Association of Muslim Professionals finally wake up and take their PAP partner.

[scroobal]

The term "politically correct" was not coined for nothing. When every adult has a vote to cast in a democracy, you never lay out the hard truth. You balance, you moderate, you massage and you integrate the various views and needs to an acceptable middle ground.

Not everyone is born equal so telling a clerk that he does not amount to nothing is not going to help anyone or any society.

The hard truths are spoken in the privacy of responsible people who are prepared to help correct anomalies and bring balance. It is never done in print or spoken in public.

It no different to raising a family. You do not tell the kid who is struggling that he is not going to beat his better sibling, do you. You encourage him.

This old man marginalised them and then telling them they are not integrating. He ostracised them from NS and he wants them to integrate. He put them in construction brigade as a race and he wants to integrate them. When I saw the malays in Jalan Bahar, doing their NS in the construction brigade, I then told myself that we will live to regret this.

On the contrary. What Singapore needs now is an even stronger version of his brand of governance.

There is far too much pussyfooting around important issues nowadays. Singaporeans need a good dose of the hard knocks to make them realise that life is tough and can only get worse.

 

[Leongsam]

Not everyone is born equal so telling a clerk that he does not amount to nothing is not going to help anyone or any society.

On the contrary. I've seen many cases where telling someone the hard truth inspired them to achieve what everyone thought wasn't possible.

Political correctness has been the downfall of many Western Nations. OZ, NZ, Britain have all gone backwards as a result of trying to please everyone and ending up pleasing nobody while feeding the spiral of never ending demands from minority groups who want their sensitivities catered for by the government.

 

[kingrant]

Be hard truths as they may, I am sure the backlash will come in the GE. The PAP can lose the Malay vote, and his son regime will have to carry the cross. This is not about hard truths; this is about emotions, as it has always been.

 

[myo539]

AMP has crafted a truly solid response.
QUOTE]

What solid response - just talking cock - like the Malay Muslims. What MM Lee said is a true reflection of the situation among Muslims - specifically Malay Muslim.

Many find it hard to sit down and eat lunch or socialise with Minah colleagues unlike in the past. They all wear tudungs. They get together and form click in the workplace. You feel like you are in a mosque in the office. Even the Malay men, find it hard - not like in the past kampong days. Even Lawyer Subhas talking on Radio 90.5 FM with Richmonds last night said what the hell - all this racy thing - never happened during his childhood day at Sembawang Naval Base. P Nathan would have said the same thing - in private. Even Nair's son married a Chinese. Which Agung marry a Chinese? The Johor one married an angmoh.

Indians marry Chinese, Chinese marry Indians. How many Malays marry Chinese? Chinese girls will find it strange to wear a tudung. Chinese men will find it hard to wear a sarong, a songkok and not to eat bak kua, bak kut teh, sar siow mee, bak chor mee, char siow pow etc.

MM Lee is saying what many are ball-less to say. I think it's good that he gives them a kick to wake them up. Everytime he says something true about the "sensitive" people, the neighbouring abangs panick and start building their defensive wall before they run amok.

Let's wait for another revolution in the Arab world.

 

[Dreamer1]

Bro Scroobal,a good one!

." It is not clear why MM Lee has chosen to repeat them at this point. "

Wow,AMP is great!

The first professional body to tell MM LKY that enough is enough,enough of ererction talk cock by MM LKY.when ever he has to fight an erections,invariably he would bring out the BOOGEYMAN.This round even at the expense of stiring up racial shits which he has spent his whole life claiming to be working for harmony.

Is MM LKY a n elder statesman,absolutley NOT!
Is MM LKY a dirty politician,he definiately is one,ranked among the top in the world!

 

[Dreamer1]

If LKY's "truths" were honey coated and palatable, they wouldn't be called "hard truths" would they.

Everything he says is spot on. Everyone knows that Islam is divisive by nature and is getting more so. Everyone knows the Malays will never catch up with the non Muslim communities for obvious reasons. Everyone knows that Singapore is in a precarious position by any measure.

There is nothing in his "hard truths" log that isn't exactly that... the cold hard truth.

I would suggest that MM LKY submit himself to HARDTALK,that is the forum for such hard talk not in a local GENERAL ERECTIONS Talk.

i note that MM LKY has refused to submit himself to HARDTALK-the proper forum!

 

[elephanto]

I read this thread with interest & enjoyed a few chuckles.

But oh, how I respected AMPs balanced & well-crafted response, totally credible, cogent & unhysterical.

I hope in vain that the tone & quality of views in this forum can aspire to such class & more importantly, civility (there is repressed indignation in between the lines of course).

But the reason why I contribute is to add my take on Scroobal/ThickFaceBlackHeart vs LeongSam.

Don't get me wrong, by all means, bros who believe LKY is senile, outdated etc, please continue your beliefs - in Singapore, you are still free to hold on to your beliefs (my view)

In his usual sardonic style, Scroobal always make a good read - but I do not totally agree with him 100%, no need to.

On the other hand, LeongSam is both blunt & cynical in the same vein.

What's my stand ?

1. LKY has been consistent from Day One - , you read his latest book, actually his pet views have mellowed with age & new scientific research. But of course, some of his pet beliefs are ..... ha ha he is entitled to his prejudices & fixated stands on areas where science do not have a concrete answer.

But more importantly, cut him some slack, for a man nearing his nineties, he conceded as much - his contact with present day SIngaporeans are limited & filtered so his grasp of the pulse of society is weaker than before.

Also, naturally he longs for his good old days where Malay womenfolk don't wear tudungs (not that there is anything wrong in that) ....

I believe his inner message is the distrust of Middle Eastern Sunni/Shiite/muslim brotherhood influence & the firmly held belief that religion is a powerful influence & potent fuse .... hence while he knows he cannot object to rising religiosity, he still feels the potential to influence communities through religion is not to be likely dismisse.

Scroobal made a good point: objection is not to Old Man's 'Hard Truths' but to it being publicly published - still for me,I would say it is a good balloon, now we can see for ourselves everyone's stance - their take, slant & intensity of their response(or non response in the case of PAP Malay Leaders) ..... be it from MUIS, AMP, even the mischievious Utusan across the Causeway & the so-called high powered academics & professors from Malaysia's highest thinktank in Defence & what not Security Committees....

2. LeongSam has no solutions - just fuck it, damn it, screw it & let's stay cynical...... fine, you are not alone.. most so-called intelligentsia are like that too..

3. I subscribe to a mix of LKY-GKS-Rajaratnam soul : LKY for his political acumen & will to execute, GKS for his even, rooted, engineer-like, business-like proactivity & Raja's idealistic bent.

4. In the final analysis, much as I grow up in awe, then no awe, then disdain, sneering, condemning & grudgingly respect the Old Man, I find it very tiresome to hear him express :-

- misgivings of the Younger Generation: untempered - is it their fault to grow up in relative prosperity ? unrealistic view of nationhood etc - is it their fault that your nation-building social engineering succeed ?

- Singapore is not a nation yet ..... this is the most frustrating unimaginative view of Old Man repeated ad nauseum !
sure Old Man, I know where you are coming from, but more harm then good is created by your incessant drumming of these words ....
in similar vein, describing National Pledge, one people one nation one Singapore as merely an 'aspiration', Kanina ! Talk about mixed messaging !

NO ! I born in the Sixties, believe from day one from school days, that my recitation of my National Pledge is from the Heart - that a Vision is an Ideal - an IDEAL THAT SHOULD BE ACTIVELY PURSUED ..... & if eventually in the nature of a fractious society or simply the abject cynicism of the human condition that never a nation shall Singapore be by Harry's 'cold hard truths', THEN IT SHOULD NOT BE BECAUSE IT WAS FOR A LACK OF TRYING OUR DARN BEST TO CREATE OUR NATION ! Not for lack of trying, people !!!!

Keep ramming home 'SIngapore....not a nation until & unless....' is simply harming the National Cause of Building ' One Nation, One People, One Singapore'.

Stemming from this source, whether to embrace multiX( X being language, race, religion, culture etc) wholeheartedly or not, the subtle differences in holding to principles then extrapolated & manifested itself in all its logical consequences :-

- organizing self-help not in a color-blind manner but through racial communities : CDAC, Mendaki, SINDA etc

- prudent to cast aside ideals & practise hard-headed pragmatism re: Malay citizens in SAF, sensitive defence deployments etc.... sure ..... err on the side of caution, BUT, 46 yrs after independence, still wary? then forever wary & 100 yrs from now, still repeating the cynical belief no, Singapore still not yet a nation, unless & until....... DAMN! Then, to me, that's making it a SELF_FULFILING PROPHECY !

My final point :-

IMHO, Islam is both a simple & complex religion.
The Prophets Teachings is again passed down through different interpretations - theory & practice, hardith & hadari or something like that, Muslim bros forgive my unrefined general knowledge....

But how much is true teachings, how much is simply Arabic, Middle Eastern practices & trappings of a age long gone ?

I can respect the concept of modesty but I for the life of me find tudungs a mystery in a humid, nay HOT climate like tropical Singapore ! (sure, tudungs in Middle East protect people from sand, dust & preying eyes) So, when I was growing up, Malay girls, few wear tudung.... now if you don't wear one, your faith as a Muslim is subconsciously /invariably questioned ! So I say kudos to Marina Mahathir for being a independent modern Muslim woman even though I think her father is bonkers .......

In summary, Malay Muslim Leaders must acknowledge that religion will always be a powerful pull on their conscience.

Of course this applies to other theistic religions like the followers of Judaism, Christianity.

But how the leading Islamic authorities interpret & propound their religious pronouncements through fatwas etc - who is to say the Egyptian, Arabian, or even Iraqi/Iranian centres of Islam theologian & respected academicians CANNOT be infiltrated & exploited by the extreme Jihadist ? Witness Muslim Brotherhood's ongoing subversion in Mubarat's Egypt (Mubarat no saint but....).

So concerns remain concerns.

Whether a public, very candid public airing is good or smart thing to do, each can have their reasoned opinions deeming this good or bad.

But a certain acceptance & bold embracing & endorsement of fellow Singaporeans whether of Malay, Indian, Eurasian or Chinese ethnicity must happen ! Accept wholehearted as citizens instead of always viewing our society & nation through the prism of race & religion !

Treat people with trust, dignity & respect & they will respond in kind... (if not, then respond accordingly...)

The more, in the name of 'Hard Truths' you cast 'concerns' over race & religion of fellow Singaporeans, the more this 'concern' will come across as 'ASPERSIONS'!

One last thing of course I conclude by saying, LKY's actions simply render their own PAP Malay Leadership as ball-less eunuchs & cowards.... which unfortunately, some are & some aren't.

'nuff said, cheers to all !

 

[halsey02]

Looks like you have not read their media release carefully. They are not denying the "hard truth" but pointing out that it should not be in print. They also highlighted that Chinese went down their merry way with speak mandarin/SAP schools and then expect the Malays to be compliant. They have mentioned and others have mentioned in parliament about school segregation and the same prick is scolding the malays about integration.

It like a pedophile giving a lesson on schoolyard bullies. You can't have your cake and eat it.

Since this govt took and introduced racial quotas, SAP schools, speak Mandarin campaigns, all the races have stopped integrating. When was the last time we heard out kids visiting a schoolfriend of Indian or Malay race at his home or going down for deepavalli.

I remember clearly my school days when we dying for deepavali, hari raya and christmas. There was an aunty that made the best vadai in our neighbourhood. Today most kids have never tasted vadai.

It about time the old man learnt some hard truths himself.

The MIW's had tasted Nirvana & ambrosia made from the blood sweat & tears of the people...what Vadai!...many do not know what that is!!

It is a never ending story of the 'dog chasing its tail', the blame game, the race game, the language game, the religion game....

What is hard truth that is to blame...

 

[Malays Must Vote PAP!]

This Chinaman who does not belong to this part of the world said this of the China Chinese:

"The more successful they are, the less they will think of you and the more they will treat you with condescension".

What he said applies to the Chinese in Singapore and what he says reflects the characteristic and culture of the Chinese in China and those of the Chinese diaspora.

The Chinese can be akin to parasites living off its hosts. Once the parasite has sucked enough blood, it either moves on to another host or will attempt to take over the host. Likewise for the Chinese. Once they have suck enough money from a country and its people, they will either emigrate to another country to leech off the new country or attempt to take over the country they have been leeching from.

It has taken decades for our community but we have finally woken up to the fact that the Chinese led by this unwanted Chinaman are trying to take over and usurp our Tanah Melayu. Worst, this Chinaman is now trying to usurp our religious teachings. He must be a stupid fool to think he can and will succeed.

 

[Malays Must Vote PAP!]

However, he knows perfectly well this isn't going to happen. His hard truths are simply a revelation of his thoughts, free of the political correctness bullshit that has smothered the West in recent years. It's a breath of fresh air and it has got people debating the issue passionately which is why he put them in print in the first place.

One of the hard truths that this Lee fella will wake up to is that we will now assert our ownership of our land, our Tanah Melayu, that he and his fellow Chinese have been trying to usurp and think they have successfully usurped.

If this pendatang and his fellow Chinese pendatangs think they can now do as they please and turn our land into a Chinese country because they have been successful in usurping our land, they are sadly mistaken.

 

[Perspective]

I read the old man's Muslim remarks, the Hard Truths book and his school travels as signs that the old man will be stepping down and not run for the election in 2011. He wants to do it, but his outbursts show that he continues to worry and want to knock his principles down people's throats.

 

[coolguy]

Agree. You can't teach an old and dying dog any new tricks. Just a pity too many yes men all over - cabinet, parliament and civil service. No one had the courage to tell old man he should adapt to a changing society and not the other way round. Not even Ngiam Tong Dow. Ngiam only start to talk some sense after leaving the civil service.

What for? Is it worth it?
Just get their big fat pay check every month and big fat bonuses enough already.
Why go stir up unneccessary trouble and landed oneself in hot soup?
Use your brain.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

On the contrary. I've seen many cases where telling someone the hard truth inspired them to achieve what everyone thought wasn't possible.

Political correctness has been the downfall of many Western Nations. OZ, NZ, Britain have all gone backwards as a result of trying to please everyone and ending up pleasing nobody while feeding the spiral of never ending demands from minority groups who want their sensitivities catered for by the government.

haha screwball the irritant got pawned by sam.

This asshole is particularly sensitive to the malays and probably indians too or maybe all non chinese races. The very fact that he's willing to even lie about their own predicament which is simply due to their own doing and not chinese racism shows that this asshole loves to somehow pass the blame for malay failures unto others yet this would not be the case if a chinese fails.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

As I have stated elsewhere, only Malays with backbones align with the AMP. Kudos to the AMP. On this clear day, Malays can see forever that Muis has long been a PAP prop and stooge, and that their brighter future lies with AMP. The Malay Bureau also stands to gain potentially from this fallout if it plays its card well.

The M in amp stands for muslims and not malay. It's not the association for malay professionals but MUSLIM professionals. I can bet there are many non malay muslims in there like chinese muslims for eg.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

AMP has crafted a truly solid response.
QUOTE]

What solid response - just talking cock - like the Malay Muslims. What MM Lee said is a true reflection of the situation among Muslims - specifically Malay Muslim.

Many find it hard to sit down and eat lunch or socialise with Minah colleagues unlike in the past. They all wear tudungs. They get together and form click in the workplace. You feel like you are in a mosque in the office. Even the Malay men, find it hard - not like in the past kampong days. Even Lawyer Subhas talking on Radio 90.5 FM with Richmonds last night said what the hell - all this racy thing - never happened during his childhood day at Sembawang Naval Base. P Nathan would have said the same thing - in private. Even Nair's son married a Chinese. Which Agung marry a Chinese? The Johor one married an angmoh.

Indians marry Chinese, Chinese marry Indians. How many Malays marry Chinese? Chinese girls will find it strange to wear a tudung. Chinese men will find it hard to wear a sarong, a songkok and not to eat bak kua, bak kut teh, sar siow mee, bak chor mee, char siow pow etc.

MM Lee is saying what many are ball-less to say. I think it's good that he gives them a kick to wake them up. Everytime he says something true about the "sensitive" people, the neighbouring abangs panick and start building their defensive wall before they run amok.

Let's wait for another revolution in the Arab world.

Good comments. It's somehow in everyone's nature to mollycoddle the malays and not even present them the hard truths. Guess what happens? They will never ever ever learn.

The part you mentioned about the minahs only sticking to themselves shows that perhaps it's not the chinese that don't want to integrate it's the malays that don't want to. Yet guess what, it's obviously offensive to say that.

We have 2 types of ppl that cannot see the situation. The first type are simply cowed by fear, fear of being ostrachized and being called a racist and want to be politically correct if they even dare to mention that the malays are also responsible for their predicament and not due to society. The 2nd type is even worse, they either know or do not know but most likely they know the true situation but still want to place the blame solely unto other parties namely society and that of chinese racism. Screwball is a perfect eg of the 2nd group of ppl. Always pointing the blame at others never trying to do some self reflection. It takes 2 hands to clap, if you try clapping if one hand you clap much slowly and your one hand is tired out. This is the situation in sg. Malays simply not doing any self reflection and getting sensitive and offended when truths that are non flattering about them are revealed. They don't want to clap, they want the other party to do the clapping so they just stay still and don't move while the other arm is doing all the work clapping.

 

[Jah_rastafar_I]

This Chinaman who does not belong to this part of the world said this of the China Chinese:

"The more successful they are, the less they will think of you and the more they will treat you with condescension".

What he said applies to the Chinese in Singapore and what he says reflects the characteristic and culture of the Chinese in China and those of the Chinese diaspora.

The Chinese can be akin to parasites living off its hosts. Once the parasite has sucked enough blood, it either moves on to another host or will attempt to take over the host. Likewise for the Chinese. Once they have suck enough money from a country and its people, they will either emigrate to another country to leech off the new country or attempt to take over the country they have been leeching from.

It has taken decades for our community but we have finally woken up to the fact that the Chinese led by this unwanted Chinaman are trying to take over and usurp our Tanah Melayu. Worst, this Chinaman is now trying to usurp our religious teachings. He must be a stupid fool to think he can and will succeed.

Hey piece of shit look at your nick. Who's the leader of the PAP? So are you going to get all your m&d bros to vote for PAP?


Wow looks like you want to betray your master. Damn didn't know a running dog like you would also turn traitor.

 

[Papsmearer]

Looks like the marriage of convenience had ended. Kudos to AMP for standing up. Old man just screwed his own party and lets wait for the GE to see the backlash. I am sure NSP Malay bureau is now in the limelight.


http://www.amp.org.sg/amp07/web/view/main.asp?id=ART00002-2011

AMP's Official Response to Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew's Comments in Hard Truths to Keep Singapore Going



27 January 2011

MEDIA STATEMENT


AMP Responds to Comments by Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew in Hard Truths to Keep Singapore Going



The Association of Muslim Professionals (AMP) deeply regrets certain comments made by Minister Mentor (MM) Mr Lee Kuan Yew in his book Hard Truths to Keep Singapore Going. These comments are in relation to the practice of Islam by the Malay-Muslim community (MMC) where MM Lee had urged the MMC to be less strict in their practice of Islam in order to facilitate integration, and in relation to the issue of gaps between the MMC and other communities in Singapore, where MM Lee opined that the MMC will never catch up with the other communities. We note that these views of MM Lee are not new. It is not clear why MM Lee has chosen to repeat them at this point.



Issued by: Board of Directors, AMP


END

AMP is smart. With this statement, they are forcing the current govt. to either come to the rescue of Old Goat or to disavow him. They will have no choice but to defend Old Goat's statement in a very public debate. AMP has fired the initial salvo already. Look for the PAP to respond either thru the PAP controlled MUIS, or one of the malay ministers. They will not send a chinese minister to counter the AMP allegations. AMP has to expect a protracted debate on this, and they need to start researching all the prior PAP comments on the malay race. I recall in the 80s when Gay Loong was the minister of defence he said words to the effect that you cannot trust malays in the army during times of conflicts. AMP should use these examples and prove that this issue of MM looking down at the malaysis endemic and ingrained into the PAP. Also, the release of a book insulting malays on the eve of CNY is really a slap in the face of the malays and smacks of chinese chauvinism.

 

[Papsmearer]

As I have stated elsewhere, only Malays with backbones align with the AMP. Kudos to the AMP. On this clear day, Malays can see forever that Muis has long been a PAP prop and stooge, and that their brighter future lies with AMP. The Malay Bureau also stands to gain potentially from this fallout if it plays its card well.

The malays are like any other race in singapore, all spineless.The malays who have any guts have already moved to malaysia, andtaken up PR or citizenship there. The chinese who have any guts are in western countries. What remains are subservient morons who are too caught up in the rat race.

 

[Papsmearer]

If LKY's "truths" were honey coated and palatable, they wouldn't be called "hard truths" would they.

Everything he says is spot on. Everyone knows that Islam is divisive by nature and is getting more so. Everyone knows the Malays will never catch up with the non Muslim communities for obvious reasons. Everyone knows that Singapore is in a precarious position by any measure.

There is nothing in his "hard truths" log that isn't exactly that... the cold hard truth.

Sam as usual, your shit for brains logic is amazing. Yes, there are many cold hard truths about malays, just as there are about chinese. Why dun LKY point out some cold hard truths about chinese too? How about they are greedy, money grubbing and will stab their own relatives in the back for money? How about they are so driven by paper qualifications that they are driving their own children to suicide? Ever heard of a malay kid or indian kid commit suicide due to poor results in school?
U should know the one person's so call hard truths is another person's bullshit. Like that u might as well say that blacks in america are pimps, drug dealers, welfare recipients, whores, drug addicts, lazy, gangsters, etc. That would be LKY's hard truth. But wait, one of them is the president now, another was in charge of the defence forces, etc.
Maybe u never consider the malays are not interested in catching up with the other communities in termsof money success. They are smart enough to see that the pursue of this has a price. maybe u should be smart enough to shut the fuck up.

 

[fukyuman]

The old man is dead on with his observations.

Other ethnic groups may view them with suspicions and why not? In the past was racial riots and now it was indiscriminate bombings. The so called peaceful Singaporeans sit on the fence. The irritating signs are there that they would have nothing to do with their neighbors. Go to coffeeshops opposite their mosques and you will find yourselves ignored by the waiters. Suddenly the most reviled animals are dogs in a pets loving nation. The young malays hardly mixed, further reinforcing stereotypes of themselves.

I wonder when the tudung craze going to stop. Even toddlers are wearing it. Some go the extra mile with Osama's style turban and veils. How many buddhist, christian, or hindu parent would send their children to full time religious school. A good muslim listens to his teacher but what if the teacher believe in heaven with virgins and the quickest way to go there?