Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

[funglung]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

Dear Nice

Most of us do no see LKY as murderer or as a criminal :_)) but thats just my view

Cheers


Locke

That fucking LKY is the source of EVIL and corruption in Singapore.

LKY bastardised and subvert everything to suck and suck money from Singkies

Any murderer is less evil than that bastard LKY

Any other criminal is more honest and a better man than that LKY

 

[The_Latest_H]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

To establish a few facts, if you want to try a person, you better damn well give him the due process also. You have to research everything that is related and go through it with a very fine comb. In the process, you will find proof, and also a lot of counter-proof and a lot more of unrelated stuff.

That takes (a lot of) time, years in fact. And not to forget, the other side will do the same to dispute your facts.

But all of this pales to the biggest elephant in the room issue in which such a trial shouldn't be a show trial, where the conclusion is already known even before the case started. Because if it is just like that, such a trial, and such an evaluation by the court will not be taken seriously by observers. The prosecutors cannot just pick a charge from out of thin air and expect it to stick. Observers expect these prosecutors to do their job right and do enough background checks to ensure their case and their stuff are set just right.

If it isn't, the case would just collapse by itself.

And then there's another one more thing. Unlike the likes of General Pinochet and Sloban Milosevic, LKY has not done stuff on the scale that these two dictators have. The two I have mentioned, have actually approved of decisions that literally killed tens of thousands of civilians- aka a mass slaughter of opponents. LKY, in local terms, is a ruthless autocrat, I agree, but on an international scale, jailing and then sending Francis Seow pales in comparison to what Sloban Milosevic done in Bosnia.

We have to reconcile with such facts basically.

 

[scroobal]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

Dear Scroobal

You might want to add a tendency to see things in religious dogmatic black and white, an inability to read a more nuanced position, a further inability to know when people are discussing relatives and balance, a further deliberate tendency to ignore questions about his logic and to selective quote excerpts from detailed answers thus distorting detailed positions and explanations, resorting to questions whilst never answering in full questions asked of him, or resorting to circular answers and polemics and when all else fails a resort to deliberate discourtesy and insults. very legal and lawerly I would say

Locke

Well said and I see you know where this is coming from.

 

[Nice-Gook]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

To establish a few facts, if you want to try a person, you better damn well give him the due process also. You have to research everything that is related and go through it with a very fine comb. In the process, you will find proof, and also a lot of counter-proof and a lot more of unrelated stuff.

That takes (a lot of) time, years in fact. And not to forget, the other side will do the same to dispute your facts.

But all of this pales to the biggest elephant in the room issue in which such a trial shouldn't be a show trial, where the conclusion is already known even before the case started. Because if it is just like that, such a trial, and such an evaluation by the court will not be taken seriously by observers. The prosecutors cannot just pick a charge from out of thin air and expect it to stick. Observers expect these prosecutors to do their job right and do enough background checks to ensure their case and their stuff are set just right.

If it isn't, the case would just collapse by itself.

And then there's another one more thing. Unlike the likes of General Pinochet and Sloban Milosevic, LKY has not done stuff on the scale that these two dictators have. The two I have mentioned, have actually approved of decisions that literally killed tens of thousands of civilians- aka a mass slaughter of opponents. LKY, in local terms, is a ruthless autocrat, I agree, but on an international scale, jailing and then sending Francis Seow pales in comparison to what Sloban Milosevic done in Bosnia.

We have to reconcile with such facts basically.

<style></style>I see far too many legalities for me to fathom.Everybody wants to play the legal eagle eh.!

Ask yourself why must accountability be only confined to the closed doors of a court room?....Rephrased ,the ole Japanese when held accountable commits a hara-kiri-a conscientious act...You don't have to go to the court to hold someone accountable.It could very well be an act of self awareness too...and perhaps even forgiven but held accountable nevertheless...

 

[Nice-Gook]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

That fucking LKY is the source of EVIL and corruption in Singapore.

/quote]


<style></style>I must agree with you on this.

A murderer only destroys some lives including their loved ones.A crooked politician destroy the entire future of generations.After all it is only natural for politicians to ensure their job security through relentlessly seeing that the mass remain misinformed so that they never wise up to the truth and kick the politicians out. ..

 

[Nice-Gook]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

Dear Nice

Misquotes half truths, etc and denial of what I clearly stated, etc. Lets state it for the record I believe that accountability has a time and a place but LKY or GCT is not the correct person for whatever recent statements they have made , the correct persons or people are again LHL and his bunch of idiotic foot in the mouth ministers. The fact that LKY and or GCT have equally between them made bankrupt many you consider heros is again besides the point. No one bloody cares, and at this juncture there are bigger issues out there than what these two did 15 or even ten years ago. LKY will if you continue to bait him and that makes him more relevent but why bait that mad old cow who seeks to be relevent beyond his time ?

Please pity me, scorn me, insult me for all I care, this is a public forum after all and no one really takes scorn or insults from the village idiot seriously to begin with. I may disagree with you but if insults are what you are capable and that passes for whatever intelligence you have then I am afraid common courtesy is beyond you.



Locke

<style></style>Oii Lockie.Writing so many words of mere nothing is outdated.Perhaps you too a dinosaur like LKY?

In this age writing skills are an ability to deliver points in short sharp and crisp manner.

Enough said.Had enough of your gibberish gobbledygook.

 

[The_Latest_H]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

<style></style>I see far too many legalities for me to fathom.Everybody wants to play the legal eagle eh.!

Ask yourself why must accountability be only confined to the closed doors of a court room?....Rephrased ,the ole Japanese when held accountable commits a hara-kiri-a conscientious act...You don't have to go to the court to hold someone accountable.It could very well be an act of self awareness too...and perhaps even forgiven but held accountable nevertheless...

Public lynching will only make Singapore even worse off, and it will soil our reputation. Our foreign investment reputation lies in the fact that- at least not in the political side of things- that we still have a legal system that is equal to those who follow the British common law system.

Public lynching, or the more politically correct "street justice" will only deflate any confidence by both locals and foreigners that we uphold the Justice system. Therefore street justice is not just bad for all of us in all aspects, but it also doesn't help matters.

Besides, its unrealistic. Do you think that its just ever so easy that a revolution would change anything or everything? Gimme a break. Politics has never been a straight black-and-white world. Legalities are just the same.

 

[Nice-Gook]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

Public lynching will only make Singapore even worse off, and it will soil our reputation.

Public lynching, or the more politically correct "street justice"

.

<style></style>Public lynching ? Did you said public lynching !!!!...Mama Mia,..

Boy,you sure carry a lot of hatred don't you?...did you not read my words" perhaps F O R G I V E N but nevertheless accountable?


Answer me this...Is an act of public lynching mob-justice or accountability?

 

[The_Latest_H]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

<style></style>Public lynching ? Did you said public lynching !!!!...Mama Mia,..

Boy,you sure carry a lot of hatred don't you?...did you not read my words" perhaps F O R G I V E N but nevertheless accountable?


Answer me this...Is an act of public lynching mob-justice or accountability?

I thought you refered to public lynching. I didn't say I endorse public lynching. So I don't understand what are you referring to, or what are you trying to imply.

I had no intentions of endorsing public lynching as 'justice', and therefore I apologise if I unintentionally gave such an impression. My stance has been clear: either there's a trial, or no trial. As for a truth commission, like I said, that's up to the future generations to decide.

 

[scroobal]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

<style></style>
Enough said.Had enough of your gibberish gobbledygook.

Given up, have you?

Circular logic will always sink to the bottom. It has no correlation with good or bad grammar or the language that is used. It is a reflection of one's IQ and the lack of it shines thru no matter what persona is used.

Notice that Locke did not respond to my change of tact. Notice that Locke kept the conversation going. LSE is not your run of the mill book despository. The ability to sense the formation of a mousetrap is not common.

Suggest you pick your appropriate station in life in future.

 

[Nice-Gook]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

I thought you refered to public lynching. I didn't say I endorse public lynching. So I don't understand what are you referring to, or what are you trying to imply.

I had no intentions of endorsing public lynching as 'justice', and therefore I apologise if I unintentedly gave such an impression. My stance has been clear: either there's a trial, or no trial. As for a truth commission, like I said, that's up to the future generations to decide.

<style></style>Sorry that I gave you greater credit ...Let me put in a very simple lingo so that any Ah Beng would understand.First what indeed is being 'held accountable"...?...it simply means' Ah hah!, now we know you did this', sort of thing.which translated in very simple terms like the Santa telling the very naughty 5 year old in December ,"so you have not been good thru this year hah"---that is being held accountable.

Of course in our adult world being held accountable may be a matter of life and death.Take for instance our late ministerTeh Cheang Wan .He took bribe.It was a happy affair for him till he was held accountable by LKY.There was no courtroom nor people lining up the street to lynch him .The rest is history..


So you see,I am talking of being held accountable whereas you are talking of punishments...

And to expose the truth is our responsibility .The onus is entirely ours.So some remedial actions may ensue.Why pass the buck and burden to our future generation.?

 

[scroobal]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

<style></style>
And to expose the truth is our responsibility .The onus is entirely ours.So some remedial actions may ensue.Why pass the buck and burden to our future generation.?

Nobody is passing the buck. You can't hold the old man accountable if you can't capture seat and gain majority in parliament. Long essays and convoluting arguments is not even going to singe his remaining hair.

Votes get seats, seats gets you into government and immediately you can hold a trial and screw him to kingdom come, accountability and all.

Get the drift?

 

[Nice-Gook]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

Nobody is passing the buck. You can't hold the old man accountable if you can't capture seat and gain majority in parliament. Long essays and convoluting arguments is not even going to singe his remaining hair.

Votes get seats, seats gets you into government and immediately you can hold a trial and screw him to kingdom come, accountability and all.

Get the drift?

<style></style>How do than one wins votes to form a majority in the parliament than?.....where is your starting point?

By exposing the truth so that voters may decide.As Abraham Lincoln once said ,'You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.'

And this is what I have to say to the nay sayers .Once an emperor charged his wise men to invent him a sentence to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away."

 

[scroobal]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

<style></style>How do than one wins votes to form a majority in the parliament than?.....where is your starting point?

By exposing the truth so that voters may decide.As Abraham Lincoln once said ,'You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.'

And this is what I have to say to the nay sayers .Once an emperor charged his wise men to invent him a sentence to be ever in view, and which should be true and appropriate in all times and situations. They presented him the words: "And this, too, shall pass away."

I will be the first to concede that the road to parliament for the opposition is basically mined, left to right. That does mean its impossible. If Chiam, JBJ, Low, Sylvia, Ling, Francis, Jufrie, Steve Chia, tik lik, GMS etc can get sizeable votes, Chee who is superior on many accounts certainly can if he had applied the right tactics. Would you rather do country music to rednecks or the hip hop.

The question than arises - was he targetted or did he wave a red hankie. I think we know the answer to that.

Throwing paper arrows and giving excuses that it cannot be done does nothing to bring this tyrant to the court of accountability.

The paper throwing and the NGO circus acts on Burmese, human rights etc does not resonate with Singaporeans at all. We fighting to hold on to jobs lest one underqualified and underpaid foreigner grabs it. The CPF is an escrow account for HDB and Ministry of Health.

Just take this budget session, there so many questions yet the focus is on old man bullshitting. Thats preeching to the converted. We learnt that fromn 1984. So why tell what we know. Its nearly 14 years and these tactics don't work.

Lastly, everyone more or less agrees about the accountability piece. Old man has a lot to answer. Its the paper arrows with the long winded and repetative message. My heart sank when I realised that it had a part 2.

Maybe for variety he might want to do a piece on something else we all know - Mugabe. I suppose you you are looking for accountability as well.

One other thing - his supporters are his biggest liability. Jufrie calling Singaporeans Sheep and labelling opposition elected candidates as approved parties puts anti PAP Singaporeans off SDP and Chee. If one can't handle the real enemy, one should not turn his back and fire at him own side.

Lastly, we all know the truth. Nothing to expose. By now the Filipino maids know what the Lee clan is doing. One must be blind as a bat not to know.

 

[funglung]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

Nobody is passing the buck. You can't hold the old man accountable if you can't capture seat and gain majority in parliament. Long essays and convoluting arguments is not even going to singe his remaining hair.

Votes get seats, seats gets you into government and immediately you can hold a trial and screw him to kingdom come, accountability and all.

Get the drift?

It is not that difficult.

FIRST AND FOREMOST, LKY IS A FUCKING COWARD.

HE NEVER DARE TO FACE THE PEOPLE IN CLEAN ELECTIONS

HE NEVER DARE TO ALLOW FREE AND FAIR PRESS

HE NEVER DARE TO ALLOW FAIR TV AND MEDIA COVER

LKY KNOW THAT HE CANNOT HAVE A HOPE IN HELL TO WIN IF ELECTIONS ARE FAIR.

SINGKIES!

FIND YOUR BALLS AND LKY WILL BE VOTED OUT.

THEN FULL TRIAL ON THAT BASTARD AND ALL HIS FELLOW BASTARDS THAT WEAR WHITE

 

[scroobal]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

It is not that difficult.


THEN FULL TRIAL ON THAT BASTARD AND ALL HIS FELLOW BASTARDS THAT WEAR WHITE

The moment the Lees find out they are going to lose the elections, the whole clan will disappear overnight.

People in HDB flats will be hunting for grassroots leaders. Only Seng Han Tong will probably be spared.

The families whose fathers were banished and where the kids grew upo with only one parents will probably lead the charge.

Thats when Nathan will be wondering how come Istana and Cabinet room is quite.

 

[kingrant]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

Dear King

By this logic, after LKY dies, the PAP collapses and we will all go to a democratic liberal heaven. No need for any opposition period, just wait for LKY to die and a liberal democratic order will emerge. Whats going to happen after LKY dies ? The SDP is going to write another series of articles proclaiming " We must hold LKY accountable for his sins even after death , we need a truth commission "




Locke

Two scenarios if the PAP lost the majority.

The anti-PAP factions will have to form a coalition, a marriage of convenience. Whether it will survive and for how long depends on whether it can resist the PAP who will fight back, tooth and nail (if they don't flee):

1. LKY still alive: Likely he won't concede power so easily. He might create chaos, instigate a riot through proxies/agent provocatuer plants, and because he is still the govt until the new one is sworn in, he can still resort to the Riot Act and thru the ISA, or better still, declare a State of Emergency, and Martial Law, put all the Opposition parties under arrest incl even well-known anti-PAP bloggers (like yourself) until he can devise a way to recapture power. He is experienced enough after selling out the pro-communists back in the late 50s. Don't forget he has ever threatened to call in the Army. So this may be what he has in his mind. If, and a big if, he still has the strength and stamina, he'll fight using every means at his disposal, exploiting the fear factor thru his rhetoric. The world is filled with despots who refused to cede power. There will be so much turmoil that somewhere somehow, he can find a way back using laws that only he can apply.

2. LKY dead: Without him, the PAP is severely weakened. There's no clear leader, except his son being the nominal leader. I think a few in their CEC will hunker down and make all the strategic and tactical plays. They'll form the Opposition bench now. Maybe they will acquiesce,maybe they will not. But they will continually try to split the coalition by parliamentary or extra-parliamentary machinations and bring down the govt. Also the fear that such a volatile situation engenders may persuade the people to once again seek comfort zones for safety and security and trade "democratic liberal ideas" for bread-and-butter PAP! Esp. if people like Chee continues with his liberal and accountability rants instead of consolidating his gains to improve his electoral standing for future. If things play out well for him, he should ask for a Presidential pardon, since the new govt (and a new President) will then be more 'friendly'.

 

[Nice-Gook]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

1. LKY still alive: Likely he won't concede power so easily. He might create chaos, instigate a riot through proxies/agent provocatuer plants, and because he is still the govt until the new one is sworn in, he can still resort to the Riot Act and thru the ISA, or better still, declare a State of Emergency, and Martial Law, put all the Opposition parties under arrest

2. LKY dead: the people to once again seek comfort zones for safety and security and trade "democratic liberal ideas" for bread-and-butter PAP! Esp. if people like Chee continues with his liberal and accountability rants i.

<style></style>Posters like you scroobal ,lockieliberal and The Latest-H has been repeatedly drumming just one mantra.

......"Do not mess with LKY or he would mess you for good,

And therefore we must wait for LKY to kick the bucket.Bingo ! we than would live happily ever after...Of course we must again leave it to the politicians to solve all our problems..Meanwhile,any reformist are merely detractors who should be silenced "....

Wah piong!...sounds like some spin doctoring from the Ministry of Misinformation.


To all of you I have this to say,"we reap what we sow'..and ideas don;t work unless we do.So tell me when is the best time to wake up and face the truth?

 

[The_Latest_H]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

Actually if the PAP loses a lot of support, especially if and LKY passes on, I would believe a scenario of a "national unity" government shouldn't be ruled out.

Whether or not is it better or for the worse is another issue to be debated entirely. Still looking at the transition period of all other countries which have gone through the democratization process, the first step often, and always almost a compromise, is a national unity government.

 

[scroobal]

Re: Holding Lee Kuan Yew accountable – Part 1

<style></style>Posters like you scroobal ,lockieliberal and The Latest-H has been repeatedly drumming just one mantra.
[FONT
To all of you I have this to say,"we reap what we sow'..and ideas don;t work unless we do.So tell me when is the best time to wake up and face the truth?

If you want, you can adopt a defeatist attitude and wait for him to kick the bucket. The rest of us will be trying to garner votes for the opposition to finally get him to account for himself. Every seat lost and every drop of % by the PAP is a cut on the old man's hand as opposed to paper arrows.