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What do you think of Japan's militarization plans?

Sideswipe

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Why not? Every country should be given the chance to maximize his/her potential to the fullest. I think even Iran should be allowed to develop her nuclear potential.

Disagree with some statements - not all war criminals were executed - Emperor Hitohito wasn't- bujt then he wasn't even tried. They have MacArthur to be thankful for that.

Cheers!


the Japanese should thank Chinese leader Chiang Kai Shek too. but the Japanese were too proud to thank the Chinese for this goodwill gesture. so the Japanese chose to thank General MacArthur for everything.

according to Japanese ww2 diplomat Imai Takeo. he believed that prior to Potsdam Conference. the Chinese stance on retaining the Japanese monarchy was important in influencing the rest of allied powers decision to abolish or retain the Japanese monarchy. if the monarchy was abolished, Emperor Hitohito could be tried for war crimes. regarding this issue. the American were divided. the British were indifferent. the Russian wanted to abolish the monarchy. only the Chinese preferred Japan to retain its monarchy system.
 

Sideswipe

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
come on, the fact of history is things already happened and u don't assume! what happened already proof jap got the intention and did it.

if u want to assume, i can too assume they will not delay even without 77 event. there will be never ending possibilities u twit! why dont u assume u will kena 5mil toto friday. go, fuck ur boss and quit now.


you never directly answer my earlier question. my logic is cause and effect, not just pure assumption.

your pov is quite unique. i discussed 7/7 with some PRC people online. they insisted that the CCP never staged it. they didn't use your reasoning - it did not matter whether the CCP did it or not, the Japanese would still invade China later.
 

Liquigas

Alfrescian
Loyal
...... actually, the Japanese and the Chinese Communist were friends during the war. both sides reached a silent consensus or tacit understanding not to attack each other during wartime. at times. they would collude to pincer attack the Nationalist troops. there were irrefutable evidences of the Japanese-CCP collusion. this story should be made into TV drama. it is definitely more exciting and suspenseful. and the story was real.

On the eve of completing the Long March, Mao wrote a famous poem. Here are a few lines:
High is the sky and clear the clouds...
On the crest of Liupan our banners waft in the west wind
Today we hold in our hands the long rope to bind the dragon
When shall we bind fast the grey dragon?


By the 'grey dragon' Mao meant the invading Japanese forces. 'Fight the Japanese' was the slogan of the Red Army. But to win against the superior enemy forces they know they have to team up with the KMT forces ...
 

songsongpunggol

Alfrescian
Loyal
looking at what japan is doing with diaoyu islands, the country is asking to be nuked. they have forgotten what they did to the chinese during WW2.

but the chinese hasn't forgotten!! it is still very fresh in their minds!

AzKcQ.jpg
 
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longbow

Alfrescian
Loyal
With a rapidly shrinking population, high government debt and threats against Japanese industrial dominance (Sony, Sharp, Panasonic all under siege) it is pointless for Japs to go into military race. Furthermore it is hard to match againts China with a pop 12 times the size.

Then they are faced with hostilities from other regional powers like Korea.

The countries that really matter is China and US. Both need each other to solve problems, And one cannot be without the other.
 
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songsongpunggol

Alfrescian
Loyal
the entire country is sitting on the edge of the major earthquake fault.

any nuclear detonations in that area will trigger massive earthquakes which will make the country habis.

that is a point of no return for that country.
 
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Jah_rastafar_I

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
To: Jah_rastafar_I

I'll sum up my arguments with you, cause it's obvious you are an Ah Tiong bootlicker, and I have no wish to associate with you, or your racist Chinese kind.

1) You claim that US is historically the aggressor. With the exception of the middle east, it is not true.
2) You claim that the US are not saints, and if you can read I never said they are. All I said is that the US is the lesser of two evils.
3) I claim that China is racist and xenophobic, supported by the fact that they have a racially uniform composition, a strong culture and an totalitarian govt that does not respect others. This is different from other countries like Japan or Germany, who while may have very strong cultures, but are respectful and can live in peace with the rest. Case in point is China vs EU. If China is indeed so good, tell me why the US welcomed EU rise to economic power, but not China? It's because those China people have no respect for other civilizations and cannot be trusted. Not to mention their facist govt spreads all sort of anti-US propaganda to indoctrinate their people against America. In contrast, even today, anti-China rhetoric in US is non-existent compared to the anti-US sentiments in China. My personal experience and anecdotes aside, which you are always free to contest... if what I said is not true, why US treat China and EU differently har???
4) On concerning US vs China, you claim that US is the aggressor. I call your bullshit on this. US has only recently taken an interest in China, they were too busy bullying cave dwellers in Middle East remember? And why recently? Because of China's economic warfare and their rapid militarization to land grab disputed islands that is NOT theirs. In fact, the bully in Asia is China, by trying to grab those islands from Japan, Philippines, etc... Some SE Asia countries have also asked US for help. You think US would engage is aggressive posturing if China traded fairly and not have expansionist mindset? What China is trying to do now is very similar to what Germany did back in the first days of WW2 by annexing Polish territory.

I'm sorry, but your argument that US is an aggressive bully does not hold in context against China. Against the middle east countries I can at least concede on that ground, but against China? FUCK NO

So yes, back to the OP's topic, I support the rise of Japan's military. They are probably the only force that can effectively contain China, and givens US slow decline, we need a strong Japan to maintain the balance of power in Asia. If not, decades from now, all Asian countries will be vassal states of China, and Sinkapore will be just another Nth province of China.

Correcting your misinformation means i am an ah tiong bootlicker? You must be a US ass kisser and here's the thing. You don't mean anything to them at all. You're not an american citizen or from europe you're nothing to them. This is despite the fact that the US advertises itself as the champion of freedom and etc etc all that BS.

1: You are wrong here. The US intelligence agencies like the CIA is well known for sabotaging the govts of other countries. It has managed to destablize latin american countries so that none of them are of any threat to the US. In any case you yourself admitted it's the aggressor in the middle east. That alone is enough cause to show that the US Is aggressively attacking other countries. Look at the way you write with the exception of the middle east like somehow excusing the US for attacking the middle eastern countries. Were china to attack any middle eastern country just 1 you would be blasting china to hell. Honestly just from pt 1 alone it shows how bias you are. With the exception of the middle east indeed. :rolleyes: Oh yes the US needs to attack every country in every region before you will admit it has aggressive policies.


2. This is BS. The fact of the matter is both countries have their faults. No country is the lesser of the other. Mind you china has not reach super power status and have the reach the US has. The day china has that can this be judged in a more objective manner.

3. China has a uniform racial composition cos it is china. :rolleyes: Mind you the EU is opening it's doors to immigrants from all over the world and creating problems there but let's leave that aside. China has foreigners like africans and people the world over. There's nothing wrong in having a uniform racial composition. Korea has many koreans, japan japanese, thailand thais and russia russians. You don't have a right to talk shit about racial composition and judge a country as being racist due to that factor. Remember your last post to me where you said the diversity in china doesn't matter cos the minorities in china all look chinese and therefore that isn't true racial diversity and you wrote it in a very vague manner cos you wanted to hide how ridiculous that sounds.

The US doesn't attack the EU cos the EU is an ally. The UK is the closest ally of the US for obvious reasons both are anglo speaking countries not because the EU is more morally upright you dumbass. Your reasonings are really retarded.


4. You see how dumb your reasoning is here. Ok the US is busy bullying the cave dwellers in the middle east as you put it now isn't that aggresive action? Suffice to say the US is actually very aggressive in putting in place policies that benefits only it and its allies. What you are saying is that were it not for the middle east that it's caught up in the US would have more resources to concentrate on china. Look at it from this angle. Suppose i say were it not for the middle east china would have concentrated more on the US this alone shows how aggressive china is but somehow cos it's the US perfectly fine for them to be aggressive to the middle east. Btw don't come and discuss issues like the islands to me. ok the islands don't belong to china so do they belong to either japan or the philippines? Mind you each country wants those islands for themselves. If china was doing what germany did during ww2 lands belonging to neighbouring countries would have been attacked which were not. Btw china did not even actively attack and occupy the islands. They only protested it that's it how is that comparable to germany in ww2?

You are definitely wrong on all counts just admit your biasness and that's fine.

Look at this sentence here. I'm sorry, but your argument that US is an aggressive bully does not hold in context against China. Against the middle east countries I can at least concede on that ground, but against China? FUCK NO

US is well known for being an aggressive bully towards other nations but other nations don't have the right to take offence first cos a good offense is actually the best form of defense. That's your reasoning which shows what a US dog you are. Also china has not actually made any offense against the US only increased it's defense against a big bully.

I see the country that caused so much chaos to so many asian countries during ww2 should be allowed to rise again cos as you know it's probably better to be being a jap vassal state and mind you when china actually makes another country a chinese vassal state then you come in to say other countries become vassal states of china. As of now not even 1 country is a vassal state of china and you can create this imaginary scenerio. :rolleyes: Then again from the look of things you would even be a slave of any other country just as long as you aren't the slave of china sounds really stupid to me.
 

GOD IS MY DOG

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
if war leh...........China is almost surrounded..........


Japan, Sth Korea and Taiwan to the East.............

Vietnam to Southeast...........

India to Southwest............

Tibet and Xinjiang rebel..........
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
if war leh...........China is almost surrounded..........


Japan, Sth Korea and Taiwan to the East.............

Vietnam to Southeast...........

India to Southwest............

Tibet and Xinjiang rebel..........

Now you know why china and North Korea are good friend ? :wink:
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
looking at what japan is doing with diaoyu islands, the country is asking to be nuked. they have forgotten what they did to the chinese during WW2.

but the chinese hasn't forgotten!! it is still very fresh in their minds!

AzKcQ.jpg

Of course the ah tiong never forget , if forget then how to use it as bargaining chip when negotiating with the Japanese :wink:
 

moolightaffairs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
first and foremost

anyone who defend the japanese wrong doings. female family members, mother, sisters, wives, girl friends etc deserve to be brutally gang rape and killed. your baby deserve to thrown in air and plunge into the samurai sword waiting below. your whole family deserve to be buried alive. then u come and tell me they are the victims or they are not the worst.

you never directly answer my earlier question. my logic is cause and effect, not just pure assumption.

your pov is quite unique. i discussed 7/7 with some PRC people online. they insisted that the CCP never staged it. they didn't use your reasoning - it did not matter whether the CCP did it or not, the Japanese would still invade China later.

alamak, wat pov unique? how did u study history? history is the study of past events. what the fuck directly answer your question? what cause and effect?

u are telling me some ccp were at fault because they purposely provoked jap ended in this invasion in the 77event. this is the cause for jap invasion? will the jap invade China without 77 event? we don't study history assuming things. 77 happened and jap invaded China. when 77 happened, jap already at machurian state. what cause and effect u talking about some ccp provoke the jap to invade? dont shift the focus or blur the point. jap is ambitious and they invaded China, that is the cause and effect. not some unofficial leads that ccp members purposely provoked the war that lead to jap invasion.

again, dont shift the focus or blur the point!
 
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Sideswipe

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
first and foremost

alamak, wat pov unique? how did u study history? history is the study of past events. what the fuck directly answer your question? what cause and effect?

u are telling me some ccp were at fault because they purposely provoked jap ended in this invasion in the 77event. this is the cause for jap invasion? will the jap invade China without 77 event? we don't study history assuming things. 77 happened and jap invaded China. when 77 happened, jap already at machurian state. what cause and effect u talking about some ccp provoke the jap to invade? dont shift the focus or blur the point. jap is ambitious and they invaded China, that is the cause and effect. not some unofficial leads that ccp members purposely provoked the war that lead to jap invasion.

again, dont shift the focus or blur the point!


things will develop, change or happen depending on circumstances. the cause of the China-Japan war should be considered against an all-inclusive background.

back then, there were two forces in Japan who advocated contrasting China policies. one group advocated a full-scale invasion of China. the other group perceived Soviet Russian as Japan’s natural enemy. they wanted to form a military alliance with China to jointly defend against the Russian. they were against the long-term invasion of China plan. therefore the Japanese invasion of China was certainly not a definite.

throughout the 1930s, the CCP, Comintern and the Japanese Communist Party in collaboration peformed sabotage operations against the Japanese interests in China. the result of those actions eventually sown the seeds of the 2nd Sino-Japanese war. this part of history was very complicated and different to understand. actually, i don’t understand it fully but this is certainly true.

enemies or friends, it will flip anytime. nothing is definite in international politics. in 1937, the scenario of a US-Japan war was simply not possible to the American. in 1938, Chinese general Li Zongren told US general Stilwell that there will be a world war and US will enter the side of China to fight against Japan. Stilwell laughed at Li’s words. in 1942, the two generals met again. Stiwell praised Li for his brilliant foresight.
 

moolightaffairs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
first and foremost

anyone who defend the japanese wrong doings. female family members, mother, sisters, wives, girl friends etc deserve to be brutally gang rape and killed. your baby deserve to thrown in air and plunge into the samurai sword waiting below. your whole family deserve to be buried alive. then u come and tell me they are the victims or they are not the worst.



things will develop, change or happen depending on circumstances. the cause of the China-Japan war should be considered against an all-inclusive background.

back then, there were two forces in Japan who advocated contrasting China policies. one group advocated a full-scale invasion of China. the other group perceived Soviet Russian as Japan’s natural enemy. they wanted to form a military alliance with China to jointly defend against the Russian. they were against the long-term invasion of China plan. therefore the Japanese invasion of China was certainly not a definite.

throughout the 1930s, the CCP, Comintern and the Japanese Communist Party in collaboration peformed sabotage operations against the Japanese interests in China. the result of those actions eventually sown the seeds of the 2nd Sino-Japanese war. this part of history was very complicated and different to understand. actually, i don’t understand it fully but this is certainly true.

enemies or friends, it will flip anytime. nothing is definite in international politics. in 1937, the scenario of a US-Japan war was simply not possible to the American. in 1938, Chinese general Li Zongren told US general Stilwell that there will be a world war and US will enter the side of China to fight against Japan. Stilwell laughed at Li’s words. in 1942, the two generals met again. Stiwell praised Li for his brilliant foresight.

whatever u said also can't change the fact that japan invaded China and killed a lot of Chinese. that is history and the fact i am talking about. no need to twist and turn to assume this assume that.
 
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Vigilante

Alfrescian
Loyal
thanks, getting banned is never a prob man. the problem is i am single out and victimised because i banned sam leong pet kinana for his stupidity. well, i stand tall as a man. die as a man too. look at my point! 100! wow! lol! sam leong really affected when u hit his soft spot, kinana. so be careful who u give infractions and deduct the rep pts.
you are my hero! :p
 

maozedong

Alfrescian
Loyal
Your view that the Lugouqiao was staged by the CCP is very interesting, but do you have anything to back it up?

I found this in wikipedia:

"One far-right Japanese historian has alleged that the incident was staged by the Chinese Communist Party, who hoped that the incident would lead to a war of attrition between the Japanese army and the Kuomintang (Guomingdang)".

If this theory was started by the Japanese far-right, I wouldn't put too much weight on it because the Japanese far-right would definitely want to put the blame of starting the Sino-Japan war on the Chinese.

On your point that there was another faction in Japan which wanted to attack Russia instead of Chinese, the likelihood of this faction prevailing was very slim because
China was much weaker than Russia (which was no longer the same Russia defeated by Japan before WWI). Schooled in Sun Tzu Art of War, the Japanese generals and war cabinet would surely know it was foolish to attack the stronger enemy first;
The Japanese ambition at that time was to build to an Asian empire. Long before the war, Japanese children had already been taught that China was their enemy - so it seems like they had been preparing for the war and that means the anti-China faction was the dominant faction.

So if we agree that the anti-China faction was the dominant faction in Japan, there was no real need for CCP to stage Lugouqiao, because the Japan was already going to attack China. The Japanese themselves could easily create the false flag to start the war.

Even if you are right that Japan didn't want to attack China at first, it would be a very risky move for the CCP to stage Lugouqiao to induce Japan to invade China because they might end up having to fight the Japs alone (if the Japs defeated the KMT). Both KMT and CCP knew that Japan was a formidable enemy. Would the CCP take such a risk? Even though Mao was a great strategist, you are attributing superhuman foresight to him if you think he could plan all these. Mao, like all the other leaders at the time, were shaped by the events as much as they shaped the events. That is, they couldn't plan everything. To plan to start a Japanese invasion, then attack the KMT while it was fighting the Japs, and then fight whoever the victor was to take over China was just impossible because so many things could go wrong.

Your view that the CCP and Japanese Communists operations against Japanese interests in China sowed the seeds of the Sino-Japanese war in China also sounds like something from the Japanese far right. Do you mean so say that the Japanese could foresee that the CCP would take over China one day and therefore Communism was a serious threat to Japan and that's why they started the Sino-Japanese war? Otherwise why would the Communist operations against Japanese interests in China sow the seeds of the Sino-Japan war?

Of course, none of us can be absolutely sure what really happened, except the protagonists themselves.
But your Japanese ultra-right views are very improbable.

What we know are the facts, and they are: Japan attacked China first, both the CCP and KMT fought the Japanese invaders (even if the KMT fought more), and the Japanese committed a lot of atrocities in China and countries in S.E.A.

You are right there are no permanent friends or enemies in international affairs, only permanent self interests. But the enmity between China and Japan will last for quite a long time, perhaps until one side is utterly defeated and Diaoyu Island issue resolved.

Here's another argument why the 7/7 Lugouqiao incident was part of a long term plan to invade China:
"In appearance, the incident was no different from previous military skirmishes aroused by the Japanese military's provocative actions. But records show that on the second day of the incident, Japan decided to move its troops from occupied northeast China to Peiping and just four days later, Japanese Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe (1891-1945) moved to increase Japan's military presence in north China.
"Without long-time preparation, it would have been impossible for a country to launch such a massive war over such a short period of time," ...
"


things will develop, change or happen depending on circumstances. the cause of the China-Japan war should be considered against an all-inclusive background.

back then, there were two forces in Japan who advocated contrasting China policies. one group advocated a full-scale invasion of China. the other group perceived Soviet Russian as Japan’s natural enemy. they wanted to form a military alliance with China to jointly defend against the Russian. they were against the long-term invasion of China plan. therefore the Japanese invasion of China was certainly not a definite.

throughout the 1930s, the CCP, Comintern and the Japanese Communist Party in collaboration peformed sabotage operations against the Japanese interests in China. the result of those actions eventually sown the seeds of the 2nd Sino-Japanese war. this part of history was very complicated and different to understand. actually, i don’t understand it fully but this is certainly true.

enemies or friends, it will flip anytime. nothing is definite in international politics. in 1937, the scenario of a US-Japan war was simply not possible to the American. in 1938, Chinese general Li Zongren told US general Stilwell that there will be a world war and US will enter the side of China to fight against Japan. Stilwell laughed at Li’s words. in 1942, the two generals met again. Stiwell praised Li for his brilliant foresight.
 
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Sideswipe

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
On your point that there was another faction in Japan which wanted to attack Russia instead of Chinese, the likelihood of this faction prevailing was very slim because

So if we agree that the anti-China faction was the dominant faction in Japan, there was no real need for CCP to stage Lugouqiao, because the Japan was already going to attack China. The Japanese themselves could easily create the false flag to start the war.


the Japanese anti-China faction was the dominant faction. the Japanese had a long-term plan of invading China. but decisions are shaped by events. events will shape decisions.

if China became stronger, Japan will surely reconsider the wisdom of the invasion. from 1927-1937, China was developing and modernizing very fast. a great deal had been done toward improving the economy, military and living conditions. the Japanese were worried about it. Dr.Arthur.N.Young, WW2 finacial advisor to ROC said that the Japanese had reached the conclusion in 1937 that it was now or never.

things will develop, change or happen depending on circumstances. therefore the cause of the China-Japan war should be considered against an all-inclusive background.


So if we agree that the anti-China faction was the dominant faction in Japan, there was no real need for CCP to stage Lugouqiao, because the Japan was already going to attack China. The Japanese themselves could easily create the false flag to start the war.

Even if you are right that Japan didn't want to attack China at first, it would be a very risky move for the CCP to stage Lugouqiao to induce Japan to invade China because they might end up having to fight the Japs alone (if the Japs defeated the KMT). Both KMT and CCP knew that Japan was a formidable enemy. Would the CCP take such a risk? Even though Mao was a great strategist, you are attributing superhuman foresight to him if you think he could plan all these. Mao, like all the other leaders at the time, were shaped by the events as much as they shaped the events. That is, they couldn't plan everything. To plan to start a Japanese invasion, then attack the KMT while it was fighting the Japs, and then fight whoever the victor was to take over China was just impossible because so many things could go wrong.

most Chinese historians will agree that 7/7 were started by Japanese junior officers of Major rank and below. it was not planned by the Japanese Tianjin garrison. Nanking and Tokyo simply went along with the flow of the situation and declared war on each other.

according to KMT general Li Zongren. at the onset of 7/8. the Japanese moved its troops too slowly to the conflict area. the Japanese redeployed troops from northeast China, Manchuria and Korea bit by bit. Japanese had 20 standing Shidans ( Army Division ) in Japan at 1937. they could mobilize to 50 Shidans. they could quickly deploy 30 Shidans to China from two directions: North and South simultaneously. but the Japanese didn’t do it. this suggested that the Japanese were not that prepared for war. the Japanese rushed the war a little.

the CCP never planned for that much. it could be a local war, a region war or a short war. they simply wanted to embroil the Kuomintang into a war with the Japanese. to divert the KMT focus from the Communist to the Japanese.
it would be foolish for the CCP to sit idle and waited for annihilation. it would only be a matter of time before Chiang Kai Shek relaunched military operations toward Yan’an. the CCP took its risks and benefited greatly from the war. there was also the Soviet factor in it. the Japanese and the Russian reached a secret consensus that the Japanese troops would not invade Yan’an. the CCP would later establish friendly contacts with the Japanese Nanking HQ on its own without the Russian knowledge.


Your view that the CCP and Japanese Communists operations against Japanese interests in China sowed the seeds of the Sino-Japanese war in China also sounds like something from the Japanese far right. Do you mean so say that the Japanese could foresee that the CCP would take over China one day and therefore Communism was a serious threat to Japan and that's why they started the Sino-Japanese war? Otherwise why would the Communist operations against Japanese interests in China sow the seeds of the Sino-Japan war?

Of course, none of us can be absolutely sure what really happened, except the protagonists themselves.
But your Japanese ultra-right views are very improbable.

during the late 1920s to 1937, Li Zongren regularly entertained Japanese guests from the military, government, business and educational groups. according to Li. there was one group of Japanese ( one was Takaji Wachi ) who were very anti-Russian. against the Japanese long term invasion plans of China. they had this opinion that Russia would eventually invade Japan one day. Manchuria and Inner Mongolia would be the base to launch an attack. if the Chinese couldn’t defend its own provinces from the Russians. the Japanese had to take over these lands to make it a buffer against Soviet aggressions. Li described these point of view as totally absurd.

my point is there were different Japanese opinions with regards to the Japanese long term invasion plans of China.

the CCP sabotage operations of Japanese business interest and killing of Japanese citizens would sow the seeds of the war. to explain it and 7/7 will be too long.

the CCP sabotage operations in mostly Manchuria and North China from 1931-1937 were very complicated and different to understand. i mentioned earlier. i don't really understand it fully. to put it simply and short. the results of those actions weakened the position of the Japanese moderates in the government and military who preferred peace with China. the influential Business group ( the large corporations ) who had massive interest in China threw their support behind the War faction. the War faction eventually won control of the government and directed the expansionist plans toward China.

regarding 7/7. there were no direct evidences. but there were circumstantial and corroborating evidences that pointed to a CCP conspiracy in 7/7. it was a long story too. maybe i will write a bit on it later.


What we know are the facts, and they are: Japan attacked China first, both the CCP and KMT fought the Japanese invaders (even if the KMT fought more), and the Japanese committed a lot of atrocities in China and countries in S.E.A.

the Chinese Communist avaded the Japanese invaders for close to 8 years and rarely faught a decent battle. fact is stranger than faction. actually. the Japanese and the CCP troops lived side by side in peace. a Chinese newpaper reported, in 1941, Mao Zedong went to meet Okamura Yasuji in Nanking. ( i doubt it ) in 1943, Pan Hannian as a representative of Mao went to meet Wang Jingwei in Nanking. in June 1945, Yan’an sent New 4th Army staff officer Yang Fan to Nanking to discuss a CCP-Japanese alliance against the Chinese Nationalists.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_af5c8fd601015zv6.html

Guo Rugui wrote this book - the history of the Sino-Japanese war ( 中国抗日战争正面战场作战记 ). the sources were from the Chinese Historical Archives at Nanjing today. stolen KMT archives. perhaps, Guo toward the end of his life finally found back his conscience and wrote this book to honor the bravery of the millions of Kuomintang soldiers and generals. Guo implied that the Nationalist fought 95% of the battles during the war. maybe, that was Guo way of saying sorry to his former KMT comrades who he betrayed and sent them to their death during the civil war 1945-1949.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1610510.htm
 

winners

Alfrescian
Loyal
I'm just waiting for a war to break out in North East Asia. China is playing with fire and provocation with the Senkaku issue.
 
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maozedong

Alfrescian
Loyal
so your opinion is it really doesn't matter if the CCP provoked 7/7 or not, the Japanese would still invade China. it doesn't matter if 7/7 placed the Chinese Nationalist government in a very bad position to fight the Japanese. should the war be delayed for another 1-2 years, the Chinese Army could certainly fight the Japanese more effectively. this assumption is pointless. ??

the CCP were also indirectly responsible for 9/18 incident.


Yes, your assumption is useless. You are contradicting yourself. In another post, you said the Japanese had concluded in 1937 that it was now or never to start a war against China.

Now, please tell us why you think that the CCP was indirectly responsible for 9/18. Please don't not say that it was because of the CCP sabotage operations against Japanese business interests in Manchuria - weakening the moderates in Japan who were not anti-China. We all know that the far right had controlled Japanese politics since the Meiji Era and that they had planned to take China. Also, since the signing of the Unfair Treaty which seceded may Chinese territories to Japan, there had been Chinese operations against Japanese in China (whether by the CCP or others) because most of the Chinese people were against the Japanese occupying their territories. Even if the CCP was the main saboteur, it was just carrying out the will of the people.

Going by your logic, Hitler's parents were indirectly responsible for World War 2 because according to you, one thing leads to another.
 
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maozedong

Alfrescian
Loyal
the Japanese anti-China faction was the dominant faction. the Japanese had a long-term plan of invading China. but decisions are shaped by events. events will shape decisions.

if China became stronger, Japan will surely reconsider the wisdom of the invasion. from 1927-1937, China was developing and modernizing very fast. a great deal had been done toward improving the economy, military and living conditions. the Japanese were worried about it. Dr.Arthur.N.Young, WW2 finacial advisor to ROC said that the Japanese had reached the conclusion in 1937 that it was now or never.

things will develop, change or happen depending on circumstances. therefore the cause of the China-Japan war should be considered against an all-inclusive background.

Since you agree that the anti-China faction was the dominant faction and Japan had been planning to invade China for a long time, Japan would invade China with or without Lugouqiao 7/7 incident. And you also said that the Japanese had concluded in 1937 that it was now or never. So if it wasn't 7/7, it would be close to that date.

most Chinese historians will agree that 7/7 were started by Japanese junior officers of Major rank and below. it was not planned by the Japanese Tianjin garrison. Nanking and Tokyo simply went along with the flow of the situation and declared war on each other.

according to KMT general Li Zongren. at the onset of 7/8. the Japanese moved its troops too slowly to the conflict area. the Japanese redeployed troops from northeast China, Manchuria and Korea bit by bit. Japanese had 20 standing Shidans ( Army Division ) in Japan at 1937. they could mobilize to 50 Shidans. they could quickly deploy 30 Shidans to China from two directions: North and South simultaneously. but the Japanese didn’t do it. this suggested that the Japanese were not that prepared for war. the Japanese rushed the war a little.

the CCP never planned for that much. it could be a local war, a region war or a short war. they simply wanted to embroil the Kuomintang into a war with the Japanese. to divert the KMT focus from the Communist to the Japanese.
it would be foolish for the CCP to sit idle and waited for annihilation. it would only be a matter of time before Chiang Kai Shek relaunched military operations toward Yan’an. the CCP took its risks and benefited greatly from the war. there was also the Soviet factor in it. the Japanese and the Russian reached a secret consensus that the Japanese troops would not invade Yan’an. the CCP would later establish friendly contacts with the Japanese Nanking HQ on its own without the Russian knowledge.

You said the CCP "did not plan for that much" and they intended 7/7 to be a local war to embroil the KMT in fighting with the Japs. Meaning they didn't think it would escalate to the full blown war. That's quite a big risk to take. Also, if the KMT General had acceded to the Japs request to let some Jap troops to search the missing soldier, the "local" war might have been averted and the CCP ploy would come to naught.

during the late 1920s to 1937, Li Zongren regularly entertained Japanese guests from the military, government, business and educational groups. according to Li. there was one group of Japanese ( one was Takaji Wachi ) who were very anti-Russian. against the Japanese long term invasion plans of China. they had this opinion that Russia would eventually invade Japan one day. Manchuria and Inner Mongolia would be the base to launch an attack. if the Chinese couldn’t defend its own provinces from the Russians. the Japanese had to take over these lands to make it a buffer against Soviet aggressions. Li described these point of view as totally absurd.

my point is there were different Japanese opinions with regards to the Japanese long term invasion plans of China.

the CCP sabotage operations of Japanese business interest and killing of Japanese citizens would sow the seeds of the war. to explain it and 7/7 will be too long.

the CCP sabotage operations in mostly Manchuria and North China from 1931-1937 were very complicated and different to understand. i mentioned earlier. i don't really understand it fully. to put it simply and short. the results of those actions weakened the position of the Japanese moderates in the government and military who preferred peace with China. the influential Business group ( the large corporations ) who had massive interest in China threw their support behind the War faction. the War faction eventually won control of the government and directed the expansionist plans toward China.

regarding 7/7. there were no direct evidences. but there were circumstantial and corroborating evidences that pointed to a CCP conspiracy in 7/7. it was a long story too. maybe i will write a bit on it later.




the Chinese Communist avaded the Japanese invaders for close to 8 years and rarely faught a decent battle. fact is stranger than faction. actually. the Japanese and the CCP troops lived side by side in peace. a Chinese newpaper reported, in 1941, Mao Zedong went to meet Okamura Yasuji in Nanking. ( i doubt it ) in 1943, Pan Hannian as a representative of Mao went to meet Wang Jingwei in Nanking. in June 1945, Yan’an sent New 4th Army staff officer Yang Fan to Nanking to discuss a CCP-Japanese alliance against the Chinese Nationalists.

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_af5c8fd601015zv6.html

Guo Rugui wrote this book - the history of the Sino-Japanese war ( 中国抗日战争正面战场作战记 ). the sources were from the Chinese Historical Archives at Nanjing today. stolen KMT archives. perhaps, Guo toward the end of his life finally found back his conscience and wrote this book to honor the bravery of the millions of Kuomintang soldiers and generals. Guo implied that the Nationalist fought 95% of the battles during the war. maybe, that was Guo way of saying sorry to his former KMT comrades who he betrayed and sent them to their death during the civil war 1945-1949.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/1610510.htm

As stated earlier, I am also of the view that the KMT fought the Japanese more. Taiwan Ma Ying Jiu recently asked China to recognize the truth that it was the KMT who fought the Japs. But we have to understand that the KMT and CCP were also at war with each other at that time, and that the KMT was in power and had the upper hand. If the CCP attacked the Japs, they would be exposing themselves to the KMT. Also, according to Sun Tzu Art of War, if your army is slightly less powerful than your enemy, you wait and watch but do not attack (your "living side by side in peace with the Japanese").

But it is a fact that the CCP did fight the Japanese. And they could only openly do that after forcing the KMT into a truce via the Xian incident.

You are wise to doubt the report in the Chinese newspaper that Mao went to Beijing to meet the Japanese general - because the newspaper was probably a KMT propaganda. It is not impossible that there were some communication between the CCP and Japanese and even talk on corporation against the KMT. But it could all be a ploy: the CCP trying to get more information about the Japanese and KMT. Surely, the CCP knew that enmity the Chinese people had for the Japanese with the unfair treaty still fresh in the minds. The CCP would also know that they would have an even tougher time getting rid of the Japanese troops after the defeat of KMT. It's not necessary to read too much into these communication between the CCP and Japanese. While it is not inconceivable that out of desperation for its own survival, the CCP could really reach out to the Japanese, we need at least some circumstantial evidence before making such speculation.

Also, before one accuses the CCP of being a traitor, let's remember that KMT Chiang Kai Shek had considered the CCP a greater threat than the Japanese (which he repeatedly made concessions to before the war). It is sad but true that if the KMT and CCP had united to fight the Japanese earlier, the Japanese probably wouldn't have been able to commit all those atrocities against the Chinese people. The blame for this should be shared between the KMT and CCP. I think a less power-hungry KMT leader like Sun Yat Sen might've made peace with the CCP to fight the Japanese.

Li ZongRen was right to reject the Japanese suggestion of grabbing Chinese land to be used as buffer against the Russians as absurd. Any fool would know that the Japs were trying to grab a piece of China here.

Now, your point about "the CCP operations against Japanese interests and killing of Japanese mainly in Manchuria sowing the seeds of the war by weakening the moderates in Japan" is just an inconsequential "IF". First, since the Unequal Treaty which seceded many Chinese territories to Japan, there had been operations against Japanese interests in China (whether by CCP or others) because many Chinese were against the Japanese occupation of their territories. Even if the CCP was the main saboteur of Japanese interests, it was just carrying out the will of the Chinese people - while the KMT at there time was making a lot of concessions to the Japanese. Second, since the Meiji era, the Japanese far right had taken over Japanese politics and had planned to take over China. Sure, as you said, "Japanese invasion of China was certainly not a definite". Of course, nothing is cast is stone - but the plan was there all along, and the moderates didn't really have a chance.


Why you are so fond of saying things like "Japanese invasion of China was certainly not a definite.", "things will develop, change or happen depending on circumstances. the cause of the China-Japan war should be considered against an all-inclusive background. " and that there are different opinions in Japan on attacking China ?

Of course, there would always be some dissent, just like there were some Germans who didn't like what Hitler was doing. Of course, things could change and the Japan might not have attacked China. There is always a good and bad side in every man, just like in every country.

A rapist preparing to rape a woman could have a side in him telling him that it was wrong to rape. But his bad side prevailed and he proceeded to rape her. And then you come out to tell the world that the rape wouldn't have happened if the rapist had listened to his conscience. Worst, you even suggest that the victim might be "indirectly responsible" because she did some things in the past which "sowed the seeds" of the rape.
 
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maozedong

Alfrescian
Loyal
To the protests of China, Australia let the USA station a few thousand troops in a permanent base in Australia a couple of years ago, as part of Obama's Asia Pivot (evidently a plan to contain and encircle China). Sure things may change in the future, but don't forget the whites down under can be quite racist.


Nobody is talking about GDP per capita here and quality of living. The US will still lead the world here but they will cede their crown as the dominant economic nation. You are right, the Anglo-Saxon world will still be aligned to the USA for some time to come but except for the UK, the rest are small economies. I have some doubt about Australia though as they are very dependent on China's need for their commodities. Germany I think is very likely. They are already having independent thinking. France is the country that is being played as a pawn because of its weakness.
 
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