Serious 50th Anniversay of 6 Day War and the impact on SAF, and how the Jews fucked us

[Charlie99]

of course lah. amx-13 was a light tank for hit and run missions, not head-on mbt fights. the t-55 was an mbt. the idf also relied on centurions (in the pic) to fight the t-55. and they had more success. saf also bought centurions. as you should know, training in centurions were done in taiwan as there was not enough terrain for mbt training in sg. moreover, they had to be hidden away as not to alarm neighbors at that time. but anyone with a more analytical mind would know that they being tucked away on another island so far away would have little to no bearing in an actual conflict if war were to hit the borders in hours. even saf soldiers were not all told that we had heavier tanks than mere amx-13 tin cans.

The Centurion was a very good MBT in that era.

 

[Charlie99]

that is the theory part. that light tanks would be used as scout or recce armour and the tank v tank would be fought between MBTs. But in war, all the theory goes out the window once the first shots are fired. If all you have left to stop the enemy attack are AMX-13s, what are you going to do? Retreat and wait until your own MBT shows up, if at all? The reality is that many times, you have you fight with what you have. Considering that we had over 400+ AMX-13s and Tempest tanks are far away, the odds are that our AMX would go toe to toe with an MBT.

U have to bear in mind the context at that time. The Cold War was at its height. The Vietnam war was raging and the domino theory which the PAP leadership subscribed to, says that once the communist North Vietnam takes over SOuth Vietnam, and with Chinese and Russian communist backing, Thailand would be next, then Malaysia, then Singapore. There was some credence to this because Laos and Cambodia had essentially fallen to the communist. With the very real possibility that we might face Vietnamese T-55s one day, it was criminal of the Jews to sell us the shit useless AMX-13. They knew that they would have to retire those tanks with immediate effect. They knew that no one else would buy it off their hands. Using their military advisory role with the SAF, they sold us these tanks that they would not risk their own soldiers in. If we had send 400 of these tanks to war, I doubt if 20 would have come back.

By the way, there were Tempest in Singapore storage. The ones in ROC were to train the armour regulars. All armour regulars had to go for a Tempest conversion course. In the event of war, all Tempest qualified armour personnel would be pulled out of their units and send to form the one single Tempest company. And draw their Tempest from storage in Singapore.

What is the equivalent strength of 400 AMX 13?

Three battalions of armour?

 

[eatshitndie]

U can lose the battle but still win the war. Non AMX-13 IDF armour units defeated their arab
enemies. AMX-13 units were defeated by Arab units.

on the sinai front against egypt, idf achieved success in tank battles with battalions of m48a3 upgunned with l7 105mm against units of is-3 (yeah ww2 vintage), t-34, t-54. while on the west bank front against jordan, centurions and m-50 and m-51 shermans upgunned with 105mm medium velocity rifled guns defeated hundreds of m47 and m48a1 among jordanian units. after capturing 100 m48a1s the idf junked the m47. yup, the amx-13 was the worst performing tank in the idf army.

 

[Papsmearer]

I thought the Israelis practically gave us their AMX13s?
The sum paid was merely a token. If we did not take them, they would have been discarded in all probability.....

From wiki :

By 1967, Israel had acquired about 400 AMX-13s and formed three AMX-13 battalions, all of which fought actively on all fronts during the Six Day War.
The first moved south in the West Bank area through Taluzi and Tubas and occupied Nablus (against Jordan).
The second captured the strongpoints protecting the Gaza Strip and the coastal road in the north of the Sinai Peninsula (against Egypt).
The third assaulted the Golan Heights (against Syria).
The IDF realised that the AMX-13 tank was too lightly-armoured and had a weak main gun. Losses were heavy at places like Rafah Junction and Jiradi Pass during the Six Day War. Subsequently, the IDF completely phased out the AMX-13 from its inventory and sold them to the Singapore Army in 1969.

The Jews never gave anything away. Are you kidding? Everything is money with them. We had to buy it from them and they cost money. They only sold us the first batch. Subsequent batches were acquired from India, Holland, Switzerland, etc. Because we could get them at a cheaper price there. In the case of India, some were just hulks that SAE rebuild.

 

[Papsmearer]

the only thing that made it a one sided war was the israelis attacked first,complete surprise and without warning,when their enemy was unprepared,unready and unequipped for war anyway......

this whole charade is just a plot by the jews and the west to keep the middle east weak,poor and divided.if only the arabs did not give up after the yom kippur war,if only eygpt and jordan and syria and lebanon did not give up and continue developing their economies and going at it,eventually israel would have fallen.....its funny how 40 years later this scourge and cancer is still here while middle east is in utter chaos.

Go and spend a few hours reading about the 6 day war before you spout off here. The Arabs had been threatening for months that they would drive the Jews into the sea with their combined armies. They had a coalition command to centralize their armies under one commander. They had many exercises simulating the attack on Israel. They were building up their armies with huge supplies from the Russians and other western countries. They were hardly unprepared and unequipped. If the Jews had not attacked, the Arabs would have attacked them within a few months. The loudmouth Gamal Nasser could not keep quiet about the invasion plans. what Israel did was not so much an invasion as a pre-emptive strike. If the arabs were not ready to take what they promised to dish out, its their problem.

 

[Papsmearer]

Were you trained, operated and commanded AMX 13 platoons and companies?
Is SM1 any better?

Yes, I was. The SM1 is better. You don't feel as naked in it. The original AMX-13 was really a death trap. 350 litres of petrol waiting to blow up. Very thin armour that could not stop a 7.62mm AP round. A double clutch non synchro transmission that was hard and tiring to operate, etc.

The SM1 modes made a lot of better changes. Improvements in powertrain (diesel engine), transmission (changed to automatic), armour ( upgraded to take 20mm hit), suspension (old torsion bars replaced by pnuematic suspension), gun (with the newly developed APFSDS round), etc.

 

[Papsmearer]

The Centurion was a very good MBT in that era.

The Centurion by itself was a decent MBT. The Centurion as employed by the British army was an ok tank. The Centurion modified and upgraded by the IDF was a great tank.

 

[Charlie99]

The Centurion by itself was a decent MBT. The Centurion as employed by the British army was an ok tank. The Centurion modified and upgraded by the IDF was a great tank.

As a teenager, I read various books about the War of Independence, the 6-Day War, the Yom Kippur War.
There are a few books about the IDF raids and rescue which I have yet to read.

 

[Charlie99]

Yes, I was. The SM1 is better. You don't feel as naked in it. The original AMX-13 was really a death trap. 350 litres of petrol waiting to blow up. Very thin armour that could not stop a 7.62mm AP round. A double clutch non synchro transmission that was hard and tiring to operate, etc.

The SM1 modes made a lot of better changes. Improvements in powertrain (diesel engine), transmission (changed to automatic), armour ( upgraded to take 20mm hit), suspension (old torsion bars replaced by pnuematic suspension), gun (with the newly developed APFSDS round), etc.

Did the SAF Armour battalions have Centurion, before the German Leopard tanks?

 

[Papsmearer]

Did the SAF Armour battalions have Centurion, before the German Leopard tanks?

I think there was one
under strength brigade of Centurion. I don't know how they were going to operate that. Almost 20% of the Tempest strength was in ROC. How they would get them back in time, I don't know. There was no active Centurion units. Just a training unit in ROC. The Tempest were stored in Singapore, and the rest were in ROC. In the event of a war, all Centurion qualified tankees were to fall out from their units and report to the Tempest Brigade. Again, I don't know how they would do that as many Tempest qualified personnel were appointment holders and other vital personnel in their units. So, the Centurion unit was not a quick reaction force. U would see AMX-13 engage first and eventually the Centurions might join in if the war is not over at that time. After the centurion was retired, the only armour we had was the SM1. They were supposed to develop the Bionix into a light tank, but ST fucked that up. In the end, they ended buying the Leo 2 at friendship prices. And modified them in SIngapore under that german con man IBD Diesenroth.

 

[Papsmearer]

on the sinai front against egypt, idf achieved success in tank battles with battalions of m48a3 upgunned with l7 105mm against units of is-3 (yeah ww2 vintage), t-34, t-54. while on the west bank front against jordan, centurions and m-50 and m-51 shermans upgunned with 105mm medium velocity rifled guns defeated hundreds of m47 and m48a1 among jordanian units. after capturing 100 m48a1s the idf junked the m47. yup, the amx-13 was the worst performing tank in the idf army.

In every conflict the AMX-13 was engaged in, they were the losers. In the Indo-Paki war, the Indian AMX-13 did not do well. The Indians abandoned many of them on the field of battle and retired the AMX-13 shortly after that. I have seen battle damaged Indian AMX-13s at SAE in the 80s.

 

[eatshitndie]

I think there was one
under strength brigade of Centurion. I don't know how they were going to operate that. Almost 20% of the Tempest strength was in ROC. How they would get them back in time, I don't know. There was no active Centurion units. Just a training unit in ROC. The Tempest were stored in Singapore, and the rest were in ROC. In the event of a war, all Centurion qualified tankees were to fall out from their units and report to the Tempest Brigade. Again, I don't know how they would do that as many Tempest qualified personnel were appointment holders and other vital personnel in their units. So, the Centurion unit was not a quick reaction force. U would see AMX-13 engage first and eventually the Centurions might join in if the war is not over at that time. After the centurion was retired, the only armour we had was the SM1. They were supposed to develop the Bionix into a light tank, but ST fucked that up. In the end, they ended buying the Leo 2 at friendship prices. And modified them in SIngapore under that german con man IBD Diesenroth.

aiyah. you should know better. tempests were upgraded centurions, of which 63 of the 1st batch (mk.3 and mk.7) were from india. israel helped locals modify them (idf sho't standard) and later retired batches (while they upgraded mbt units to merkava). why sg didn't buy upgraded centurions directly from idf? i don't know but there's speculation that idf wished to protect certain ipr "treasures". anyway, sinkies learned about the idf sho't standard and called it a new name, after adapting it for the saf. tempest is essentially just a modified centurion tank.

 

[eatshitndie]

In every conflict the AMX-13 was engaged in, they were the losers. In the Indo-Paki war, the Indian AMX-13 did not do well. The Indians abandoned many of them on the field of battle and retired the AMX-13 shortly after that. I have seen battle damaged Indian AMX-13s at SAE in the 80s.

sae bought them like scrap and repurposed them for spares and use in saf. at that time before neighbor acquired pt-91 twardy that sounded like "twatty" or "tardy" and it became public, it was ok and cheap to lull neighbors to let guard down with the amx-13 junk. they must be laughing their arses off with saf's very pubic display of amx-13. the 2 units worth of centurion "tempest" were a well kept secret, so well kept no pic of tempest in sg was published, except of course the 6 in hukou, which were used for mbt conversion course for armor regulars. if you have taken the course you would have been in the course group pic with tank behind. the 2 battalions worth of tempest were kept in mothball condition in sg. its concealment was not to cause alarm to neighbors unnecessarily. the amx-13, imo, was adequate, light and cheap for basic tank training for ns men. for many sinkie guniangs, that was not only their 1st experience with a tank but also basic mechanics such as tracks, engine, transmission, tools, etc. the saf could not reveal more armor capabilities until neighbors started procuring mbt's such as twat's and leo's. by then the tempest was obsolete and the leotard became fashionable - thus the pubic display of boyz to men guniangs in sexy leotards.

 

[Papsmearer]

aiyah. you should know better. tempests were upgraded centurions, of which 63 of the 1st batch (mk.3 and mk.7) were from india. israel helped locals modify them (idf sho't standard) and later retired batches (while they upgraded mbt units to merkava). why sg didn't buy upgraded centurions directly from idf? i don't know but there's speculation that idf wished to protect certain ipr "treasures". anyway, sinkies learned about the idf sho't standard and called it a new name, after adapting it for the saf. tempest is essentially just a modified centurion tank.

well, its you that should know better. You should know better then to believe everything you read on the internet. Yes, the Tempest were from India. They were in poor condition and I think they still had the 17 pounder gun. The number we got from them was never disclosed. There is a lot of speculation about the number of Tempest, I never saw 63 of them. Of course, most people never even saw the ones we had in Taiwan. I think 63 was a little on the high side. One battalion, yes for sure. But of course, what do I know.

My understanding was the IDF did not help the locals modify them. The locals, meaning SAE was already busy with other work such as AMX-13 refurbishment and repair, M113 refurb and repair, assembly of Mercedes 3 tonners, maintenance on Jeeps, land rovers, unimogs, etc. I never met one SAE personnel who worked on refurbishing the Tempest nor did I ever meet one armour officer who ever said we did the modifications ourselves, with or without jewish help. If you were ever at the SAE facilities in those days, there was no space to fit in a mini cooper. I was told that the Centurions were send to Israel. they were already set up for it as they had been doing the SH'ot Kal Alef mods for some time. There was no expertise in SAE to do the type of work needed on the Tempest. And in fact, 1 decade later, all the mods SAE were capable of doing was the AMX-13s to SM1. And that was a long drawn out painful process for them too. If they had done the mods for the tempest, i would imagine the one for the AMX-13 would be a piece of cake for them.

Anyway, after the Jews modified the Indian tanks to Tempest standard, they were send back to Singapore, and the detachment send to Taiwan. As for why the SAF did not buy the modified Centurions directly from Israel, the answer to that was quite simple. I had asked this same question during my time in the SAF and was told the Jews just would not sell it. The Sh'ot was almost of a mythical standing in Israel, the tank that saved Israel, etc. They were like national treasures. They were never going to sell us any. They were also facing an arms embargo with the US being their only weapons supplier. And the verdict on their American M48 was not that great. Later on when they got the M60, it was roughly equal to their Sh'ot.

The mods that the Jews did for our Tempest was a baseline model. Many modifications were not included in the ones they made for Singapore. For example there was no provision for Blazer/Delal ERA armour. They had the diesel continental and the auto trans, and the 105 mm L7 gun. The FCS and stabilizer was not the best the IDF had. But still, in SE Asia, the best tank by far. Tempest was our codename for the modified tank. Not a new name. We could not openly say Centurion, so we called it Tempest.

 

[Papsmearer]

sae bought them like scrap and repurposed them for spares and use in saf. at that time before neighbor acquired pt-91 twardy that sounded like "twatty" or "tardy" and it became public, it was ok and cheap to lull neighbors to let guard down with the amx-13 junk. they must be laughing their arses off with saf's very pubic display of amx-13. the 2 units worth of centurion "tempest" were a well kept secret, so well kept no pic of tempest in sg was published, except of course the 6 in hukou, which were used for mbt conversion course for armor regulars. if you have taken the course you would have been in the course group pic with tank behind. the 2 battalions worth of tempest were kept in mothball condition in sg. its concealment was not to cause alarm to neighbors unnecessarily. the amx-13, imo, was adequate, light and cheap for basic tank training for ns men. for many sinkie guniangs, that was not only their 1st experience with a tank but also basic mechanics such as tracks, engine, transmission, tools, etc. the saf could not reveal more armor capabilities until neighbors started procuring mbt's such as twat's and leo's. by then the tempest was obsolete and the leotard became fashionable - thus the pubic display of boyz to men guniangs in sexy leotards.

U have got it wrong, its the other way around. When the malaysians only had Scorpions, Condors, and Sibmas, the AMX-13 was a match against them. However, the malaysians were not stupid. They know that we had the Tempest. Our agreement with them was that we would never mention we had them, and we would never train in singapore with them and in return they would not kick up a fuss. Eventually, the pressure got to much for them. Plus deteriorating relations between Singapore (thanks to Minister Mental for shooting his mouth off), forced the malaysians to buy an MBT of their own. The brand new Polish PT-91 was a good deal for them as they exchanged palm oil for partial payment. In this regard, we are the ones responsible for the arms race.

I believe that at this time, the SAF should have revealed the Tempest. If the Tempest had the latest IDF mods, then its as good as the PT-91. There was no need to buy the Leo 2.

 

[The_Hypocrite]

Yes, I was. The SM1 is better. You don't feel as naked in it. The original AMX-13 was really a death trap. 350 litres of petrol waiting to blow up. Very thin armour that could not stop a 7.62mm AP round. A double clutch non synchro transmission that was hard and tiring to operate, etc.

The SM1 modes made a lot of better changes. Improvements in powertrain (diesel engine), transmission (changed to automatic), armour ( upgraded to take 20mm hit), suspension (old torsion bars replaced by pnuematic suspension), gun (with the newly developed APFSDS round), etc.

Only idiots use petrol for tanks....tat was why in ww2 the Shermans were crap n the krauts lost out as their tanks were petrol.. Soviets used a simple and effective design which could go toe to toe with the panzer IV..that is the t 34... diesel tanks r harder to blow up

 

[frenchbriefs]

Roland Bartetzko, former German Army Paratrooper, Croatian Defense Council, Kosovo Liberation Army

The time of the Main Battle Tank (MBT) is long over. If you take a close look at how tanks are deployed in today’s conflicts you see that there is a great difference to the tank battles of the past.

In WWII armored divisions used massive tank formations to slice through enemy territory. Nowadays you see a couple of M1 patrolling in Iraq or 3 or 4 Merkavas in Gaza and you get the (wrong) impression that the tank is still the king of the battlefield.

These modern tanks face an untrained and badly equipped enemy. Even if Iraqi or Syrian insurgents have modern anti tank missiles they lack the tactical knowledge of how and where to use these weapons.

I served in a German armored unit and in an anti tank unit as well. And during my time in Bosnia and Kosovo I shot several times in combat at enemy tanks with all kinds of RPG’s. And I got shot at by enemy tanks while shooting at them.

What I saw is that if you have a well instructed and trained anti tank crew with modern anti tank missiles there’s absolutely nothing a tank can do. It will be destroyed. With a TOW you outrange every modern MBT. Even if the tank is only damaged and theoretically could drive on there is no way that an armored column would continue its mission.

Tank warfare always had a psychological side to it. Tanks used to create panic. This time is gone now. Now the tanks are scared of anti tank pockets.

And 30 years ago it was impossible for an infantry unit to carry modern night vision equipment with them. These were extremely heavy and expensive items and therefore only found in MBT’s. Now you have 4th generation night vision available for every soldier to carry around with him.

Then there is also the problem that in armored combat under conventional conditions the MBT’s have to be accompanied by (armored) infantry. There is no APC that can survive a Milan or TOW hit. So it might well be that it is difficult for an anti tank crew to combat MBTs, but they just have to get rid of the infantry and every enemy advance will be stopped. No tank unit can operate without infantry.

Still, a tank is always useful. Even the worst tank is better than no tank at all. But with the development of modern anti tank weapons we will never see WWII style “Panzerrudel” attacks against an enemy that has equal technical abilities.

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[frenchbriefs]

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[frenchbriefs]

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[frenchbriefs]

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