Give us HDB flats AT COST, not 30 yrs Mortgage Enslavement!

[jixiaolan]

High property price in reality has limited tangible benefit unless you are cashing out for good. Imagine how much more you need to fork out for upgrading and you dun get much even when u decided to downgrade becos of the various grants which caused the smaller units to cost alot more these days. Moreover, young adults are saddled with mountain of debts for basic housing. How good can that be?

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I am not going to be populist as someone.

I will state what is best for Singapore in the long run. We will need to suffer just a little bit inconvenience as the market segmentation will allow such drastic change to take place without much heavy impact.

It is up to Singaporeans to decide which pills to take, the blue or the red. Whether it is political suicide for me, I really don't mind as long I stick to what I believe is good for Singapore in the long run.

As a responsible politician, we need to speak the truth, even if it means to be the inconvenient truth. Right from the start of the hazardous "Asset Enhancement Scheme" pushed through by the GCT administration, I have been raising objection to this policy which is seemingly "sweet" but full of poison for our future generations.

But we have come so far from then and now our youngsters are suffering the ills of a policy that was made 20 years ago. If we do not take steps and stand up boldly to point out the flaws of such policy direction, for the next 20 or 30 years down the road, the whole system will collapse.

Asset inflation will outstrip income growth. The wealth and income divide will deteriorate beyond remedy. Our future generations will be enslaved by a system that has no bound for greed and rationale.

I have been warned by many about raising this as an issue because they feel that Singaporeans are not ready to accept the fact that their so call "asset enhancement" is just merely a myth. A myth built on irrational greed.

Winning or losing an elections is just a short term gratifications but a bad policy that goes unchecked will create long term repercussions. You will need brave and courageous men and women to stand up to burst the bubble of myth, no matter how painful it is for many of us. Yes, politically I may not survive, but I just hope that my future generations will survive.

Goh Meng Seng

HK low cost flats are few in number (not like 80% of pop), ARE heavily subsidized and resale is only for buyers in the low income ranges. HK is a poor example to use.

What would be better would be to peg price increases of new flats to inflation and at the same time boost productivity and pay for Singaporeans thereby increasing affordability. If HDB prices increase by 3% but PAP is able to boost pay by 6% a year that would, significantly increase affordability of the flats.

Again with 90% being prop owners they WILL not want to see they assets come down in price. What you are proposing is political suicide.

 

[Ramseth]

I am not going to be populist as someone.

I will state what is best for Singapore in the long run. We will need to suffer just a little bit inconvenience as the market segmentation will allow such drastic change to take place without much heavy impact.

It is up to Singaporeans to decide which pills to take, the blue or the red. Whether it is political suicide for me, I really don't mind as long I stick to what I believe is good for Singapore in the long run.

Interestingly, this is also always the PAP line. Can't take the populist stand, must dish out bitter pills for the greater good in the long run.

 

[Zombie]

But we have come so far from then and now our youngsters are suffering the ills of a policy that was made 20 years ago. If we do not take steps and stand up boldly to point out the flaws of such policy direction, for the next 20 or 30 years down the road, the whole system will collapse.

but you are providing a solution that is meant to work 20 years ago, not now... like driving and looking into the rear-view mirror for directions, expecting a "crash" that a politician would write off as an "accident".......

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

but you are providing a solution that is meant to work 20 years ago, not now... like driving and looking into the rear-view mirror for directions, expecting a "crash" that a politician would write off as an "accident".......

I guess there is no easier way out now. Return to basic. There is no "quick money" by having higher HDB prices.

It is very difficult to be a "spoiler" like me and I understand very well. But there is a time we just need someone to shout out loud... GAME OVER!

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Wang Ye]

Or rather screw the 99 year lease and give shorter cheaper ones.

 

[Glaringly]

but you are providing a solution that is meant to work 20 years ago, not now... like driving and looking into the rear-view mirror for directions, expecting a "crash" that a politician would write off as an "accident".......

Why will it cause a crash?

If I understood it correctly, GMS is proposing a new class of non-investment grade flats that is sold at cost price. And these forms only a subset of future new flats.

So, everything much else is per status quo. As there will still be new investment grade flats churn out by HDB. In the meantime HDB will have to work out the ratio of future new investment/non-investment flats and all the rules surrounding this new segment.

I think it is a viable suggestion that is worth looking at.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Mah Bow Tan: When you bought your flat?

Voter: 2005.

MBT: How much you paid for it?

Voter: $200k.

MBT: What's the valuation now?

Voter: $300k.

MBT: And you want to vote for that Goh Meng Seng who promises to bring your home value down to $100k or less?

Voter: :(

GIVE them back the $100K in cash. If you overpaid before, then you rightly deserve to get back your money. Any honourable business will do so. What more of a government that is supposed to work for the people.

GMS, don't be afraid to make earth shattering changes because that is what is required. With $150billion from the reserves and more from the sale/privatization of GLCs and Temasek assets, the people can get back what they overpaid nd we will still have reserves of $200 billion.

Housing prices will continue to hit the roof in the next five years if the PAP wins the next GE as the PAPies through Wong Cunt Seng, have promised about 500,000 new FTs.

Couple that with the baby boom of the dragon year some 20 years ago and you will have HDB homes going up by at least 20-30% just in the next five years.

Couple that with fewer jobs for SGs under the influx of FTs and you can readily see how screwed the newer generation (those that are looking to buy their first homes) and the older generation, those currently paying and will have to continue to pay until their retirement.

There is nothing ppulist in returning money to people who have been overcharged. It is the right thing to do.

This will also help to ensure that working adults have enough for their retirement. This will also put the reserves to good use instead of being a vehicle to by the PAPies to reward themselves and their cronies.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Why will it cause a crash?

If I understood it correctly, GMS is proposing a new class of non-investment grade flats that is sold at cost price. And these forms only a subset of future new flats.

So, everything much else is per status quo. As there will still be new investment grade flats churn out by HDB. In the meantime HDB will have to work out the ratio of future new investment/non-investment flats and all the rules surrounding this new segment.

I think it is a viable suggestion that is worth looking at.

What about the larger percentage of home owners who are currently having to pay for inflated prices until their retirement? We have enough reserves to return to these people what was overcharged to them.

In 10-20 years we will have a substantially aging population without much savings for their old age.

There is no rationale for keeping the amount of reserves that we currently have.

 

[Ramseth]

GIVE them back the $100K in cash. If you overpaid before, then you rightly deserve to get back your money. Any honourable business will do so. What more of a government that is supposed to work for the people.

Scenario 1

Mah Bow Tan: Where you bought your flat from?

Voter: Resale market.

MBT: You paid market price willingly, what refund has got to do me?

Voter: :(


Scenario 2

MBT: Where you bought your flat from?

Voter: HDB direct, new flat.

MBT: How much you paid for it?

Voter: $300k.

MBT: How much is valuation now?

Voter: $400k.

MBT: Now, what's your problem? You got a real problem if you vote for that Goh Meng Seng who'll bring your home valuation to $200k or less. You'll be in negative equity on the mortgage. Foreclosure. Repossess. Understand?

Voter: Oh. See. Thanks. OK. I vote for you.

 

[Glaringly]

GIVE them back the $100K in cash.

How to give, when Temasek and GIC has drain away so much of my money? Better to look ahead and make sure our next gen don't face the same problem as us.

 

[Glaringly]

What about the larger percentage of home owners who are currently having to pay for inflated prices until their retirement? We have enough reserves to return to these people what was overcharged to them.

In 10-20 years we will have a substantially aging population without much savings for their old age.

There is no rationale for keeping the amount of reserves that we currently have.

Even if there are some reserves left, how to distribute... there will be chaos.

It is better they use this reserve to help those aging population in need of help.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Scenario 1

Mah Bow Tan: Where you bought your flat from?

Voter: Resale market.

MBT: You paid market price willingly, what refund has got to do me?

Voter: :(


Scenario 2

MBT: Where you bought your flat from?

Voter: HDB direct, new flat.

MBT: How much you paid for it?

Voter: $300k.

MBT: How much is valuation now?

Voter: $400k.

MBT: Now, what's your problem? You got a real problem if you vote for that Goh Meng Seng who'll bring your home valuation to $200k or less. You'll be in negative equity on the mortgage. Foreclosure. Repossess. Understand?

Voter: Oh. See. Thanks. OK. I vote for you.

YOur scenarios are way off what I was alluding to.

MBT - You paid $200K and now it is worth $300K

VOter - Wahliao, you right man. I vote for you.

GMS - But you paid $150K too much. It only cost $50K to build it. Your two children will have to pay $600K for each one to own a home. Your $100K in asset enhancement cannot even cover renovation for the two homes.

FTs are coming by hundreds of thousands.

We overcharged you $150K. Now take back this $150K. Your children will only have to pay $100K to own two homes. You still have $50K. Enjoy. You worked hard your life to help build this nation.

Voter - KNNPCB MBT. I see your face, I want to shit! GMS, we need more politicians like you. MBT, KKNPCB!

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Even if there are some reserves left, how to distribute... there will be chaos.

It is better they use this reserve to help those aging population in need of help.

What chaso are you talking about? You expect people to run riot because they will be given back money when they were overcharged previously? There is no rationale for your negative thoughts.

$150 billion in reserves is enough for a country of our size. The rest can be used to repay citizens. This will also help the older generation to have enough for their retirement. It is throwing one huge stone and killing a few birds.

And don't worry about there not being enough reserves as that is a problem for the PAPies NOT OURS. They have said we have $300-400+ billion. If we worry about what is there or isn't there than we unnecessarily tie our own hands to find a solution.

The rationale is that we don't need so much reserves especially when there is a very strong need to use it for a large chunk of the population.

If the plan calls for $150billion plus assets from GLCs and Temasek and even NTUC being sold off, we can have enough to sort out the housing price problem and at the same time ensure that the older generation have enough for their old age.

 

[Glaringly]

What chaso are you talking about? You expect people to run riot because they will be given back money when they were overcharged previously? There is no rationale for your negative thoughts.

Just being real. Imagine those who did not get and those who gets more, and those who did not agree to the idea.... so many variables involve.

Let's say you get $1000 less then a fair deal, what happens. HoooooooT Ah.

 

[Ramseth]

LOL! Well done!

MBT - You paid $200K and now it is worth $300K

VOter - Wahliao, you right man. I vote for you.

GMS - But you paid $150K too much. It only cost $50K to build it. Your two children will have to pay $600K for each one to own a home. Your $100K in asset enhancement cannot even cover renovation for the two homes.

FTs are coming by hundreds of thousands.

We overcharged you $150K. Now take back this $150K. Your children will only have to pay $100K to own two homes. You still have $50K. Enjoy. You worked hard your life to help build this nation.

Voter - KNNPCB MBT. I see your face, I want to shit! GMS, we need more politicians like you. MBT, KKNPCB!

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Just being real. Imagine those who did not get and those who gets more, and those who did not agree to the idea.... so many variables involve.

Let's say you get $1000 less then a fair deal, what happens. HoooooooT Ah.

Sporns kenna fark left right and center for decades and they keep silent and when they finally get a garment is wlling and able to help, you expect them to riot?

What people receive will be calculated accordingly. It will be fair to ALL. Everyone will be shown how the calculations are done. With the PAPies gone, people will trust figures given.

When peple feel happy and can look foward to retirement and spending quality time witheir grandchildren, you can expect productivity to grow. Less worries about FTs taking their jobs and less financial burden that impinges on their mental health.

The country needs strong measures to correct the wrongs. No small amount of effort can solve a monumental problem.

 

[elephanto]

I refrain from contributing until i think thru' the implications.

After reading 3 pages now, i realise it is one thing to make MBT sweat & another to do his job. Especially when it means picking up from where he left off and NOT starting on a clean slate say 20 odd years ago before CPF was liberalised for HDB purchase.

It really proves that one can't make omelettes without breaking eggs.

This comment most poignant:
GMS's idea is good but as pointed out by Papsmearer and Ramseth, not practical. It will create a lot more upheaval and disruption than solution.

The PAP has boxed itslef into a corner which is spiralling upwards. Maybe the solution is not in the HDB pricing policies, but in revising our wages upwards aggressively over the next 5 years, to keep up with the asset inflation.

Almost everyone has something sensible to discuss except for one demagogue whose inevitable tirade always end with 'VOTE THE PAPPIES OUT'. But perhaps the rational tone is infectious, and this emo chap toned down somewhat & started using his brains for a change to talk about 'honorable pay-back' which was countered by another bro.

One important caveat :-
GMS, I gather these are your personal musings as in thinking aloud with forumers here - because at some point you seem to post with an air of finality. I am sure there will be discussions within your NSP or do you mean what you are sharing here is after NSP's internal brainstorm?

The reason for my concern is that in its present form (the gist of the past 3 pages), this is way too premature for official public presentation. Already, Rameth's imaginary conversation between voter & PAP is very vivid.

As for my personal input:-

I am more inclined towards the bold-faced comments above. GMS is of the view that the merits of his suggestion outweigh & justify the resulting price upheaval. i am not so sure.

As for raising the real income level of Singaporeans, ha! of course this is everyone's ideal & PAP's boast in the past. But since the '97 Asian Financial Crisis, good years are shorter in span & fewer in episodes (e.g. '01 9/11 then '03 SARS, then subprime, H1N1, productivity lag .....

So my suggestion is : raising real income is an ongoing & the National #1 Priority. But as for Housing Prices, the aim must be to manage stability - that is maintain low low appreciation. The '90 to '96 jump & the 20080-2009 jump are the twin culprits that jack up HDB prices astronomically.

So:-
(1) Internally, HDB must conscientiously decide not to profiteer, maintain below inflation rate (maybe 10% of inflation rate) increase of new flat prices
(2) Monitor market happenings & impacting trends judiciously, never say ' caught me by surprise' type of nonsense EVER again - very unbecoming of universe-class salaried ministers.

So long as new flat prices grow very marginally, the trickle-on effects on resale, private housing prices hopefully will follow through.

Allowing for economic externalities beyond our control, then the possibility for real income growth catching up to make asset appreciation more accurate than asset inflation becomes more probable.

GMS's suggestion can still help if confined to a certain segmented class of Singaporeans in the lower economic strata.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Dear elephanto,

This is a very healthy discussion here, taking a good break from the Jack Neo's saga. And yes, even opposition supporters have suddenly voiced out their real concerns about such "drastic moves".

This is not a policy paper just yet, but a fundamental reasoning for future formulation of NSP housing policy. Yes, it is a thinking out loud kind of brain teaser and it is interesting to note that while Singaporeans know the ills of the high HDB prices but yet, still think that they should still hold on the mythical dream of "Asset Enhancement" program that the Goh CT administration has sold them. It is not Asset Enhancement but rather Liability Enhancement or Asset Enslavement to me.

We must realize that we cannot have the cake and eat it. On one hand, we are still mesmerized by PAP's sweet poisons about "capital growth" and hope to gain something out of high HDB flat price while our young couples are suffering from it. We must realign public perception about HDB flats. HDB flats are NOT for investment purpose and we should not dream about gaining anything from it like investment. HDB are BASIC PUBLIC HOUSING and it should stay as that. If we are to gain something from high HDB price inflation, someone must have lost.... our younger and future generations will lose big! This is the dilemma that many Singaporeans face and PAP is quick to capitalize on people's greed.

Yes, there is a moderate way of adjustment but success will not be certain. Without a strong political competition, we cannot expect PAP or HDB to be so altruistic to keep the pricing of HDB flats low without a clear definitive rule of pricing. It has proven again and again that PAP's policy direction is "Cost Recovery" (from Healthcare, Public Transport to HDB) or even "profiteering" to some extend.

I thank everyone here, both supporter and opposition on this issue for their comments. It just shows that when given enough public space to voice out, every Singaporeans could contribute to a healthy discussion or even debate. We are capable of quality views.

I will base on some of the views made here to formulate the final draft of NSP housing policy. Thank you all.

Goh Meng Seng

I refrain from contributing until i think thru' the implications.

After reading 3 pages now, i realise it is one thing to make MBT sweat & another to do his job. Especially when it means picking up from where he left off and NOT starting on a clean slate say 20 odd years ago before CPF was liberalised for HDB purchase.

It really proves that one can't make omelettes without breaking eggs.

This comment most poignant:
GMS's idea is good but as pointed out by Papsmearer and Ramseth, not practical. It will create a lot more upheaval and disruption than solution.

The PAP has boxed itslef into a corner which is spiralling upwards. Maybe the solution is not in the HDB pricing policies, but in revising our wages upwards aggressively over the next 5 years, to keep up with the asset inflation.

Almost everyone has something sensible to discuss except for one demagogue whose inevitable tirade always end with 'VOTE THE PAPPIES OUT'. But perhaps the rational tone is infectious, and this emo chap toned down somewhat & started using his brains for a change to talk about 'honorable pay-back' which was countered by another bro.

One important caveat :-
GMS, I gather these are your personal musings as in thinking aloud with forumers here - because at some point you seem to post with an air of finality. I am sure there will be discussions within your NSP or do you mean what you are sharing here is after NSP's internal brainstorm?

The reason for my concern is that in its present form (the gist of the past 3 pages), this is way too premature for official public presentation. Already, Rameth's imaginary conversation between voter & PAP is very vivid.

As for my personal input:-

I am more inclined towards the bold-faced comments above. GMS is of the view that the merits of his suggestion outweigh & justify the resulting price upheaval. i am not so sure.

As for raising the real income level of Singaporeans, ha! of course this is everyone's ideal & PAP's boast in the past. But since the '97 Asian Financial Crisis, good years are shorter in span & fewer in episodes (e.g. '01 9/11 then '03 SARS, then subprime, H1N1, productivity lag .....

So my suggestion is : raising real income is an ongoing & the National #1 Priority. But as for Housing Prices, the aim must be to manage stability - that is maintain low low appreciation. The '90 to '96 jump & the 20080-2009 jump are the twin culprits that jack up HDB prices astronomically.

So:-
(1) Internally, HDB must conscientiously decide not to profiteer, maintain below inflation rate (maybe 10% of inflation rate) increase of new flat prices
(2) Monitor market happenings & impacting trends judiciously, never say ' caught me by surprise' type of nonsense EVER again - very unbecoming of universe-class salaried ministers.

So long as new flat prices grow very marginally, the trickle-on effects on resale, private housing prices hopefully will follow through.

Allowing for economic externalities beyond our control, then the possibility for real income growth catching up to make asset appreciation more accurate than asset inflation becomes more probable.

GMS's suggestion can still help if confined to a certain segmented class of Singaporeans in the lower economic strata.

 

[jw5]

I guess there is no easier way out now. Return to basic. There is no "quick money" by having higher HDB prices.

It is very difficult to be a "spoiler" like me and I understand very well. But there is a time we just need someone to shout out loud... GAME OVER!

Goh Meng Seng

GMS

I hope that you and some of your colleagues from the same party or those from other parties get into parliament this time, for the following 3 reasons:

1. I'm tired of having to deal with policies that are claimed to benefit all singaporeans, but in reality, may only benefit certain elites in society.

2. I'm tired of being talked down to by certain people in high positions, who would just make their claims via official-sounding or motherhood statements without solid evidence or arguments to convince me. It insults my intelligence and thinking ability.

3. I'm tired of hearing claims that singapore is so great, the ministars are so great (and deserve their world class world leading salaries), the policies are so great, every singaporean is living such a great life (and no one will be left behind) and yet in our everyday lives, we see people crushed in public transport, people picking things from dustbins, people begging on the streets and walkways, etc etc. It's not true that there is no welfare system. There is a welfare system, but I don't think the food and shopping vouchers are being distributed to the really needy.

Get into parliament and make sure you guys speak up and act for the benefit of all singaporeans, especially the needy, poor and homeless, not just for the elites.