China’s rise to superpower in peace is a first for mankind

[superpower]

Under Deng, state interference in the economy was sidelined and capitalist style market reforms took place. That gave rise to foreign trade and direct investment, and what actually happened is that the Chinese people brought themselves out of poverty after the Dear Leaders stopped the communist suppression. So really the credit goes to the Chinese people and not some Marxist Mandarins who lorded it over their own people.

You need to differentiate between communism politically and communism economically. China and Vietnam in the modern era are communist politically and in name only. In fact, you can easily see the same result in Vietnam's development when they adopted a free market.

Cuba and Venezuela is communist in both. Good luck to you if you want to live there.


Do you actually have any real world experience or just writing based on printed data? Since when does India have institutionalized rule of law? It has an institutionalized disregard for the rule of law. A veritable cesspool of corruption where the laws are not worth the paper they're printed on and only apply to those who can't pay.


Neither. A cesspool nor lord of the flies in a 21st century megalopolis do not fit my idea of preferred habitats.

Agree. China and Vietnam are authoritarian non-electoral one-party states, with a capitalist economy, with a certain degree of central control, the extent of which varies according to the leader in charge.

I've never said post-Deng China was communist in the Marxist sense of the word: a centrally planned socialist economy.

I was talking about the uplifting of the Chinese people under the auspices of the Chinese Commnunist Party in 2 generations, which uplifitng was probably the greatest social achievement (in terms of numbers) in human history. Mind you, this was after Mao's Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution set China back 20 years. Same party, different leader.

You can give credit to the people - no doubt they deserve it - but you need a leader who can see the wood for the trees, cut through the political doctrinaire builshit, see that black and white cats are no different if they catch mice, and implement facilitatory policies. You need vision, courage, gumption and chutzph to go against the yoke of 5,000 years of feudalistic culture to call out the Marxist-Lenninist bullshit and act on it. Deng was the man. (BTW, even the CCP has stopped calling its economy Marxist.)

You're wrong about India. Rule of law is institutionalized in India, thanks to the Brits. (Check their constitution). ON paper, that's India's strength vis-a-vis China (since there's always a certain arbitrariness in the interpretation & implementation of the law in a communist state) but there's absolute disregard for rule of law at the level of the people or government in India because caste and social status reigns supreme. Hence the rampant corruption.

 

[superpower]

That's a laughable statement. The current leader is Mao 2.0. He is exactly replicating all of Mao's mistakes. He's definitely not learning from the past other than copying it outright.

We'll see about that. I was talking about the party, not about any one particular leader. (Like most Sinkie ignoramuses, you conflate the party with the leader with the nation: CCP bad, leader bad, country bad, people bad.)

They're each individual entities, yet inextricably linked.You think Xi will live to be immortal like the legendary emperors of yore? You think he can't be ousted? If we can have Mao ver. 2.0, why can't we have Deng ver. 2.0? Do you even think the CCP itself will outlive the 21st century?

(Hint: look at the most glorious dynasties - if you can compare the CCP to a dynasty - and see how long they survived.)

Like I said before, the Chinese cast their horizons in terms of decades & centuries. Short-sighted, short-termist commentators like yourself will never understand the long view.

Obviously you missed my point about the many possible future projections: CCP morphing from within into a more liberal entity, CCP replaced or overthrown and electoral democracy taking over (like Taiwan), civil war, even a return to imperial feudalism. I don't have the habit of gazing into crystal balls.

That's equally laughable. Earlier you mentioned that Chinese will keep on surviving like cockroaches, but now they're too fragile if one government collapses. You can't have it both ways.

For goodness sakes, the Chinese have gone through so many governments even foreign ones and they're still here. There has never been a greater threat to Chinese-ness than a communist government yet you believe it to be good for the people. No government in the entire history of China has brought about a quicker ruin to China's culture, traditions and sense of community. Not even the Mongols or the Manchus.

Those intangibles that have kept the people strong and together for those millennia yet you will support a government that readily wipes out what makes China Chinese? China people have remarked in private but not readily in public on how surprised they were to see overseas Chinese carrying on the traditions of their ancestors. Your argument is totally without merit.

The Chinese will survive like cockroaches. But at what cost to the state? To the existence of the CCP, its raison d'etre? Look at all the upheavals in the past. Look at the warlord era post-Imperial China. You're giving the CCP too much credit for having such a high threshold of tolerance for unrest or anarchy.

Politics 101: the CCP is concerned, above all, about its legitimacy and hence its survival. Because there's no alternative. There's no elections. CCP screws up, it's history (not the people or cockroaches).

So people who say the CCP is self-serving, out to enrich themselves, out to screw the populace, should get their heads examined. The stake are so high when you're the only party ruling over 1.4 billion potentially restive people that sometimes it paralyzes, rather than emboldens, you. Every autocratic move by the CCP reeks of fear, not hubris or power.

 

[superpower]

Xi Jinping raises concerns over potential collapse of Chinese Communist Party: Report​

2 min read Updated: 19 Jul 2023, 06:56 AM ISTMausam Jha

Chinese President Xi Jinping has recently expressed concerns about the potential collapse of the Communist Party of China (CCP) as approximately 415 million worldwide, renouncing their affiliation with the CCP, including its regiments, teams, and other associated organizations.

As per the report, People's reaction across the globe has taken the CCP authorities aback with Xi Jinping in the recent SCO Summit stating that he is opposed to any country's instigation of "colour revolutions" and "interference in internal matters" for any reason, according to the report.

Greek City Times reported that at the SCO summit, Xi said that SCO member states said that they should be wary of the "external forces" creating a scenario for the new cold war and creating confrontational camps. He has been repeatedly issuing warnings regarding the collapse of the CCP, which if not dealt with, seems inevitable.

According to a report from Greek City Times, in 2022, Chinese President Xi Jinping delivered a speech to a young cadre training class, which has now been published as an article in the Communist Party of China's journal, "Seeking Truth." In the speech, Xi Jinping expressed his concern about the potential collapse of the CCP.

Xi Jinping emphasized the significance of adhering to the principles of Marxism and Communism within the context of Chinese characteristics. He warned that deviating from these beliefs could lead to a similar disintegration as seen in the case of the Soviet Union.

CCP is reportedly concerned about the possibility of suffering a fate similar to that of the Soviet Union, which experienced dissolution following a significant wave of people leaving the party. CCP is becoming increasingly worried due to a combination of China's worsening internal and external issues, as well as its growing competition with the international community. China is facing various challenges on both the economic and social fronts.

According to a report by Greek City Times, the policies implemented by the authorities of the CCP are increasingly facing disapproval and criticism within China and other countries.

In response to growing challenges to its power dynamics, the CCP has adopted more authoritarian measures, including crackdowns on Chinese oligarchs, limitations on people's freedoms and liberties, censorship of online criticism, and consolidating power in the hands of President Xi.

According to a report by Greek City Times, despite the CCP's efforts to suppress dissent, signs of discontent persist, exemplified by millions of individuals worldwide leaving the party to express their disapproval of its tactics of suppressing freedom of expression and individual liberties.

This development has caused concern among the CCP leadership, prompting President Xi to openly acknowledge the party's potential demise due to the mass exodus. Xi has been urging people to remain loyal to the party for the sake of ideological alignment.

According to a report by Greek City Times, the policies implemented by the authorities of the CCP are increasingly facing disapproval and criticism within China and other countries.

In response to growing challenges to its power dynamics, the CCP has adopted more authoritarian measures, including crackdowns on Chinese oligarchs, limitations on people's freedoms and liberties, censorship of online criticism, and consolidating power in the hands of President Xi.

https://www.livemint.com/news/world...se-communist-party-report-11689727293157.html

 

[duluxe]

Maybe it will be better to hold your horses and look at China again in 2159: the CCP might not even be there anymore.

CCP is here to stay and cannot be toppled. CCP has networked surveillance system monitoring the peasants. Once your face is captured by the huawei's telecommunications infra's endpoint, the CCTV camera, the backend server is able to zoom to your ID. Even your flow of money through wechat, they are able to track. Kindergarten kids have to read Xi's book. How can such a regime be over thrown?

 

[syed putra]

Taiwan also claim spratly islands?

 

[syed putra]

CCP is here to stay and cannot be toppled. CCP has networked surveillance system monitoring the peasants. Once your face is captured by the huawei's telecommunications infra's endpoint, the CCTV camera, the backend server is able to zoom to your ID. Even your flow of money through wechat, they are able to track. Kindergarten kids have to read Xi's book. How can such a regime be over thrown?

Dictators will normally start to dismantle it's own regime by self annihilation. It starts to eat it own top leaders. Anyone suspected of power grabbing are eliminated. Like what xi jinping currently doing.

 

[duluxe]

Dictators will normally start to dismantle it's own regime by self annihilation. It starts to eat it own top leaders. Anyone suspected of power grabbing are eliminated. Like what xi jinping currently doing.

Mao used the cultural revolution to successful remove his rival faction. Regardless of which faction survived, the CCP regime will remain and china future generation will continue to sing party songs and study socialism in schools.

The worrisome part is CCP already extended the surveillance out of china and is real, we will soon be fucked.

 

[nightsafari]

Agree. China and Vietnam are authoritarian non-electoral one-party states, with a capitalist economy, with a certain degree of central control, the extent of which varies according to the leader in charge.

I've never said post-Deng China was communist in the Marxist sense of the word: a centrally planned socialist economy.

I was talking about the uplifting of the Chinese people under the auspices of the Chinese Commnunist Party in 2 generations, which uplifitng was probably the greatest social achievement (in terms of numbers) in human history. Mind you, this was after Mao's Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution set China back 20 years. Same party, different leader.

They achieved this by doing nothing except allow foreigners to invest and allow their own people to sell their goods and services to other countries. Anytime there is any communist leadership actively taking charge, you can be certain that the people will be impoverished.

The same can be applied to any other communist country. Russia, Vietnam. If North Korea's Kim dies overnight and the whole thing gets dismantled, do you suppose that North Korea will collapse into oblivion or will eventually join the rest of the world in prosperity?

Unless of course you are so obsessed with China that this universal logic fails to apply to your dream homeland.

You can give credit to the people - no doubt they deserve it - but you need a leader who can see the wood for the trees, cut through the political doctrinaire builshit, see that black and white cats are no different if they catch mice, and implement facilitatory policies. You need vision, courage, gumption and chutzph to go against the yoke of 5,000 years of feudalistic culture to call out the Marxist-Lenninist bullshit and act on it. Deng was the man. (BTW, even the CCP has stopped calling its economy Marxist.)

Deng did do something, he emulated the West and ditched communist planning. But only to bide their time when they can take over the world. He said so himself.

You're wrong about India. Rule of law is institutionalized in India, thanks to the Brits. (Check their constitution). ON paper, that's India's strength vis-a-vis China (since there's always a certain arbitrariness in the interpretation & implementation of the law in a communist state) but there's absolute disregard for rule of law at the level of the people or government in India because caste and social status reigns supreme. Hence the rampant corruption.

Yeah, it seems that everything you write about is on-paper. If on-paper is your go-to source for drawing all your conclusions and your bellwether as to how a country runs, then sure go ahead and migrate to China. We'll celebrate for you.

All the best.

 

[nightsafari]

I'm excluding all the contradictory statements your making because I'm not wasting any more time.

So people who say the CCP is self-serving, out to enrich themselves, out to screw the populace, should get their heads examined. The stake are so high when you're the only party ruling over 1.4 billion potentially restive people that sometimes it paralyzes, rather than emboldens, you. Every autocratic move by the CCP reeks of fear, not hubris or power.

If every move is made out of fear, you call that good governance? Wow. you are really messed up.

A willing, co-operative, largely non-violent and hardworking populace needs to be feared. Now I've heard it all.

I'll continue reading your stuff, you make interesting observations and points, but your conclusions about China at the very best deluded. Like wanting China to be this magic paradise that it isn't.

You write like a departed Chinese Malaysian who got the wrong end of the stick everywhere he went and are hoping for self-actualization through positively identifying with an entity greater than yourself no matter how tenuous the link.

As before, I sincerely hope you enjoy your life in China. No one is stopping you from joining the great March towards progress. If you're not living there now, you're just a half-assed bullshitting hypocrite.

And really, if there's one thing I can't stand, it's someone who makes all these grand pontifications without any basis in reality. A total waste of time having a discussion. Hence, I shan't be replying unless you've lived in China for a good number of years.

Good day.

 

[Hypocrite-The]

Two interesting dynamics in this forum that I've noticed:

1. People here who support countries/groups that are affiliated with their own ethnic-cultural heritage are largely Malays and Indians. This is understandable.
e.g. duluxe (Indian Hindu) ranting on about Islam and China, mudhatter and syed putra (Malay, DKK) standing up for Malay rights.

2. But the most virulent anti-China posters here are practically all Chinese! That's perplexing. The Chinese have always been their own worst enemy, a pan of scattered sand, no unity. E.g. laksaboy, eatshitndie, ChinaCommunistSG, Hypocrite, even Sam Leong himself.

Unthinkable that there are people here who actually approve of the 2 Opium Wars, where an entire empire was financed by turning Burma into a giant drug lab and then forcing first China and then the entire SE Asia to consume opium (the last opium den in S'pore closed down in the early '70s) - at gunpoint. While opium was banned in the home country (Britain) and many European countries. Today, heroin and all manner of hard drugs continue to flow into our region from the Golden Triangle, decimating millions of youths and wasting untold lives.

In some ways the current tranq epidemic afflicting large swaths of the US is poetic justice, karmic payback. Though the zombie drug is not something I'd wish fostered on any society.

Just food for thought.

Anti ChiCons or anti tiongland...? U get the 2 mixed up?

 

[Hypocrite-The]

density and size, just like iq and race (pun intended). amerika is too large for all ferraris to assemble in one convoy, but it has the largest owned fleet by far compared to all other cuntries. a 2009 tally by ferrari says it all on relative percentages of all types and models. by end of 2009, amerika had over 36.9k ferraris of all makes and models. by now in 2023 that number should be over 69k, over 69 times more than the numbers in ml and sg combined.
https://ferraris-online.com/how-many-ferraris/

Ah sai 2009 is one thing ...how about 2023? N don't forget heaps of luxuries are cheaper in Yankee land than in other cuntries.....so the reason for soo many Ferraris is cause its cheaper in Yankee land than in Singkieland etc

 

[eatshitndie]

Ah sai 2009 is one thing ...how about 2023? N don't forget heaps of luxuries are cheaper in Yankee land than in other cuntries.....so the reason for soo many Ferraris is cause its cheaper in Yankee land than in Singkieland etc

yeah cheaper without coe and high duty.

 

[superpower]

If every move is made out of fear, you call that good governance? Wow. you are really messed up.

A willing, co-operative, largely non-violent and hardworking populace needs to be feared. Now I've heard it all.

This will be my last response to you after reading this very long post which adroitly managed not to say anything at all.

It is highly unproductive to continue this discussion with someone whose idea of a cerebral debate rests solely on dishing out a litany of fallacies: straw man (paradise), ad hominem (departed Malaysian), dishonestly putting words in my mouth (good governance).

Just 3 points and I'm gone.

1. I merely said good governance matters more than any specific political system, since systems are a means to an end. Show me where I said that the CCP is the epitome of good governance .

2. I said 'restive'. How did that morph into 'willing, co-operative, largely non-violent and hardworking'? Get a good dictionary, is my advice. And brush up on your Chinese history, which is strewn with the blood and dead bodies of a fractious, pugnacious and mercantilist race.

3. Last piece of advice: do not let your intense prejudice against communism blind you to reality on the ground. (I won't go into Cuba, since it's obvious that you know nothing about it.) One gets nowhere engaging with thickheaded ideologues like you.

An observation: you write like Peter Pan boys from a certain school here: smug, self-important proclamations cast in a dismissive manner by way of recourse to a host of fallacies. Scroobal, locke_liberal from days of yore come to mind. Grow up. I may be wrong, but the best is yet to be.

So, ciao.

 

[superpower]

Anti ChiCons or anti tiongland...? U get the 2 mixed up?

Both.

Like I say, most people here conflate the 2: communism is evil, ditto CCP, ditto tiongland and the people.

Just trawl through the posts here and you'll see how all these concepts are lumped together into one evil monolithic entity.

 

[superpower]

CCP is here to stay and cannot be toppled.

Cannot be toppled... Are you sure???

Show me one regime, nay, one empire that was never toppled in history, and I'll show you the kingdom of Heaven. And the sun did set on the British Empire.

Personally, I don't see the CCP lasting past this century without re-inventing itself. Even Xi's grand proclamation about re-uniting the motherland by 2050 seems like a pipe dream to me.

 

[superpower]

- deleted -

 

[Hypocrite-The]

Both.

Like I say, most people here conflate the 2: communism is evil, ditto CCP, ditto tiongland and the people.

Just trawl through the posts here and you'll see how all these concepts are lumped together into one evil monolithic entity.

Who are the ones that conflate the 2?

 

[Eisenhut]

"No bombs, no attacks, no wars, no overthrowing of other govts and foreign elections of those who don’t agree with your interests, Imran Khan of Pakistan, being the lastest leaving once again, Pakistan in chaos and misery."

996 enough to kill you

 

[superpower]

Who are the ones that conflate the 2?

The anti-China posters. I've named some of them.

That's why I've come in to restore some balance.

 

[superpower]

"No bombs, no attacks, no wars, no overthrowing of other govts and foreign elections of those who don’t agree with your interests, Imran Khan of Pakistan, being the lastest leaving once again, Pakistan in chaos and misery."

996 enough to kill you

Agree. BTW Elon Musk works 100 hour work weeks, and wants his employees to follow suit. Puts 996 in the shade.

That's what an unchecked capitalist system does to the world. And the rich-poor gap is the largest in history, and keeps getting bigger.