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Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Election

HTOLAS

Alfrescian (Inf)
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Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

You abstain from voting in parliament when:
  • you have no view on something and therefore leave it for others to decide, or
  • you strongly disagree with your own party's position but because the whip is in place, you cannot vote against your party line.

In this case, MPs were asked to vote on a bundle of measures relating to the time within which by-elections must be held when:
  • a GRC minority member's seat goes vacant
  • half or more seats in a GRC goes vacant
  • an SMC seat goes vacant.

If I had been an MP, I'd have disagreed on the first two proposed amendments because I believe that any empty seat (regardless of the race of the member) should be filled via by-elections within 3 months of vacation. I'd have agreed with the third.

Should I have abstained from voting and left it to others to decide? Of course, not.

I had strong views against two of the three amendments and should have voted against the whole lot. I suspect that LTK and SL had views similar to mine when they cast their votes.
 

ChaoPappyPoodle

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

You abstain from voting in parliament when:
  • you have no view on something and therefore leave it for others to decide, or
  • you strongly disagree with your own party's position but because the whip is in place, you cannot vote against your party line.

In this case, MPs were asked to vote on a bundle of measures relating to the time within which by-elections must be held when:
  • a GRC minority member's seat goes vacant
  • half or more seats in a GRC goes vacant
  • an SMC seat goes vacant.

If I had been an MP, I'd have disagreed on the first two proposed amendments because I believe that any empty seat (regardless of the race of the member) should be filled via by-elections within 3 months of vacation. I'd have agreed with the third.

Should I have abstained from voting and left it to others to decide? Of course, not.

I had strong views against two of the three amendments and should have voted against the whole lot. I suspect that LTK and SL had views similar to mine when they cast their votes.

It is false that abstaining from voting are only based on
  • you have no view on something and therefore leave it for others to decide, or
  • you strongly disagree with your own party's position but because the whip is in place, you cannot vote against your party line.

The problem with the bill was that it was a lazy person's work. Thio bundled everything together and hence made it very difficult for everyone. But WP did not ask for separate bills for GRC or SMC.

2 +5 against 79 was always going to be the result. It was never going to be the case that WPs vote would have made any difference to the result. Hence, it's incorrect to say that abstaining would have left the result unto others to decide. We have to be practical under all circumstances.
 

HTOLAS

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

I stand corrected but I think that WP did ask for a further division to the proposed amendments but that proposal was voted down by the PAPzis.

You are right to say that abstaining would have had no practical impact on the outcome, but I look at the consequence of that belief differently. I would say that since there is no practical impact on the final outcome, I do not want it to go on record that I had abstained and thus had no view on the matter, which of course I did.

It is false that abstaining from voting are only based on

The problem with the bill was that it was a lazy person's work. Thio bundled everything together and hence made it very difficult for everyone. But WP did not ask for separate bills for GRC or SMC.

2 +5 against 79 was always going to be the result. It was never going to be the case that WPs vote would have made any difference to the result. Hence, it's incorrect to say that abstaining would have left the result unto others to decide. We have to be practical under all circumstances.
 

cleareyes

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

424856_305894312799917_213440582045291_781570_1880886587_n.jpg


This is interesting

When u put up this post, did u even bother to check the background?
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

I am sorry Ramseth. I cannot agree with you. Whether it is SMC or GRC, anyone who has any strong belief of democracy and democratic representation would protect such principle of representation of voice strongly.

It is not about being held ransom or just about "serving residents" as holding MPS. It is about representation of the people's voice in parliament. Nobody, no other MPs could represent another MP's voice in parliament. Thus, whether there is vacancy in SMC or GRC, by-election should be held so to uphold the principle of democratic representation.

It is regrettable that people like you take your own convenience or party's interests above the constituents' interests, in terms of representation in parliament. PAP apparently disregard democratic principles altogether and they don't really care about democratic representation of people's voice in parliament. However, it is even more sad that even opposition party like WP thinks likewise.

Goh Meng Seng




The bill that was voted down concerned GRC. Only NMPs who needn't go through the electoral process would table and vote for such a bill. Both PAP and WP members voted it down in unison, PAP members knowing that they're either in GRC or could be posted to GRC anytime, why be held ransom by minority or other members? WP members knew one day (as it has already happened) that they would win a GRC. Commonsense, isn't it? Tell NMPs to go eat shit and die, or else join a party and stand for election. But WP couldn't do that since PAP wanted shit eaters and shit stirrers around, and they're still dominant enough to insist on having them.

Also, WP and SPP held only one SMC each at that time. In case of sudden vacation of seat for whatever reason, it's hanging the entire party on the highwire.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

If you really think that it doesn't matter what opposition MPs vote in parliament because it will not change anything, then I think it would be alright for opposition MPs to vote according to PAP's will? That is an absurd stand. Voting is not merely about changing the end result but a demonstration of the party's belief and political stance.

Goh Meng Seng



I stand corrected but I think that WP did ask for a further division to the proposed amendments but that proposal was voted down by the PAPzis.

You are right to say that abstaining would have had no practical impact on the outcome, but I look at the consequence of that belief differently. I would say that since there is no practical impact on the final outcome, I do not want it to go on record that I had abstained and thus had no view on the matter, which of course I did.
 

ChaoPappyPoodle

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

, I do not want it to go on record that I had abstained and thus had no view on the matter, which of course I did.

It is simply because you take it that abstaining is as good as having no view or rejecting a party's stand on the issue. THere is also the case where you abstain because you do not agree with the bill on all counts, where voting yes or no would give credence to a poorly written bill.

For example, let's assume that you are totally against eating sharksfin. A bill is then proposed to limit the amount or number of sharksfin that can be caught. Voting one way or another, yes or no, would have meant that you are agreeable that sharksfin can be eaten. However, by abstaining you in effect disapprove of the bill totally and what it stands for. LTK is a good person for working the ground but he is inexperienced in parliament and in harnessing the greater strengths of the people. Sylvia is a waste of space. When put against the wall, she will fall like a pack of cheap cards. If not for CSM they would not have won Aljunied. This despite the fact that they have been around for ages.

The reason is that working the ground can only harness so many votes. Without a wider massmedia outlet such as the internet, they will always be working the ground. It will take them 20 years to get any further if they do not find another CSM-type candidate or start using the voice and feelings of the people to push their party ahead.
 

HTOLAS

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

In what way did WP vote "according to (the PAPzis') will"?

This was not a PAPzi motion - it was moved by an NMP. Voting against it was not voting "according to the will" of the PAPzis and voting for it would not have been voting against the PAPzis. Abstaining would have been declaring they had no views on this matter, which was clearly not the case.

Indeed, had they abstained, they would doubtless have been accused of taking no stand on a crucial matter.


If you really think that it doesn't matter what opposition MPs vote in parliament because it will not change anything, then I think it would be alright for opposition MPs to vote according to PAP's will? That is an absurd stand. Voting is not merely about changing the end result but a demonstration of the party's belief and political stance.

Goh Meng Seng
 

HTOLAS

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

For me, your example would have been relevant if the difference had been as follows: Thio had moved for the writ of by-election to be issued no less than three months from the date of vacancy and I believed the period should be two months, and there were no other issues. That would have been an acceptable compromise for me to not just abstain from, but even support.

In fact, the following would have been a more relevant analogy:
I'm against the consumption of sharksfin because:
  • it endangers the shark population
  • it leads to cruel practices such as cutting off the fins of sharks and throwing maimed sharks back into the sea.

Someone comes forward to propose:
  • the setting of a quota on the number of sharks that can be caught (regardless of purpose)
  • cessation of further criticism of the practice of de-finning because it is the most cost effective way of harvesting fins.

Can I abstain from voting against such a proposal?

It is simply because you take it that abstaining is as good as having no view or rejecting a party's stand on the issue. THere is also the case where you abstain because you do not agree with the bill on all counts, where voting yes or no would give credence to a poorly written bill.

For example, let's assume that you are totally against eating sharksfin. A bill is then proposed to limit the amount or number of sharksfin that can be caught. Voting one way or another, yes or no, would have meant that you are agreeable that sharksfin can be eaten. However, by abstaining you in effect disapprove of the bill totally and what it stands for.
 
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Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
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Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

I am sorry Ramseth. I cannot agree with you. Whether it is SMC or GRC, anyone who has any strong belief of democracy and democratic representation would protect such principle of representation of voice strongly.

It is not about being held ransom or just about "serving residents" as holding MPS. It is about representation of the people's voice in parliament. Nobody, no other MPs could represent another MP's voice in parliament. Thus, whether there is vacancy in SMC or GRC, by-election should be held so to uphold the principle of democratic representation.

1986 - JB Jeyaretnam (WP, Anson) - Disqualification by account misrepresentation - No by-election
1999 - Choo Wee Khiang PAP, Jalan Besar) - Disqualification by corruption - No by-election
2008 - Ong Chit Chung (PAP, Jurong) - Death in office - No by-election

Democracy is about the prevalence of majority. The majority said aye to not give a damn. The ayes have it. :wink:

You must know there's a difference between democracy and politics. There'd be politics with or without democracy. :rolleyes:
 

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

It is not about being held ransom or just about "serving residents" as holding MPS. It is about representation of the people's voice in parliament. Nobody, no other MPs could represent another MP's voice in parliament. Thus, whether there is vacancy in SMC or GRC, by-election should be held so to uphold the principle of democratic representation.

It is regrettable that people like you take your own convenience or party's interests above the constituents' interests, in terms of representation in parliament. PAP apparently disregard democratic principles altogether and they don't really care about democratic representation of people's voice in parliament. However, it is even more sad that even opposition party like WP thinks likewise.

Goh Meng Seng


You are damn wrong. Have you even been following the thread before you jump in with your ignorance? Obviously not. Suggest you do so first, then you will know the reasons why elections cannot be simply automatic just because one member out of a 5 member GRC suddenly decided to screw his party in some way, or suddenly decided to resign, or met with something unfortunate.

For SMC it is different because the people no longer have a representative, unlike GRC where the other 4 can also function as the representative of the affected constituents. The discussion was also not about SMC but about GRC.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

For SMC it is different because the people no longer have a representative, unlike GRC where the other 4 can also function as the representative of the affected constituents. The discussion was also not about SMC but about GRC.

GMS really doesn't understand the system and politics that he's supposed to be at the forefront of or even just commenting from aside. Refer to my earlier posting. Once a party (whether PAP or WP or another) wins an SMC and adjacent GRC together, they form a whole joint TC. It was the same as in AMK-YCK (PAP). It was the same as in Hong Kah-CCK (PAP). It's the same now as in Moulmein-Kallang-Whampoa (PAP) and Aljunied-Hougang (WP).

It's also the reason why CST contested Bishan-Toa Payoh GRC, because it's adjacent to Potong Pasir SMC. Just too bad, he lost the gambit whereas WP won. But he has only himself to blame for taking the gambit too late whereas LTK took it at the right timing.

It's also important from the point of view of democracy as in majority wins. Majority doesn't want a change of TC whichever party is in charge every one or two years just because an MP died, got sacked or resigned. If you want to understand democracy, you must understand majority first.
 
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PMPunk

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

if you really think that it doesn't matter what opposition mps vote in parliament because it will not change anything, then i think it would be alright for opposition mps to vote according to pap's will? That is an absurd stand. Voting is not merely about changing the end result but a demonstration of the party's belief and political stance.

Goh meng seng

fuck u goh meng seng! You're a kung pao bitch!
 
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Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

Sometimes it is really hilarious to discuss things with WP apologists.

We are talking about democratic principles and here we have people talking about party's discretion and convenience. Rule of Law isn't build upon unlimited power by discretion; that would be Rule by Law. You can have one thousand and one reasons not to call for by-elections, most likely due to each political party's consideration of self interests but the spirit of democratic representation must be upheld. Not you suka suka want by-election then ask someone to resign (1992 by-election). If your party has one MP who is sabo king and resign in a GRC, so be it. Your party chose him/her to be candidate and then become MP. That's your own party's problem.

If your MP die prematurely, so be it. That's your party's business as well, just too unlucky to have someone who died early. Doesn't mean that we should allow parties and politicians to bend the rules to suit their own agenda and party interests.

Read the following reports:

Representation is a cardinal principle in our democracy, too
Letter from Eugene Tan Kheng Boon Assistant Professor of Law, Singapore Management University School of Law, Nominated Member of Parliament 04:46 AM Feb 28, 2012
IN HIS I Say piece "No automatic by-election in our model of parliamentary democracy" (Feb 24), Mr Hri Kumar Nair claims that my commentary "The value of a by-election" (Feb 20) ignores the law and reason for by-elections in Singapore.

In fact, he glosses over the applicable law and ignores the basis of our model of parliamentary democracy, which has evolved from the United Kingdom model.

Article 49 (1) of our Constitution provides that an election "shall" be called when an elected parliamentary seat is vacated. The Parliamentary Elections Act (PEA) provides for the same.

In both cases, the very use of "shall" (rather than "may") indicates, prima facie, the mandatory nature of a by-election.

It is correct that the Prime Minister has the prerogative on the timing, as the Constitution and PEA are silent on this point.

However, Section 52 of the Interpretation Act states: "Where no time is prescribed or allowed within which anything shall be done, that thing shall be done with all convenient speed and as often as the prescribed occasion arises."

The PM's discretionary power vis-a-vis by-elections is not an unfettered one.

Our Court of Appeal, in its 1988 decision in Chng Suan Tze, stated that "the notion of a subjective or unfettered discretion is contrary to the rule of law" because "all power has legal limits".

The PM should explain if he decides against or delays for an extended period of time calling a by-election. This accords with accountability and transparency. It assures Singaporeans that his decision is not based on narrow party interests.

This is of fundamental importance. The right to vote is not a mere legal right but a constitutional right.

Mr Hri Kumar asserts that a Member of Parliament (MP) is not fundamental in our system of parliamentary democracy. That may well be his party's position.

For Singaporeans, however, election candidates matter as much as their party. Otherwise, why would the People's Action Party (PAP) emphasise the calibre of its electoral candidates if the PAP name is good enough?

The thrust of Mr Hri Kumar's arguments is that calling a by-election is an act of benevolence by the Government. It is a sad day for our parliamentary democracy if the cardinal principle of representation is denied without justification.

Covering MPs do not have a mandate from the Hougang voters.

The current Parliament has more than four years of its term left. Let the Hougang voters decide how they would hold the Workers' Party accountable. They would not begrudge this constitutional opportunity to elect a new representative.

Is our system of governance so precarious that a Hougang by-election, involving 25,000 voters, would result in instability and the Government having to put aside important national issues?

All said, Mr Hri Kumar's obfuscation suggests that the PAP is more concerned with the by-election's outcome than with enhancing our system of parliamentary democracy, giving effect to the constitutional right to vote and the rule of law.



Constitution demands a by-election in Hougang: experts
By Jeanette Tan | SingaporeScene – 5 hours ago

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Constitutional law experts here say that a by-election should be held in Hougang SMC, even by the terms of our Constitution. (Yahoo! file photo)
Singapore's constitution does require that a by-election be held in Hougang as the seat for the single member constituency has become vacant, constitutional law experts said Tuesday.
Constitutional law professor Thio Li-ann and adjunct law professor Kevin Tan, both of whom lecture at the National University of Singapore, spoke in agreement with Nominated Member of Parliament (NMP) Eugene Tan, who asserted on Tuesday that the law in fact mandates a by-election for Hougang SMC, and that Prime Minister (PM) Lee Hsien Loong's discretionary power with respect to calling for one is "not an unfettered one".
In a letter published in the Today newspaper on Tuesday, Tan rebutted the points raised by MP for Bishan-Toa Payoh group representation constituency (GRC) Hri Kumar Nair in a separate note published in the same paper on Friday that there was "no requirement" for a by-election to be called immediately for Hougang SMC.
The seat for the Hougang SMC was declared vacant on Tuesday, as expected, after former MP Yaw Shin Leong said he would not challenge or appeal his expulsion earlier this month from the Workers' Party, which said the move was made because Yaw failed to explain allegations concerning his private affairs.
When contacted by Yahoo! Singapore, Thio said that Hri Kumar was basically reiterating PM Lee's standpoint, which she added represents "a political understanding of a legal system".
"While legally, the PM has the power to call a by-election or not, I find persuasive the argument that this discretion is not unfettered," she said.
"It (the by-election) should be done in a timely fashion with an eye to constitutionally-recognised principle of representative democracy, i.e. that every constituency should have a representative, rather than someone who can 'cover' a MP's duties but lacks legitimacy as the duly elected MP," she continued.
Thio also argued that when an SMC is left without a representative, it is less convincing than in the case of a GRC to say that his or her party will cover his or her duties, because the person or people covering for the displaced MP may not have been elected to do so. She also pointed out that this situation becomes worse should the MP in question be the sole MP from his party or an independent MP without a party.
"As a matter of prudence, so early in a parliamentary session, Parliament should have a full complement of MPs, and it is my view that a by-election should be called so that the people of Hougang can exercise their constitutional right to vote, and to be represented in Parliament by their representative, (whichever party he or she is from)," said Thio.
Adjunct professor Kevin Tan responded with his agreement quite simply, saying, "In brief, Eugene (Tan) is right and Hri (Kumar) is wrong. Eugene's latest letter states the law as it stands and must be regarded as the proper interpretation of the situation."
Former attorney-general Walter Woon believed the ruling party government's intention is to avoid being held to a timeline to call for a by-election.
Responding to queries from Yahoo! Singapore, he made reference to a statement made by former PM Lee Kuan Yew in Parliament at the end of 1965 that "there was no such injunction of holding a by-election within three months in our previous Constitution (before Singapore merged with Malaya in 1963)… Since we are no longer a part of the Federal whole, for reasons which we find valuable as a result of our own experience of elections and of government in Singapore, we have decided that this limitation should no longer apply."
"So legally, there is no such obligation (for a by-election to be held within a specific time-frame). The decision to do so is entirely political," said Woon.
"Will the voters feel that they have not been treated fairly if no by-election is called? That is the question," he added.
In his letter to Today, Tan referred to Article 49 (1) of Singapore's constitution, which states that an election "shall" be called when an elected parliamentary seat is vacated, as, he noted, does the parliamentary elections act.
"In both cases, the very use of 'shall' (rather than 'may') indicates, prima facie, the mandatory nature of a by-election," wrote Tan.
He acknowledged that PM Lee does have the right to exercise his own discretion on the timing of the by-election, but pointed out that Section 52 of the Interpretation Act states, "Where no time is prescribed or allowed within which anything shall be done, that thing shall be done with all convenient speed and as often as the prescribed occasion arises."
On this, and noting also a 1988 Court of Appeal decision that said "the notion of a subjective or unfettered discretion is contrary to the rule of law", because "all power has legal limits", Tan concluded that the PM's powers on timing of the by-election are not without restraint.
He argued that PM Lee should explain if he chooses not to hold a by-election or delay calling for one for an extended period.
"This accords with accountability and transparency. It assures Singaporeans that his decision is not based on narrow party interests," he wrote. "The thrust of Mr Hri Kumar's arguments is that calling a by-election is an act of benevolence by the Government. It is a sad day for our parliamentary democracy if the cardinal principle of representation is denied without justification."
 

HTOLAS

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

Mr Goh,

Thus far, I've tried to focus my writing on the arguments put forward and rebutted them with what I believe to be stronger ones. I've not accused anyone of having shady intentions or refer to anyone's lack of mental capacity. With your last post, I find that restraint unnecessary.

What advancement to this discussion can there be if all you do is post large chunks of other people's writing accompanied only by know-it-all sighs at your detractors? What intention could you have other than trying to confuse where you clearly have failed to convince.

I had wondered why people attack you so savagely for everything from failing the NSP at the last GE to "criticizing" WP. I had believed the your mistakes as SG of NSP were honest ones you would learn from. Your conduct in this discussion suggests I had been wrong and the others right.

Good night.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

I am sorry but you wouldn't be able to convince anyone here. They are blind mules which will defend their idols even if it means to come up with some silly excuses and reasoning.

They would even say, "oh, PAP has done this....so why not?". It will lower your IQ, really.

Goh Meng Seng


Mr Goh,

Thus far, I've tried to focus my writing on the arguments put forward and rebutted them with what I believe to be stronger ones. I've not accused anyone of having shady intentions or refer to anyone's lack of mental capacity. With your last post, I find that restraint unnecessary.

What advancement to this discussion can there be if all you do is post large chunks of other people's writing accompanied only by know-it-all sighs at your detractors? What intention could you have other than trying to confuse where you clearly have failed to convince.

I had wondered why people attack you so savagely for everything from failing the NSP at the last GE to "criticizing" WP. I had believed the your mistakes as SG of NSP were honest ones you would learn from. Your conduct in this discussion suggests I had been wrong and the others right.

Good night.
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

What intention could you have other than trying to confuse where you clearly have failed to convince.

bro,
me find this type of modus operandi strangely familiar: convince, confuse, condemn :eek::eek::eek:
 

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Re: Fact: Low Thia Kiang voted against having a time limit on when to hold a By-Elect

It seems that the idiot is now spewing his shit on this thread.

Before we go on, let's examine the REAL FACTS.

(a) WP attempted to AMEND the motion to work towards the abolition of GRCs. Obviously this attempt did not succeed.

(b) WP also DISAGREED on Thio Li Ann's idea that the entire GRC should be held hostage by a single candidate, whether minority or otherwise. Note that there was never any mention of SMC. As I've said before, the bulk of the discussion was focussed on GRC, not SMC.

(c) Sylvia Lim in fact turned the motion around and held it up as exemplifying the undemocratic nature of GRCs. She said that the GRC system does not promote representative democracy.

(d) Sylvia Lim also argued that minority representation is not an excuse for the existence of GRCs, giving the past history of voting behaviour.

In light of all this, WP voted against the motion as tabled by Thio Li Ann.

The thread starter is throughly dishonest to have left all these out. The Village Idiot is also despicable to pollute the thread with his filth.
 
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