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Singapore - a Nation or an Economy?

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
The first discernible change began in 2000 when when foreigners became quite conspicious in our estates, buses and trains, schools from Kindergarden to tertiary institutions, at eateries and drinking joints. In swimming pools and churches. They seem to come from all walks of life and from nearly all parts of Asia and Europe.

They became the engine of growth. To fuel the economy and to keep the country competitive.

The same tiny spread of land suddenly held over 4M people well above what we were told was 2.3M. With more mouths to feed, consumption levels rose, demand increased and prices began a steady and upward trend. CPF no longer could sustain us in retirement.

Our parents and grandparents became familiar sight in fast food outlets, forming the bedrock of cleaning crews for the multitude of buildings and facilities and retirement was no longer an option or a feature of a modern developing country. The clock seem to go backwards.

Space became an issue, jobs became an issue, accent became an issue, language became an issue, nationality became an issue, eating in MRT trains became an issue, streetwalking became an issue, cleanliness and hygiene became an issue, scholarships became an issue, roads became an issue, free flowing traffic became an issue, parking became an issue. Even crossing the the causeways to space and fresh airs became an issue.The country began to morph faster than any other any other country on earth.

This is not about foreigners or migrants as singapore was built on the backs of migrants. This is about nationhood and building a better society. Its about allowing every singaporean who is prepared to toil to be part of the country's wealth and future. Its about managing inflows and outflows of people. Its about identity. Its about National Service and loyalty. Its about a Nationalism and pride. It certainly not about the economy. And its certainly not about economic indices to be measured by. Its certainly not the place or the time for trials and errors.

You know you are in trouble when an expat tells you after 20 years that life was so much better then, when driving was a breeze, rentals were affordable, pubs had space and shopping was a delight.

Are we on the right track. Is there someone with an alternative view or an approach. Is there a safety meachanism to stop bad and misguided policies. Is there an opportunity to be heard and to asnwer the call for validation.

Have we taken a turn and can't come back. Are we going to lose a generation.
 

ahbengsong

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Loyal
Singapore is already losing its 60 baby boomers overseas.... for those who did not migrate are not living in singapore either.... if the pap government wants to have a hotel, so be it...

beng
 

Ah Guan

Alfrescian
Loyal
So what can be done?

The establishment refuses to acknowledge there is a social problem.

LKY says sinkapore will never have an identity.


 

guy2100

Alfrescian
Loyal
Our country's high income seems to be neutralized by the high cost of living. Simple understanding of economics will tell you that importing large numbers of foreigners from poor countries will inevitably pulls down the wages of the local populace. The growing number of people will pull up the cost of living(rental, housing, food, transport, services). Now the government understands this spiral effect. They blockade CPF withdrawal upon retirement, leaving very little monthly stipend and forces the majority of Singaporeans to continue working in menial jobs after their retirement. Till now, no social security measures are in place. The growing numbers of Singaporeans migrating overseas(it seems to be reported many times in ST these days) to countries where their government gives priority to their citizens attest to this phenomena. Migration is no longer a dream for many Singaporeans but a choice. The remaining people living in Singapore are those who don't mind living a highly stressful life, those who don't have the means to migrate and the foreigners(they are everywhere now, aren't they). Singapore is a history in the making, the first country in the planet where the local population will eventually be outnumbered by foreigners. The PAP holds the iron grip and there is nothing Singaporeans can do about it. However come 2011, hey they do have a choice! Which Singapore will they create then? Your guess is as good as mine.
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
... Are we on the right track. Is there someone with an alternative view or an approach. Is there a safety meachanism to stop bad and misguided policies. Is there an opportunity to be heard and to asnwer the call for validation ...

my humble 2 cents,

it just seems to me as thou' the modern Singapore simply inherited the genes for attracting migrant workers here, and it seems like that's just about the only way we all came by.

to be completely honest, unless a meteorite carrying precious metals comes falling from the sky and land in our backyard, we wouldn't have much except to bank on technology and excellent PR to survive in this rapidly changing world currently.

i still dream of the day where Singapore would be hailed as a heaven on earth and her Citizens would be synonymous with compassion, grace, and intellectual humility... a nice daydream hor? :biggrin:
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Singapore, a country or an economy? Or should the question be, is it a family or a company, or is it unquestionably a family company?
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
my humble 2 cents,

it just seems to me as thou' the modern Singapore simply inherited the genes for attracting migrant workers here, and it seems like that's just about the only way we all came by.

to be completely honest, unless a meteorite carrying precious metals comes falling from the sky and land in our backyard, we wouldn't have much except to bank on technology and excellent PR to survive in this rapidly changing world currently.

i still dream of the day where Singapore would be hailed as a heaven on earth and her Citizens would be synonymous with compassion, grace, and intellectual humility... a nice daydream hor? :biggrin:
I just hope a visionary steps forward and takes to the new deal.
 

NgEjay

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
it just seems to me as thou' the modern Singapore simply inherited the genes for attracting migrant workers here, and it seems like that's just about the only way we all came by.

Dear Zhihau,

If attracting migrant workers is truly in our genetic makeup, perhaps we should be worried. Last century, that genetic makeup served us well, enabling us to grow into a full-fledged nation comprising people of diverse abilities. But today, that genetic makeup is causing our home to turn into a hotel, with the values of national identity being eroded over time.

I should think this attracting of migrant workers is not inherited, but engineered by the present elite to milk the nation and avail themselves the fruits of globalization whilst leaving citizens to shoulder the consequences.

It is precisely because human beings are Singapore's only asset, that's why its so important to make every citizen feel important and avail each citizen maximum opportunity for both personal growth as well as developing economically-relevant abilities.

When we erode the values of nationhood and identity with an overly-liberal FT policy, we risk marginalizing the only asset that we have -- our own flesh and blood citizens.

When the body of our nation is bereft of its soul, is it any wonder we start behaving like zombies, who, without even needing to rise from the grave, can sense something is terribly wrong?
 

maninsinsha

New Member
The first discernible change began in 2000 when when foreigners became quite conspicious in our estates, buses and trains, schools from Kindergarden to tertiary institutions, at eateries and drinking joints. In swimming pools and churches. They seem to come from all walks of life and from nearly all parts of Asia and Europe.

This is not about foreigners or migrants as singapore was built on the backs of migrants. This is about nationhood and building a better society. Its about allowing every singaporean who is prepared to toil to be part of the country's wealth and future. Its about managing inflows and outflows of people. Its about identity. Its about National Service and loyalty. Its about a Nationalism and pride. It certainly not about the economy. And its certainly not about economic indices to be measured by. Its certainly not the place or the time for trials and errors.

Have we taken a turn and can't come back. Are we going to lose a generation.

Our forefathers came to this little island in search of a place of their own and thus, help in creating what Singapore is today. There are passion, love and a burning desire to create a better environment for themselves and their descendants. The subsequent true blue Singaporeans have seen, heard, tasted what our forefathers had gone through and thus they are able to associate themselves with the country and claim this country their own.

With the influx of new migrants recently, I wonder how many of these really understand what Singapore is all about and how our forefathers had suffered to get Singapore to its standing. Many comes here thinking that this place offers an opportunity for quick money and after they have achieved their objectives, would return to their home land.

How many times have we heard of migrants here saying that as soon as they have earned enough, they would return to their birth place and build new houses, start a business, and so on and so forth...

Are there patriotism in these new migrants?? Will they fight for the country if they are being called into one? From 2006 to 2007, 200,000 new migrants has graced our shores. Out of these 200,000, how many will continue to stay on and call this place their home???
 

Hakka Tiow

Alfrescian
Loyal
I am sure that all will turn out for the better after the old man is no longer around. But not before a very uncertain period.
 
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zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
... I should think this attracting of migrant workers is not inherited, but engineered by the present elite to milk the nation and avail themselves the fruits of globalization whilst leaving citizens to shoulder the consequences ...

bro,

i subscribe to evolution and i supposed the pluses from the migrants must be tapped upon, whilst not causing much detrimental effects of the host's genome of course.

in the past, folks may be here by circumstances; now, folks could be here by choice. either way we look at it, there will be a constant influx of migrants, not just here in Singapore, it's just about the same anywhere in the world as long as the individual desires.

if the elite truly engineered the migrants to come, they merely made this place more attractive to them, nothing more. if the elites truly milked our Citizens and leaving the latter to bear the consequences, fret not, one reaps the fruits from the seeds one had sown when the conditions are right.

i agree with you that our peoples requires to be developed and the values of nationhood and national identity requires reinforcements, perhaps, even re-development.

i always bear in mind that in evolution, a gradual change is the crux, where the pluses of the newly evolved feature would be retained or enhanced over time, and the junk slowly making an incomplete exit, perhaps even retaining them as part of the genome for backup. until the aberration is removed, we can only live with it :eek:
 

lockeliberal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Scroobal

The influx of foreigners at all skill levels has to do more with the lack of policy imagination and a case study of how good policies can become bad but become so entrenched that it is very difficult to change because of a lack of political will and open debate.

1. Note bringing in foreign workers is in of itself nothing new. They have largely been those doing jobs which do not compete with low wage Singaporeans, ie doing the stuff that no one else wants o do, the three d's of migrant labor, dirty dangerous and domestic.

2. I believe the policy has been liberalized slowly , firstly to o level holders and now lately to degree holders and these come directly into conflict with your average Singaporean. ( especially with a lowering of the min income paid to foreigners ) Do note that in tandem with the liberalization has come the rise of china and india in terms of not only exports of goods and services but manpower as well

3. Can't lower CPF, Economy must grow, Wages can't rise, Productivity growth dismal, Land costs cannot go down as everything is costed to the undeveloped cost of land of raffles square according to Ngiam. No new drivers for the economy in the short term, Philip can't find a replacement for Hard Drives. Micro Chips and Bio Tech to requiring a competitive advantage built around costs but they create less low and middle paying jobs than previous growth industries. Hence Service industries like finance a casino and formulae one come to the fore front. Basically as in the service and in the manufacturing industry, the civil servants have decided that labor costs are key to attracting foreign investment, hence honestly hiring more indian professionals chinese professionals making it all easier and liberal will help attract foreign investment. They have failed however to consider the value in the product or the service which. If a widget or a service costs 3000 a piece or an hour then the costs of hiring is really not an issue. if the widget only costs 300 a piece or an hour then labor costs becomes major.


4. The civil servants have taken the easy way out in terms of selling or creating value for business and Singapore, instead of selling or making better, they have tried to make labor cheaper with foreign imports because everything else will not budge




Locke
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Our country's high income seems to be neutralized by the high cost of living. Simple understanding of economics will tell you that importing large numbers of foreigners from poor countries will inevitably pulls down the wages of the local populace.
I like the way you have put the simple economic across.

Hopefully the people will realise that in 2011.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
When we erode the values of nationhood and identity with an overly-liberal FT policy, we risk marginalizing the only asset that we have -- our own flesh and blood citizens.
Excellent point. Very well put. Every MP should stick this on his desk as a reminder.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
I wonder how many of these really understand what Singapore is all about and how our forefathers had suffered to get Singapore to its standing. Many comes here thinking that this place offers an opportunity for quick money and after they have achieved their objectives, would return to their home land.

How many times have we heard of migrants here saying that as soon as they have earned enough, they would return to their birth place and build new houses, start a business, and so on and so forth...

Out of these 200,000, how many will continue to stay on and call this place their home???
Bro, great and valid questions that you have raised. I do recall that the HK special migration channel that was executed in the mid 90s was an unmitigated failure. No one knew about it until Ngiam revealed it after his retirement. Don't these policy failures surface to parliament? What was also interesting was that they made a small fortune buying and reselling the HDB flats before leaving.

I do recall a PRC nurse who worked here for close 10 years, migrated to Melbourne, bought a house and a camry with cash. All her Singapore savings.
 

starless

Alfrescian
Loyal
I dont think any of you guys here are willing to be waiters in coffee shops or be construction workers .... if not who, other than foreign workers from poor countries .... this people earn less than 1K a month .... if we piut a SG person there, maybe 2K minimum .... what do you think happen to property prices and coffee shop's kopi, will be even higher ....

Dont be so myopic and just look at certain things, look at the big picture, are you suffering until you have no meal on the table everyday .... most people have in fact more than enough to look for FLs and WLs quite often ....
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear Scroobal
The influx of foreigners at all skill levels has to do more with the lack of policy imagination and a case study of how good policies can become bad but become so entrenched that it is very difficult to change because of a lack of political will and open debate.
Locke

Bro, there are times I wished that you are with the Service as its hard to get independent views put across to them. Great point on the lack of policy imagination. This is borne out by the fact that "all" can enter, the better ones are given PR followed by citizenship. Its like tin mining, where huge pits and scarred landscapes remain while some towkay gets his ingots across to the West. There are 3 issues here
1) Do the better ones actually take up the offer and do we fill in the numbers with the less desirable when the takeup rate is dismal. Malaysians of tertiary qualifications have stopped converting to Singapore citizenship after the 80s. This is despite the fact that restrictions have been placed for Dept head positions in the civil service, stat boards and GLCs ( with exceptions)
2) With dual citizenship and ability to retake your citizenship of your original country becoming a trend such as OZ, US, India and China, they can still go back.
3) Open debate which you raised. As it is, we are probably the only country in the world that does not release citizenship numbers but resident numbers.

These policymakers must undergo a polygraph test annually on their contribution to Nationhood.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
I dont think any of you guys here are willing to be waiters in coffee shops or be construction workers .... if not who, other than foreign workers from poor countries .... this people earn less than 1K a month .... if we piut a SG person there, maybe 2K minimum .... what do you think happen to property prices and coffee shop's kopi, will be even higher ....

Dont be so myopic and just look at certain things, look at the big picture, are you suffering until you have no meal on the table everyday .... most people have in fact more than enough to look for FLs and WLs quite often ....
You need to travel more and read up more.
Australia as an example welcomes welders, waiters and cooks. They also welcome high end professionals and mid level executives. The key strategy is identification of gaps across the vocation spectrum, identification of gaps in cities and states and the involvement of recognised vocation custodians or professional regulatory bodies such as the Law society or Association of Engineers etc. The entry requirements also calls for authentication of documents and qualifications that are very rigid and robust.

As an example, its easier to migrate to Tasmania than New South Wales. Its easier to get in as a welder than as a medical doctor.

Canada which has loads of land and dire need of migrants is also selective. The same with the US, UK etc. And they all got ample space.

This is not about xenophobia. It about policymakers staying in good class bungalows and lets HDB estates go to the dumbs with streetwalkers and a whole raft of characters that have not be adequately vetted.

I keep mentioning welders because Oz had a shortage in the early 2000, they catapaulted to the top and placed on the fast belt. All they needed was ITE cert, few years under the belt, no criminal record etc.

Planning is done so that the National Psyche is not bruised. Their citizens are not treated in a secondary manner and their needs are met without turning society topsy turvy. The final result is that their national identity remains intact while they progress as a nation.

Get the picture.
 

KKC007

Alfrescian
Loyal
>>>Planning is done so that the National Psyche is not bruised. Their citizens are not treated in a secondary manner and their needs are met without turning society topsy turvy. The final result is that their national identity remains intact while they progress as a nation.<<<

This is where PAP failed miserably.

On the other hand, people talk about PRs not staying. Question would be, do they feel welcome in the first place? Moving a family to another country is a big pain. Was it a push factor or a pull factor?
 
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