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Will NEWATER and Desalination Bankrupt S'pore?

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
I got sick and tired of the recent PAP propaganda about the 4th Newater plant coming online and how we are now using Newater for 30% of our water needs. I did some simple checking and from what I can see, these are the numbers I arrived at.

Daily water consumption in S'pore is about 800 million gallons.
We pay 3 sen per 1,000 gallons of water from Malaysia and than resell a portion to them at 50sen per 1,000 gallon. The PAP has never indicated what the cost to us to purify the water to this stage. I would venture a guess that we are not losing any money selling it at 50 sen. Bare in mind that many of the pumping stations, pipes, and infrastructure for this source of water has now be depreciated over the last 40 years. There is no foreseable need for infrastructure needed under this current source. Also, it is mentioned that the Malaysian water accounts for 50% of the daily S'pore water needs.

On the other hand, brand new Newater plants must be constructed, at a cost of at least $180 million per plant. We have 4 already, need a few more. Cost for allthe Newater plants is like to exceed $1 billion. Than we need Desalination plants. What the cost is, I have no idea. I am sure it will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Even worse, desalination plants require land, more than the Newater plants. The land set aside for the Newater plants and the Desalination plants have some sort of opportunity cost. These land could be more useful or productive if a factory were to be build on them. Currently, most of the land requirements under our current water system is located in Johor. i.e. the water source, the pumping stations, pipelines, etc. Only the filtration plant is located in S'pore and that occupies but a fraction of the land that all the Newater and Desalinationplants will occupy.

In addition what is the cost to produce 1000 gallons of Newater versus 1000 gallons of water under the current system. My best estimate from what I can research is $2.75-$3 Sing. That is up to RM$7. Compare this with 50 sen that we are currently producing it for. Under this assumption, Newater will cost $1.2 million a day to produce, assuming that u only need to produce enough Newater (50%) to replace the Johor supply. That's $438 million a year. The production of Newater is further dependent on energy as electricity has to be used to run the plant, and create ultraviolet radiation. It also needs much more labour to operate it than the current system. These 2 factors will go up in the future, making Newater even more expensive.

Given all these factors, we should have renewed the water agreement. Even if the Malaysians want 100 times more (RM$3) per thousand gallon, it will still be much more cheaper than Newater or desalination. Just the over $1 billion we could have saved in infrastruction construction would have been worth it. I see this as a big failure on the part of Con you. He let his ego interfere and ended up in a pissing match with Madhatter. In the end, WE are the losers.
 

Brightkid

Alfrescian
Loyal
Just need a single point of failure, or an unforeseen disaster (MIW normally cannot see it coming before it hits them), we can then drink water striaght from the sources, aka, urinal, toilet bowl (with shit floating around....etc).

Just need to wait ,we may need to beg Malaysia to sell water to us again.
 

Royalblood

Alfrescian
Loyal
Sometimes it's not about the money.

What's wrong with diversifying the sources where we get our natural resources? China has the foresight to source for natural resources in Africa becoz they know the danger of being too reliant on the Aussie bums to supply them with what they need.

If we are dependant on the fucking mats to supply us water, they will have a big bargaining chip on us and we will be fucked big time.

Let's just say it ain't easy being yellow and surrounded by mats ya.
 
U

UpYoz_olo

Guest
I got sick and tired of the recent PAP propaganda about the 4th Newater plant coming online and how we are now using Newater for 30% of our water needs. I did some simple checking and from what I can see, these are the numbers I arrived at.

Daily water consumption in S'pore is about 800 million gallons.
We pay 3 sen per 1,000 gallons of water from Malaysia and than resell a portion to them at 50sen per 1,000 gallon. The PAP has never indicated what the cost to us to purify the water to this stage. I would venture a guess that we are not losing any money selling it at 50 sen. Bare in mind that many of the pumping stations, pipes, and infrastructure for this source of water has now be depreciated over the last 40 years. There is no foreseable need for infrastructure needed under this current source. Also, it is mentioned that the Malaysian water accounts for 50% of the daily S'pore water needs.

On the other hand, brand new Newater plants must be constructed, at a cost of at least $180 million per plant. We have 4 already, need a few more. Cost for allthe Newater plants is like to exceed $1 billion. Than we need Desalination plants. What the cost is, I have no idea. I am sure it will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Even worse, desalination plants require land, more than the Newater plants. The land set aside for the Newater plants and the Desalination plants have some sort of opportunity cost. These land could be more useful or productive if a factory were to be build on them. Currently, most of the land requirements under our current water system is located in Johor. i.e. the water source, the pumping stations, pipelines, etc. Only the filtration plant is located in S'pore and that occupies but a fraction of the land that all the Newater and Desalinationplants will occupy.

In addition what is the cost to produce 1000 gallons of Newater versus 1000 gallons of water under the current system. My best estimate from what I can research is $2.75-$3 Sing. That is up to RM$7. Compare this with 50 sen that we are currently producing it for. Under this assumption, Newater will cost $1.2 million a day to produce, assuming that u only need to produce enough Newater (50%) to replace the Johor supply. That's $438 million a year. The production of Newater is further dependent on energy as electricity has to be used to run the plant, and create ultraviolet radiation. It also needs much more labour to operate it than the current system. These 2 factors will go up in the future, making Newater even more expensive.

Given all these factors, we should have renewed the water agreement. Even if the Malaysians want 100 times more (RM$3) per thousand gallon, it will still be much more cheaper than Newater or desalination. Just the over $1 billion we could have saved in infrastruction construction would have been worth it. I see this as a big failure on the part of Con you. He let his ego interfere and ended up in a pissing match with Madhatter. In the end, WE are the losers.

That you failed to see merits in this is understandable. You have too much hate and motives to be coherent. Yes, it's costly and if pap should be fu8ked, it's what took them so long to go ahead when cost was probably lower earlier.
I would not explain the advantages I see to idiots like you, period.

:oIo::oIo::oIo::oIo::oIo::oIo:
 

Cestbon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
GOOD point. Can opposition ask ministers what is the cost to produce 1000gallon of new water and desilanation water.
What is the cost of the facilities and cost to maintain. Because filter very expensive so do energy.
If as the PAPsmearer data about $3/1000 gallon. That is the cost to produce. That not yet add in billing and transportation water thru pipe and pump station cost.
So I expect water bill to go up 500% or 5 times the current rate.
 

Brightkid

Alfrescian
Loyal
......

What's wrong with diversifying the sources where we get our natural resources?.....

This is not 'diversifying the resources'. It is burning the bridge after you cross it !

Wait a minute, what PAP done was burning the bridge even BEFORE they crossed it when they announce not renewing the agreement before the alternative source is stable and proven to support the amount planned.

Depending on 1 single water source is like plugging your life support on the power line without UPS. Just like MBS' saga now.

Sometimes, being too self-confident and arrogant is bad for you when you need to go back to beg for water should things turn out not how you wanted it to be.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
This is not 'diversifying the resources'. It is burning the bridge after you cross it !

Wait a minute, what PAP done was burning the bridge even BEFORE they crossed it when they announce not renewing the agreement before the alternative source is stable and proven to support the amount planned.

Depending on 1 single water source is like plugging your life support on the power line without UPS. Just like MBS' saga now.

Sometimes, being too self-confident and arrogant is bad for you when you need to go back to beg for water should things turn out not how you wanted it to be.

PAP was trumpeting how they would open a second source of water from the Riau Islands back in the 80s. This would by far bethe cheapest way, since the water from the Riau rivers or reservoirs can be piped into S'pore and than hook up to the existing water filtration system used for the Johor water. So, what happened to that plan now? Never heard anything from them on this.

Between Lee Kuan Yew and his son Gay Loong, they have pissed off over half a dozen countries. Indonesia is pissed off at us for sheltering all the crooks from their financial scandal (Is it any wonder they kill the Riau project), Taiwan is pissed off at us and calls us peesai, China is pissed of at us for still maintaining relationship with Taiwan and for LKY's recent comments about the China military versus the US Navy, Malaysia is pissed off at us for too many reasons, the phillippines is pissed of at us for hanging their maids and treating their maids like slaves, Australia is pissed off at us for hanging their citizens, and for comments LKY made about them, etc. For a small country like ours that has to live in the world, we sure piss off a lot of neighbours. Its all Con You's ego, and PAP arrogance.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Sometimes it's not about the money.

What's wrong with diversifying the sources where we get our natural resources? China has the foresight to source for natural resources in Africa becoz they know the danger of being too reliant on the Aussie bums to supply them with what they need.

If we are dependant on the fucking mats to supply us water, they will have a big bargaining chip on us and we will be fucked big time.

Let's just say it ain't easy being yellow and surrounded by mats ya.

Stop playing the race card. There are more Chinese in Indonesia and Malaysia than there are in S'pore. There is nothing wrong with diversifying as long as there is not much difference in the cost. The Chinese diversify their natural resource source for the sale of keeping the price low and playing one supplier off against the other. When u have to pay many times more for the sake of "diversifying", even u should know at some point, the cost of diversifyign is not worth it. Better to maintain good relationships with your supplier. and ensure u always get the goods.
 

Cestbon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
PAP was trumpeting how they would open a second source of water from the Riau Islands back in the 80s. This would by far bethe cheapest way, since the water from the Riau rivers or reservoirs can be piped into S'pore and than hook up to the existing water filtration system used for the Johor water. So, what happened to that plan now? Never heard anything from them on this.

Between Lee Kuan Yew and his son Gay Loong, they have pissed off over half a dozen countries. Indonesia is pissed off at us for sheltering all the crooks from their financial scandal (Is it any wonder they kill the Riau project), Taiwan is pissed off at us and calls us peesai, China is pissed of at us for still maintaining relationship with Taiwan and for LKY's recent comments about the China military versus the US Navy, Malaysia is pissed off at us for too many reasons, the phillippines is pissed of at us for hanging their maids and treating their maids like slaves, Australia is pissed off at us for hanging their citizens, and for comments LKY made about them, etc. For a small country like ours that has to live in the world, we sure piss off a lot of neighbours. Its all Con You's ego, and PAP arrogance.

If as you said all neighbour country hate Singapore then we are doom. Just have to hang on suck the US cock.
How about Brunei relationship? :confused:
 

HellAngel

Alfrescian
Loyal
As the technology matures, the MIW are hoping that the cost would reduce to an acceptable amount.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
If as you said all neighbour country hate Singapore then we are doom. Just have to hang on suck the US cock.
How about Brunei relationship? :confused:

That is so stupid right. PAP trying to suck US cock, and if you notice, also suck China and India cock. All these countries are so far away. If they want to suck some cock, might as well by Malaysian cock.AT least we will get some water out of it.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
As the technology matures, the MIW are hoping that the cost would reduce to an acceptable amount.

No matter how much the cost reduce, it will still be many times what it is now. To replace and monitor the microfilters, use power on the RO, and also energy on the ultraviolet, in addition to all the trained and expensive techs to monitor and maintain the plant, no fight with the cost.
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Since one of the water agreement with malaysia just expired, I thought that it was high time we re-examine this topic. The PAP, PUB and NEA have been very silent on the cost breakdown to replace this source of cheap water from Malaysia. How much to build the desalination plants, how much to operate them, what is the oppotunity cost of the land the plants were located on, etc. In other words, what is the production cost per 1000 gallons of water now, versus what it was when it came from malaysia. I think its high time that oppos ask that. It would not surprise me at all if the country has to pay $500 million MORE a year for water now. Imagine how many better uses this money could have been put towards.
 

Loofydralb

Alfrescian
Loyal
Those numbers do not give a true picture of what may potentially be catastrophic for Newater.

Those high pressure pumps require lots of maitenance not forgetting high energy usage to drive them. And thos microscopic membranes, they cost a bomb and are prone to plugging and fouling. Any one of them not working properly of causes a breakthrough, its not so easy to detect. Not to mention the many thousands of chemicals that we pour down our drains. Does anyone really believe they test for every single one of those chemicals. Its just mindboggling impossible. Just to give an example:

If a car workshop decide to dump coolant that he replaces into the sink, would anybody know? We know it happens cos its impossible for NEA to check everytime we use the sink/toilet. Multiply that with the various activities that goes on daily in Singapore and I start to shudder.
The effects on our children's health will only surface decades later. By then its too late.

Desalination on the other hand costs a bomb to operate because it consumes enormous amounts of energy.

We pay for all these. I'd rather give a little more to Mahathir and retain the threat to strike than drink shitwater and not know how it mutates my sperm. By then the intransigent old man would be dead and there would not be a grave to piss on him.
 

Loofydralb

Alfrescian
Loyal
If as you said all neighbour country hate Singapore then we are doom. Just have to hang on suck the US cock.
How about Brunei relationship? :confused:

Big miscalculation about the race issue. Malaysia finds it untenable to defend the Bumi policy at the international level. Their politics at home is very slowly evolving to embrace other races.

Singapore may wake up one day to find Malaysian demographics and voting patterns changed so much that they forever become business-friendly to Singapore. Then the stupid Newater and desalination plus decades of collecting inflated utility bills ends up killing our economy when we should have bought water from Johor.

Johor will use that water to grow their economy instead. LKY will be dead when Singapore has to beg Malaysia to take them back.
 

Loofydralb

Alfrescian
Loyal
That is so stupid right. PAP trying to suck US cock, and if you notice, also suck China and India cock. All these countries are so far away. If they want to suck some cock, might as well by Malaysian cock.AT least we will get some water out of it.

LKY made a tactical error. During the Asian Financial Crisis, Mahathir came begging for help. LKY could have seized the opportunity and extended a hand.

Years later we could have gained water, cheap oil, and KTM land without any animosity. In laymans terms, I scratch your back, you scratch my back. No need black and white, its a matter of trust between big brother and small brother.

LKY's intransigence on not giving an inch for free, fearing he'd be cheated, leads us down this path of inflated costs and needing spurs to drive us harder and harder.
 
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sense

Alfrescian
Loyal
Look at how SMRT and SBS Transist are earning good revenue and yet still force the Govt to make it's residents pay more so that they have higher revenue to pay it's shareholder and you shld realise that PUB and friends would definitely not suffering on behalf of the residents.

If what you said is true, then one can expect a drastic increased in our water bills - thank-you in advance.
 

bryanlim1972

Alfrescian
Loyal
That is so stupid right. PAP trying to suck US cock, and if you notice, also suck China and India cock. All these countries are so far away. If they want to suck some cock, might as well by Malaysian cock.AT least we will get some water out of it.

Naive statement of the year goes to you. *clap clap*
 
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