will see that there are monuments and temples dedicated to Zhugeliang, none to the 3 sworn brothers and A Dou.
People in Chengdu and Sichuan still have very high respect for this great man. He changed lives for the better and people through generations still revered him.
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I would recommend go to baidu instead wikipedia
Zhuge, as a confucianist, will never make himself as a king.
Yeah, Cao Cao put up with all that formality and legitimacy stuff. Cao Pi simply got fedup. Forced his sister (Empress) and brother-in-law (Emperor) into suicide and declared a new dynasty. Almost executed his own brother Cao Zhi too, saved by the immortal 7-Step Poem.
But the military stalemate meant Cao Pi couldn't do much about Shu-Han and Wu. He wouldn't even trust Sima Yi too much except when necessary in defence. His son Cao Ren trusted Sima Yi too much and Sima Yi's son Sima Zhao took over control the court and dynasty. In the end Sima Zhao's son Sima Yan reunified China after all the three-kingdom heroes had died.
Ironically, the new dynasty was named Jin. The whole Chinese warring states saga wasn't about the three kingdoms only if we look at it from seven kingdoms to unification under Qin, to Chu-Han partitition, to Han reunification and to three kingdoms. It actually began with 三家分晋 (赵，魏，韩）and ended with 三国归晋。A period of about 500 years.
I would recommend go to baidu instead wikipedia
Zhuge, as a confucianist, will never make himself as a king.
of course ....
if only .....
can
?We are 孔明粉丝 true blue, die hard okie !
of course ....
if only .....
can
We are 孔明粉丝 true blue, die hard okie !
Wah lau eh..... Hahaha... Can can
yeah boy, didn't realise this till today, 活到老，学到老 indeed...
don't forget before 司马昭was司马帅, his elder bro succeeded the father & led war expeditions. Was it him who swallowed his own eyeball in pain from eye injury ? His premature death prompted power he gotten from his old man passed to his younger brother....
Although the famous proverb is 司马昭之心，路人皆知, ironically fate intervened & he died before assuming the throne - leaving his son, the 3rd generation 司马炎 to be 1st Emperor of Jin. But as fate would have it, Jin was half-fucked & spluttered very quickly into 五胡十六国 。。。。splitted until unification again under 隋朝.
knn suddenly occur to me, with so many biculturalists here, why present generation still kpkb mother tongue weightage, chinese very hard to learn ... how did the old farts here maintain an interest & read up passionately (or watch serial on internet faithfully) ?!
chinese history CL1 where got problem ?
Rams, from this, I gather you have also read 二月河's famous trilogy that was made into highly popular TV serials making TangGuoQiang & JiaoHuang famous ?
I love the book version ! SOLID ! From Kangxi to YongZhen to QianLong HuangChao.... The TV serials did not faithfully reproduce the book's plot instead adapt & create own bastardized versions....
My fav is the YongZheng part - writing about his friendship with 13th Prince & the mysterious brilliant advisor 邬师爷, the KangXi teacher 伍先生also superbly written !
Sorry, sidetracked to off-topic .....
LOL, u menstruate izzit? Hahaah
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