Crumbling of Singapore?

[red amoeba]

So where are we on the path to making this nation a real country? We were doing fine when the Cjinese and Indian communicate with patois Malay and most Singaporeans can speak a little at least.

Another problem LKY and the present generation of leaders failed to produced, pride and patriotism in the majority of the people. I bet when it comes to the crunch, many will leave the country at a drop of the hat.

strangely, the relative affluence has to do with this apparent lack of patriotism & identity. Just look at the performance of our football team.

given today context, we cannot reverse the language policy to promote malay so that we can "unite" the country. The only way is to unite it to speak English. However, we do that - there is considerable resistance from the Chinese population. Ng did that and recall the outlash? in fact, he merely took a little step and immediately the population bashed him back.

 

[freedalas]

Looks like this is the prevalent feeling among Singaporeans and they are probably right abt LKY and the other PAP leaders..isnt this a sad reflection of the pap govt?

The whole govt is b.lless to speak up against an 88yr-old senile man who is obviously out of touch and is causing so much harm to SG?

Isnt this another sign of the crumbling of Singapore?

LKY keeps them on a leash with out-of-this-world salaries. Once they'd gotten use to this astronomical salaries and perks, it would be very very difficult to give up the lavish lifestyle and other the material benefits. The mindset is therefore of one of why sacrifice all these for the peasants, or in Singlish, "you die your own business"

 

[TracyTan866]

strangely, the relative affluence has to do with this apparent lack of patriotism & identity. Just look at the performance of our football team.

given today context, we cannot reverse the language policy to promote malay so that we can "unite" the country. The only way is to unite it to speak English. However, we do that - there is considerable resistance from the Chinese population. Ng did that and recall the outlash? in fact, he merely took a little step and immediately the population bashed him back.

Affluence, Patriotism and Identity can be mutually exclusive..But in SG's case, the pap's motivation to win medals at all costs is killing the SG identity. Look at what the infusion of foreign players has done to the SG soccer team and crowd? Singaporeans used to be very passionate when the SG team played..what happens now?

Sports is also not just abt winning medals...it's abt building teamwork, character, core values, training systems, etc..there is no short cut, unlike what the pap thinks. what do SG and Singaporeans gain by winning some table tennis medals? On the contrary, we lose our teamspirit, training system and grooming of talents, core values, etc...more losses than gains in the long run

 

[TracyTan866]

LKY keeps them on a leash with out-of-this-world salaries. Once they'd gotten use to this astronomical salaries and perks, it would be very very difficult to give up the lavish lifestyle and other the material benefits. "

Agreed..that's another bad policy and stumbling block...LKY's motivation was wrong...he wants yes-men..

 

[freedalas]

Agreed..that's another bad policy and stumbling block...LKY's motivation was wrong...he wants yes-men..

And in this instance, the PAP supporters who would always come to PAP defense by citing the situation in other countries whenever a bad incident occurs here, never do so. Shouldn't they also make references to how other policitians are paid elsewhere?

 

[Leongsam]

Agreed,you were on the topic of MRT whereas my first question was how worldly wise you are .....Ok,on the question of MRT.Let us be specif .What exactly you mean by that ,'singapore govt has done in building the MRT system in such a short time'.Are you saying such a time span is impossible by any government?

Nothing is impossible but most projects of this scale end up stalling numerous time along the way for various reasons. Very often, infrastructure projects become politicised and grind to a halt. Corruption also brings things to a standstill in many countries. Then there's blown budgets and so on.

Singapore has been able to avoid most of the pitfalls. It had one major setback when a tunnel collapsed.

 

[Nice-Gook]

But the debate isn't about the longevity of Singapore. The fact that it will die is a given. I predicted it ages ago long before Tracytan existed in this forum.

What we are discussing is why it will crumble. The threadstarter is saying that the rot has already started because of poor management by the current government. I disagree. I think the govt is doing a very good job and Singapore is still thriving and growing and will continue to do so for at least a decade or so.

My prediction of Singapore's demise is based on external factors beyond any government's control eg a change in the political balance of the region which makes trading no longer viable or a terrorist attack which rocks the confidence of the whole region. Singapore faces many threats from abroad. The Isthmus of Kra canal might really get off the drawing board and into the realms of reality.

Singaporeans need to look beyond the borders if they want to spot the first signs of crumbling. Their own govt is not the enemy.

Sam,I know you are trying your best but arguments put forth must still be tenable.Just look up what you wrote.1.Singapore will kaput in 20 to 50 yrs time because of external factors.2.Regardless Singapore is still thriving like hell because of PAP.

Does it make any sense?

Let us talk in lay man's term.Why than is PAP packing Singapore with millions more foreigners giving hope to locals that it is all for their future?Are you saying that PAP is cluless whereas you have higher wisdom?

 

[TracyTan866]

Sam,I know you are trying your best but arguments put forth must still be tenable.Just look up what you wrote.1.Singapore will kaput in 20 to 50 yrs time because of external factors.2.Regardless Singapore is still thriving like hell because of PAP.

Does it make any sense?

Let us talk in lay man's term.Why than is PAP packing Singapore with millions more foreigners giving hope to locals that it is all for their future?Are you saying that PAP is cluless whereas you have higher wisdom?

Good points you raised ..Let's see how Sam wriggles out of this

 

[Nice-Gook]

Nothing is impossible but most projects of this scale end up stalling numerous time along the way for various reasons. Very often, infrastructure projects become politicised and grind to a halt. Corruption also brings things to a standstill in many countries. Then there's blown budgets and so on.

Singapore has been able to avoid most of the pitfalls. It had one major setback when a tunnel collapsed.

You see,there we go again.Talking about other countries.If you do than my first question and post stands.That is how much do you really know about other countries?Meaning wholesome .

 

[red amoeba]

Affluence, Patriotism and Identity can be mutually exclusive..But in SG's case, the pap's motivation to win medals at all costs is killing the SG identity. Look at what the infusion of foreign players has done to the SG soccer team and crowd? Singaporeans used to be very passionate when the SG team played..what happens now?

Sports is also not just abt winning medals...it's abt building teamwork, character, core values, training systems, etc..there is no short cut, unlike what the pap thinks. what do SG and Singaporeans gain by winning some table tennis medals? On the contrary, we lose our teamspirit, training system and grooming of talents, core values, etc...more losses than gains in the long run

I think it boils down to dollars and cents again...not the direct $$ from winning an Olympic medal but the attributions to the CV that we may one day host a major event. the amount of money spent on YOG, honestly, I don't agree with Vivian regarding putting us on the global map.

Yes, i understand regarding hosting SEA games since we have not been hosting and good neighborhood spirit means each take turn to host...but at a decent budget.

Its more than bringing talent (hardware) to make us successful in sports - alot of software engineering needs to be made.

PAP has been making alot of hardware investments - its software part that they need to do.

For nearly 50 years, we have depended on hardware upgrades to get to where we are today, its time to concentrate on software development.

 

[TracyTan866]

You see,there we go again.Talking about other countries.If you do than first my question and post stands.That is how much do you really know about other countries?Meaning wholesome .

Typical of Sam to talk abt other countries when it suits him. I wonder how much he knows abt these countries and how relevant is their inference. We shd be focused when debating an issue

 

[Nice-Gook]

Good points you raised ..Let's see how Sam wriggles out of this

Which begets the question if PAP is clueless how can they manage Singapore to thrive?

btw;pls give Sam some room.i think he is simply playing the devil's advocate.

 

[freedalas]

But the debate isn't about the longevity of Singapore. The fact that it will die is a given. I predicted it ages ago long before Tracytan existed in this forum.

What we are discussing is why it will crumble. The threadstarter is saying that the rot has already started because of poor management by the current government. I disagree. I think the govt is doing a very good job and Singapore is still thriving and growing and will continue to do so for at least a decade or so.



My prediction of Singapore's demise is based on external factors beyond any government's control eg a change in the political balance of the region which makes trading no longer viable or a terrorist attack which rocks the confidence of the whole region. Singapore faces many threats from abroad. The Isthmus of Kra canal might really get off the drawing board and into the realms of reality.

Singaporeans need to look beyond the borders if they want to spot the first signs of crumbling. Their own govt is not the enemy.

I agree that for a city-state like S'pore, the external factors will have a substantial impact on how long it will last. History is not on our side, many city-states don't last very long. But it is not correct to totally ignore internal factors. They do impact on the survival of a city-state especially when the policies are wrong, the demise will be faster than waiting for the external factors to cause their effect. It's just like a human being. No one knows when when external factors such as cancers, heart attacks, strokes will strike anyone and thereby causing early death, one can only call it fate. But if one were to lead a very unhealthy lifestyle of excessing drinking, smoking, over-eating, the chances of an early demise would significantly increase. These are likened to internal factors which are brought about by govt policies. In the case of unhealthy lifestyle, they are the equivalent of ill-conceived policies and short term thinking. So the situation is one of killing oneself due to one own actions rather than what external factors may do to u. That's what the PAP is doing.

 

[TracyTan866]

Which begets the question if PAP is clueless how can they manage Singapore to thrive?

btw;.

The present pap leadership is incompetent and clueless. What we are seeing are the results of previous pap leaders' achievements. they are riding on the goodwill of previous pap leaders and many older Singaporeans are still garteful. But we must be objective and call the present pap what they are. If we dont hold the present pap on a leash, they may just destroy everything we have built.

 

[Fook Seng]

I could claim anything here but just let me say that I've railways have always been high on my list of interests and I've done lot's of reading regarding the history of the trains.

Nothing in my collection of articles and books documents the building of a mass rapid transport system as comprehensive as the one in Singapore in a short space of 30 years.

If there is one, please let me know. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

For the exception as far as metros and trains are concerned, I think you have to look at China. In terms of economic growth, take a look again at certain regions of China such as Shenzhen and Shanghai and even in surprising places like Cebu in the Philippines which had logged in some good years 20% growth.

 

[TracyTan866]

btw;pls give Sam some room.i think he is simply playing the devil's advocate.

You are too kind to Sam...Looking at his posts, I dont think he is playing the devil's advocate. he is either stubborn or lost or...

 

[red amoeba]

For the exception as far as metros and trains are concerned, I think you have to look at China. In terms of economic growth, take a look again at certain regions of China such as Shenzhen and Shanghai and even in surprising places like Cebu in the Philippines which had logged in some good years 20% growth.

there are great undercurrents behind these growth. in fact the income disparity that come with this growth has caused a great social unbalance that is threatening to tip over if not managed properly.

 

[TracyTan866]

But if one were to lead a very unhealthy lifestyle of excessing drinking, smoking, over-eating, the chances of an early demise would significantly increase. These are likened to internal factors which are brought about by govt policies. In the case of unhealthy lifestyle, they are the equivalent of ill-conceived policies and short term thinking. So the situation is one of killing oneself due to one own actions rather than what external factors may do to u. That's what the PAP is doing.

good points. The posts in this thread are mainly talking abt internal factors that can cause the crumbling of SG

 

[TracyTan866]

there are great undercurrents behind these growth. in fact the income disparity that come with this growth has caused a great social unbalance that is threatening to tip over if not managed properly.

Yes, uncontrolled economic growth can cause huge income disparity. Economists know that this is not good for a country. Good income distribution is wise...that's not what the pap believes

 

[Leongsam]

Sam,I know you are trying your best but arguments put forth must still be tenable.Just look up what you wrote.1.Singapore will kaput in 20 to 50 yrs time because of external factors.2.Regardless Singapore is still thriving like hell because of PAP.

Does it make any sense?

Let us talk in lay man's term.Why than is PAP packing Singapore with millions more foreigners giving hope to locals that it is all for their future?Are you saying that PAP is cluless whereas you have higher wisdom?

I've mentioned this numerous times in this forum and even in the old forum on delphi... if the govt does not import a substantial number of non muslims to balance the Muslim birthrate which is more than twice that of the Chinese birthrate, Singapore might as well put the white flag up now as the fight will be lost tomorrow. If the percentage of the muslim population in Singapore reaches the 40% mark, you might as well kiss life as you know it goodbye. Call me alarmist but that's the way I see it. However, there's a limit to how far this can go. It buys time but it's not a solution. It's like cancer treatment. You hope to extend life so that you're still around when a better drug comes along.

The govt is hell bent on giving Singapore a fighting chance of surviving as long as possible. That's why it is obsessed with accumulating assets, spending billions on defense yearly, frantically building infrastructure and doing whatever it can to increase the country's odds of survival for as long as possible. That, in a nutshell, is the primary role of any govt. Welfare, showing a kind face etc are all secondary.

My prediction is 20 to 50 years but that's my pessimistic outlook viewed from abroad. The govt could well be convinced they can keep Singapore going a lot longer. They could be right. I could well be wrong. Nobody can predict the future. We can only speculate.