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Tan Kin Lian and disgraced lawyer Leonard Loo

kingrant

Alfrescian
Loyal
TKL would clearly have done better had he blogged that there were a number of lawyers present and he would not name who, but could ask people involved to see them if they wished, and he does not know them and would not make any specifc recommendations.

But no. TKL couldnt resist the temptation to drop Loo's name (as if to impress the public that Loo and he were acquainted) in his blog, and that is our beef.
 

kingrant

Alfrescian
Loyal
Seriously again, what has hindsight got to do with it? Unless as I have said, that knowing what Loo is now, TKL should be regretting he dropped his name in his blog.

To me, it has backfired on TKL. He has always been too quick to attach himself to big names until they proved to be bloopers. and then you come around and say we need to talk in the context of things. Sure!

Kingrant,

It takes more than two to clap louder, don't you agree? :smile:

I have said enough on this one. People like to talk about things on hindsight without really understanding the context and situation at hand there and then. So be it. But for me, on hindsight, people should pressure opposition parties more to get involved in this Minibond saga so that we don't even need Lawyer Loo at all.... yeah, on hindsight... sigh.

Goh Meng SEng
 
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Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Kingrant,

Are you serious? "Name Dropping" Loo? Sheesh! Nobody actually knows who he is and what is so worthy of dropping his name? TKL is more well known than him lah! You only drop names that are more famous than you lah!

Whether TKL regrets or not, I really don't know. But one thing for sure, he has made the best out of the situation back then. No regrets for me, if you ask me.

Goh Meng Seng




Seriously again, what has hindsight got to do with it? The only way is as I have said, that knowing what Loo is now, TKL should be regretting he dropped his name in his blog.

To me, it reflects on TKL. He has always been too quick to attach himself to big names until they proved to be bloopers. and then you come around and say we need to talk in the context of things. Sure!
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
BTW, that's hindsight you know... you are saying, on hindsight, he should have regretted by "dropping" Loo's name.. which really doesn't make any sense to me!

Goh Meng Seng
 

kingrant

Alfrescian
Loyal
TKL asked people to refer to him in his blog. Did you see that in the first place?

BTW, that's hindsight you know... you are saying, on hindsight, he should have regretted by "dropping" Loo's name.. which really doesn't make any sense to me!

Goh Meng Seng
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Kingrant,

I am asking you, who else, which lawyer, could he possibly ask them to refer to? As I have said, in the end, Loo was not the defacto appointed lawyer. There was another lawyer engaged, dude.

Goh Meng Seng


TKL asked people to refer to him in his blog. Did you see that in the first place?
 

kingrant

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dont matter. Loo's name was mentioned, no others, in TKL's blog. So the statement is true and valid - that TKL roped in Loo to help in the mini-bond saga case.

Never mind that there were others, or Loo was not the one in the end. These are red herrings which you are throwing around.

I am asking you, who else, which lawyer, could he possibly ask them to refer to? As I have said, in the end, Loo was not the defacto appointed lawyer. There was another lawyer engaged, dude.

Goh Meng Seng
 

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
Seb must be thinking, on hindsight he shouldn't allow this immature prick to be Sec Gen.

I have said enough on this one. People like to talk about things on hindsight without really understanding the context and situation at hand there and then. So be it.
 

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
So at the end of the day, GMS hides behind this mythical "other lawyer" whose (alleged) presence is supposed to indicate somehow ... just SOMEHOW ... that TKL was not at all to blame and he should not shoulder the burden of having mislead investors to engaging the legal services of a lemon lawyer.

It's amazing, isn't it? I only said TKL roped Leonard Loo in. These are the facts. The implication is also straightforward -- TKL should have done his background checks, and he shouldn't have placed a group of vulnerable investors in the hands of someone like Leonard Loo.

lockeliberal nailed it when he said minibond investors were screwed 3 times -- once by Lehman, once by Leonard, and then once by TKL who used them as political mileage.

And then somehow along the way, WP, LTK, YSL get ROPED INTO the discussion.

Absolutely amazing!
 

wikiphile

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
So at the end of the day, GMS hides behind this mythical "other lawyer" whose (alleged) presence is supposed to indicate somehow ... just SOMEHOW ... that TKL was not at all to blame and he should not shoulder the burden of having mislead investors to engaging the legal services of a lemon lawyer.

It's amazing, isn't it? I only said TKL roped Leonard Loo in. These are the facts. The implication is also straightforward -- TKL should have done his background checks, and he shouldn't have placed a group of vulnerable investors in the hands of someone like Leonard Loo.

lockeliberal nailed it when he said minibond investors were screwed 3 times -- once by Lehman, once by Leonard, and then once by TKL who used them as political mileage.

And then somehow along the way, WP, LTK, YSL get ROPED INTO the discussion.

Absolutely amazing!

You have not heard? There's a conspiracy theory going on saying that WP, LTK and YSL engineered the entire lehman crisis in Singapore. How else then did our most valued/vaunted analslist got into the fray?
 

elephanto

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Dear GMS,

Enough said, in your own mind, your logic flows so you get to be right.

No iota of objective reflection, you simply can't conceive all these while, something flawed about your innate thought process cause you to be unrepentent and recalcitrant. I believe now you are not stubborn, you genuinely don't get it hence everyone must be biased and your 'strategic savviness' as you unabashedly put it fence you in an ivory tower, where you fall back into a self righteous cloak that you are selfless, contention is not your style and you are the democracy advocate par excellence.

Far from it. Even if you agree to disagree -i.e. you and all your critics are all right in our own respective ways - the facts don't lie.

The fact that you are an aspiring leader with no followers and you never stick to your guns in real life. You join and leave parties, take up and relinquish positions of responsibility : damn you can't even bear with internal challenge, you just resigned with face intact and sounds-good reasons to the world for quitting NSP.

For all your criticism of Low, that man has commited belevers in him and in spite of living under the shadow of innuendos of foresaking JBJ, this man took it upon himself manfully to build up WP to its present stature.

Damn, if I were him, no 3 corner sacred cow avoidance i will adhere to! If you think you deserve to speak fornthe people, give 'em a choice and stop the oft used cowardly pretext that 3 corner fight favors PAP & all that bleeding heart puking notion that we must all unite in Opposition! A notion you GMS holdmto this day!

The facts speak for itself. I won't attempt to change your change your mind because your one track logic simply derive mirth from crafting your one track thought process.

Hindsight is supposed to help us learn the right lessons - not for you to use as a motherhood statement to imply it can turn out any way !

Your blind spot in the whole MK matter is
a. You wanna impose your reading of the prospects on other players - arrogance and folly
b. no guts to stand your ground, you forfeit standing in MK oh wow! In the name of avoiding 3-cornernfight -!and then get disenchanted, boo hoo WP arrogant don't play ball my way ! Boo hoo !

Learn from CSM's handling of questions in the ST interview. They ask him his personal take on YSL matter, he is so savvy : no names mentioned, no playing to interviewer's whim and fancy: he coolly used his own failure at not getting into med school to say, he just moved on - life sometimes didn't happen the way we want it to be.

That's political savvy for you GMS - instead of your morally repugnant self-righteous breast beating.

Yeah yeah fine, I got it 'upside down' yawn....
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Another great one from you, LOL!. You are on a roll.

You have not heard? There's a conspiracy theory going on saying that WP, LTK and YSL engineered the entire lehman crisis in Singapore. How else then did our most valued/vaunted analslist got into the fray?
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
I think now that our approach has been wrong. If someone can accompany me and help hold down GMS, I will bring along pair of pliers and pry open his mouth from around TKL's dick. It has been fastened so tight that no reason, no logic and no air can get in.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
The best post that I have seen in years. Lucid, fair and absolutely spot on.

Dear GMS,

Enough said, in your own mind, your logic flows so you get to be right.

No iota of objective reflection, you simply can't conceive all these while, something flawed about your innate thought process cause you to be unrepentent and recalcitrant. I believe now you are not stubborn, you genuinely don't get it hence everyone must be biased and your 'strategic savviness' as you unabashedly put it fence you in an ivory tower, where you fall back into a self righteous cloak that you are selfless, contention is not your style and you are the democracy advocate par excellence.


That's political savvy for you GMS - instead of your morally repugnant self-righteous breast beating.

Yeah yeah fine, I got it 'upside down' yawn....
 

tanwahp

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
If you feel that by saying the obvious truth (the inferior line up of WP candidates vs NSP's MK team) is a show of "pettiness", so be it. I have forgotten to say, I also have no apology to be saying the obvious truth.

Hazel Poa should prove her worth. As the NSP secretary-general, she appears only once every 3 months. Even the WP and SDP minions get their hands dirty for Singapore more than her. We don't measure quality and calibre by merely paper. PAP already beat everyone hands down. Their scholars are in truckloads but look what they have done to the country.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
It is true, enough said. You don't really understand it at all.

Any party, be it WP or NSP or RP, is just a vehicle, a means to an end. Many people like you get it all wrong. I love challenges but not some silly fights over nothing. To tell you the truth, even before I took over as SG, I don't really like to fight over it. When I was asked to take over the SG post after Law Sin Ling stepped down, I declined because I know my flying around won't justify such a post and there are people who are interested to be SG. So be it.

When I was asked again to take over the SG post when Ken stepped down, I was willing to consider taking it up. There were a couple of people interested. In the end, one of them decided to make the bid. I just told him, if he can get people to be his proposer and seconder, then go ahead, I would withdraw from contesting for that SG post. Of course, the rest is history. My mission is to challenge PAP's monopoly of power, not so much about getting SG post for glory or name. Frankly speaking, there are more hardwork and sweating to be SG. I am happy to play the supporting role with anyone as SG as I have done for Law and Ken. I guess you must get your objective right and straight.

Thus, when a new group of people came and think they could do better, I am more than happy to let them try. Seriously, my decision to resign includes many other considerations; apart from NSP's perspective, there are quite a number of reasons and considerations. I do not wish to deal with all of them, so be it.

You are just too quick and judgemental to proclaim that I am a leader without "followers", my friend. Do you really think I am that kind of man who will just pull off all my "followers" (I do not consider them as "followers" btw, just equals and comrades whom fight along side by side) and try to destroy the party when I leave? Nah. I have to persuade some people to stay on but it is their choice ultimately whether to leave or stay. Some have left, some have stayed. But we don't make a big hoohaa over it.

There isn't any ivory tower over my head, my friend. Politics is full of harsh realities. I do not wish to compare myself with Low but frankly speaking, all are not well my friend. You are looking at things from a very superficial level. Let's get it straight, out of the 18 candidates who have fought side by side in GE2006, how many of them have left? How many of them are still with the party playing active role? As I have said, I would consider those who have joined WP during its most difficult and weakest times, are people with good vision (no hindsight backside...etc) and a strong belief in the mission of keeping the democratic fire burning. But where are most of these people now? Put it another way, the real test of good following will only come when WP lost all its seats. How many of the present slate of people would still stay and fight? I have no doubt the veterans will soldier on but I really have doubts on those post 2006 recruits. This is no ivory tower but pure harsh realities in politics.

At this instance, only people with Superiority Complex will go into three corner fights. I am not saying that opposition die die must never have multi-corner fights but the time is not now. The time is not ripe. We have not garner the critical one third of the parliamentary seats yet and you want opposition parties to slaughter themselves? Multi-corner fight will most probably (statistically speaking, not full proof) benefit the incumbent... so unless the seat is held by WP or any other opposition party, it doesn't make sense to have three corner fights when PAP is the incumbent. Why? We do not have one third of the parliamentary seats yet. That again, you must have very clear objective in mind: at this moment, it is about one third of parliamentary seats, not about slaughtering each other in opposition parties.

I am not discrediting LTK in any sense. He has his strength but he also has his weakness. Sometimes, I would have to take alot of trouble to prove a point to him, just like the Marine Parade contest. As I have said, although I personally felt that Marine Parade is a good ground even discounting the TPL effect, but very few people believe in it due to the myth of GCT popularity. Even after we have decided to send the team to Marine Parade, some people within NSP still insisted that Marine Parade would perform the WORST among all NSP contested area. They even wanted to bet about it! I just smiled.

But basically due to people like you who are advocating 3 corner fights, the more I pushed for Marine Parade contest. Yeah, I pushed it to satisfy the silly thirst of 3 corner fights that people wanted so much in future GEs. I have to thank WP actually for giving me the final good reason to push for sending a team into Marine Parade. To put it bluntly, as the leader of NSP, I have to plan in advanced for NSP's future GE interests. Tampines and Marine Parade will become a clip on WP's home base. They are like two hands holding Hougang, Aljunied and East Coast firmly. This is a response to WP's (your so call) "Superiority Complex" of wanting three corner fights; I have planned the three corner fights for them in the next GE if they really want any.

For a person who doesn't believe in 3 corner fight JUST YET, I feel bad for such setting. I was left with no choice but to do it to secure the future interests of NSP. If I wasn't the SG back then, I may not want or have the means to do it. But as SG, I have to make this painful decision which I know, will lay the foundation for future extensive 3 corner fights unless compromises have been made. I still hope compromises could be made but I really doubt that would happen, due to the "Superior Complex" that WP has now.

The feeling is actually mutual. To me, you are a stubborn recalcitrant who keeps talking about good to have 3 corner fight and of course, from my point of view, there is seriously something flawed in your thought process to say that. Again, context context context will always be important for me, but not for you.

I think you got it all wrong on why NSP eventually avoided 3 corner fight in MK. Let me give you most of the reasons why I advised against 3 corner fight with WP in MK.

1) Yes, three corner fight will only benefit the incumbent, PAP. No doubt about that.... well, even without 3 corner fight, WP could only get the base support level which it enjoys. Why waste resources?

2) As I have put it, MK isn't that a fantastic ground to start with, not comparable to Marine Parade in my assessment. There is no reason to clash with WP.

3) The only REAL reason for WP wanting to go into MK is to have 3 corner fight with NSP, to put its "Superior Branding" into real test. Of course, in doing so, curb the growth path of NSP altogether. All those talks about grooming new people are just BS which could only fool the naive and kindergarten kids. If that is really the reason, the best training ground is just next door, Marine Parade! So, why should I oblige to let WP test its "Superior Branding"?

4) Self Preservation. I have always told my members, we are just one election late than WP and we cannot let people destroy our path of growth. Going for a 3 corner fight with WP in MK will derail the effort of building up the NSP brand.

5) Instead of fighting a 3 Corner with WP back then, we should allow ourselves to grow stronger first but at the mean time, lay our grounds for future potential conflicts. Even back then, my assessment is that it will definitely come for next round and WP will definitely go into Tampines. Sylvia confirmed that just a couple of months ago. No hurry to fight the 3 corner fight now when we are still very weak, trying to progress. But sending a team to Marine Parade will prepare our future ground better.

6) Many people may think that the tit for tat will happen to Hougang or Aljunied. I would think otherwise. As I have said, 3 corner fights will benefit the incumbents. The best ground to fight a future 3 corner fight, beside Tampines and Marine Parade, is East Coast GRC. This is because for WP, they won't mind fighting 3 corner fight in Tampines, Marine Parade or MK because they do not fight to win there. WP won't even mind fighting 3 corner in Hougang or Aljunied because they have the incumbent advantage. Their most possible expansion in terms of higher chances of winning is East Coast GRC. Thus, the more effective threat is at East Coast, not Aljunied or Hougang. This is a threat to curb WP's growth.

I am not a silly emotional person with what you call, "Superiority Complex". I am damn pragmatic about politics and contrary to what you think, I don't live in ivory tower. I may have idealistic dreams or scenarios (well, that keep me going in this thankless fight) in my mind but I am also dead pragmatic.

CSM position is totally different from mine, my friend. Why should I cover YSL's arse? In my opinion, it would be very fake for me to answer as if I don't know who YSL is or what the issue is all about! Sometimes, something cannot be avoided and you will have to face it like a man. You do not look things from another perspective... it is basically due to such wishy washy views (no comment... it is just a rumor etc) that killed YSL. You can only fool some people some time, never all the people all the time! I am surprised you are advocating such attitude!

Yes, don't try to lecture me, I sincerely believe that we really think very differently.


Goh Meng Seng


Dear GMS,

Enough said, in your own mind, your logic flows so you get to be right.

No iota of objective reflection, you simply can't conceive all these while, something flawed about your innate thought process cause you to be unrepentent and recalcitrant. I believe now you are not stubborn, you genuinely don't get it hence everyone must be biased and your 'strategic savviness' as you unabashedly put it fence you in an ivory tower, where you fall back into a self righteous cloak that you are selfless, contention is not your style and you are the democracy advocate par excellence.

Far from it. Even if you agree to disagree -i.e. you and all your critics are all right in our own respective ways - the facts don't lie.

The fact that you are an aspiring leader with no followers and you never stick to your guns in real life. You join and leave parties, take up and relinquish positions of responsibility : damn you can't even bear with internal challenge, you just resigned with face intact and sounds-good reasons to the world for quitting NSP.

For all your criticism of Low, that man has commited belevers in him and in spite of living under the shadow of innuendos of foresaking JBJ, this man took it upon himself manfully to build up WP to its present stature.

Damn, if I were him, no 3 corner sacred cow avoidance i will adhere to! If you think you deserve to speak fornthe people, give 'em a choice and stop the oft used cowardly pretext that 3 corner fight favors PAP & all that bleeding heart puking notion that we must all unite in Opposition! A notion you GMS holdmto this day!

The facts speak for itself. I won't attempt to change your change your mind because your one track logic simply derive mirth from crafting your one track thought process.

Hindsight is supposed to help us learn the right lessons - not for you to use as a motherhood statement to imply it can turn out any way !

Your blind spot in the whole MK matter is
a. You wanna impose your reading of the prospects on other players - arrogance and folly
b. no guts to stand your ground, you forfeit standing in MK oh wow! In the name of avoiding 3-cornernfight -!and then get disenchanted, boo hoo WP arrogant don't play ball my way ! Boo hoo !

Learn from CSM's handling of questions in the ST interview. They ask him his personal take on YSL matter, he is so savvy : no names mentioned, no playing to interviewer's whim and fancy: he coolly used his own failure at not getting into med school to say, he just moved on - life sometimes didn't happen the way we want it to be.

That's political savvy for you GMS - instead of your morally repugnant self-righteous breast beating.

Yeah yeah fine, I got it 'upside down' yawn....
 
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Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Unfortunately and very sad to say this, I have to agree with you here.

Goh Meng Seng


Hazel Poa should prove her worth. As the NSP secretary-general, she appears only once every 3 months. Even the WP and SDP minions get their hands dirty for Singapore more than her. We don't measure quality and calibre by merely paper. PAP already beat everyone hands down. Their scholars are in truckloads but look what they have done to the country.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
I think you should stop and think before you write. If you ask for it, I will give it to you and I have made sure I have not leaked out anything which I shouldn't, just for the sake of your silly argument here:

http://tankinlian.blogspot.hk/2008/10/statutory-declaration-glenn-knight.html

Goh Meng Seng



So at the end of the day, GMS hides behind this mythical "other lawyer" whose (alleged) presence is supposed to indicate somehow ... just SOMEHOW ... that TKL was not at all to blame and he should not shoulder the burden of having mislead investors to engaging the legal services of a lemon lawyer.

It's amazing, isn't it? I only said TKL roped Leonard Loo in. These are the facts. The implication is also straightforward -- TKL should have done his background checks, and he shouldn't have placed a group of vulnerable investors in the hands of someone like Leonard Loo.

lockeliberal nailed it when he said minibond investors were screwed 3 times -- once by Lehman, once by Leonard, and then once by TKL who used them as political mileage.

And then somehow along the way, WP, LTK, YSL get ROPED INTO the discussion.

Absolutely amazing!
 

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
You are still talking through your ass. The reason that the esteemed gentleman was unable to assist TKL was not because he was afraid of the powers that be. It was because he could not get the support of his firm without upfront payment (yes, just money, no political conspiracy theory bullshit you sprout).

I think you should stop and think before you write. If you ask for it, I will give it to you and I have made sure I have not leaked out anything which I shouldn't, just for the sake of your silly argument here:

http://tankinlian.blogspot.hk/2008/10/statutory-declaration-glenn-knight.html

Goh Meng Seng
 
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