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RTS rapid transit system linking Johor and Singapore (MASTEEL)

snowbird

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Yes, it is indeed snail slow. The only reason I can see is that Beijing and Shanghai are in the same country, whereas JB and Woodland are in different country. Similarly, Shenzen and Hong Kong vs JB and Singapore are two different scenario.

Compare with HK/ Shenzhen, the population size of SG and JB combined and the commuters utilizing the proposed line is not justifiable.
Even if the construction cost is paid by the respective govt., the operation cost will be thus high resulting in high fares charged!
How much is one willing to pay for a one way SG/JB trip?
The current train service is already charging S$11.00 and I don't think it will be cheaper, so people would rather continue to take bus.
 

Jetstream

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I very kay poh and wrote to LTA asking for status of RTS plans.

The good news is that they replied. The bad news is that it's a standard bureaucratic reply that does not indicate when we can expect to ride the first train.

This is the reply:

QUOTE
We are currently carrying out a joint an architectural and engineering consultancy study to determine the technical parameters for the Rapid Transit System (RTS) Link.

However, as the study is on-going and the issue involves two countries, other aspects such as security and immigrations will have to be considered. More details of the RTS Link like its exact alignment and station locations will be announced after the studies are completed.
UNQUOTE
 

RedsYNWA

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Loyal
Compare with HK/ Shenzhen, the population size of SG and JB combined and the commuters utilizing the proposed line is not justifiable.
Even if the construction cost is paid by the respective govt., the operation cost will be thus high resulting in high fares charged!
How much is one willing to pay for a one way SG/JB trip?
The current train service is already charging S$11.00 and I don't think it will be cheaper, so people would rather continue to take bus.

For RTS, I believe we are talking in the range of about 200K passengers per day. S$5 is more than enough to generate the expected revenue of S$1m a day. Once the RTS is up, you can expect the JB govt to impose an additional toll on private vehicles (say RM 8 for motorbikes and RM20 for cars), in the name of 'reducing traffic congestion'.

For sure, RTS is a money spinner, compared to HSR which would have more weekend crowd but rather questionable weekday crowd.....
 

RedsYNWA

Alfrescian
Loyal
I very kay poh and wrote to LTA asking for status of RTS plans.

The good news is that they replied. The bad news is that it's a standard bureaucratic reply that does not indicate when we can expect to ride the first train.

This is the reply:

QUOTE
We are currently carrying out a joint an architectural and engineering consultancy study to determine the technical parameters for the Rapid Transit System (RTS) Link.

However, as the study is on-going and the issue involves two countries, other aspects such as security and immigrations will have to be considered. More details of the RTS Link like its exact alignment and station locations will be announced after the studies are completed.
UNQUOTE

Perhaps you should reply that they are way behind schedule. Original announcement was Dec'13, and then postponed to Dec'14. Silence since then. The public taxpayers deserve to get an updated timeline....... Haha
 

snowbird

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For RTS, I believe we are talking in the range of about 200K passengers per day. S$5 is more than enough to generate the expected revenue of S$1m a day. Once the RTS is up, you can expect the JB govt to impose an additional toll on private vehicles (say RM 8 for motorbikes and RM20 for cars), in the name of 'reducing traffic congestion'.

For sure, RTS is a money spinner, compared to HSR which would have more weekend crowd but rather questionable weekday crowd.....

Don't forget that out of the daily over 200K commuters, the bulk are lower wage earners and the current bus fare is only $1.00 to $1.50 will continue taking bus instead of paying 5 times more!
Those coming in on factory chartered buses will continue doing so.
Another over 100K are motor bikers who will continue motor biking unless a high toll on MY side is imposed.
Perhaps its those driving that might decide to take the train provided its cheaper (many are now car pooling so cost of driving is greatly reduced).
Day trippers are a negligible factor, grocery shoppers will still continue to drive for convenience and to take back their bulky weekly/monthly shopping.
But anyway, countdown to the RTS can only begin after drawings and operational details / fares charged are approved concurrently between SG and MY and to date, NOTHING YET!!
So probably still have to wait long long lah.
 

RedsYNWA

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Don't forget that out of the daily over 200K commuters, the bulk are lower wage earners and the current bus fare is only $1.00 to $1.50 will continue taking bus instead of paying 5 times more!
Those coming in on factory chartered buses will continue doing so.
Another over 100K are motor bikers who will continue motor biking unless a high toll on MY side is imposed.
Perhaps its those driving that might decide to take the train provided its cheaper (many are now car pooling so cost of driving is greatly reduced).
Day trippers are a negligible factor, grocery shoppers will still continue to drive for convenience and to take back their bulky weekly/monthly shopping.
But anyway, countdown to the RTS can only begin after drawings and operational details / fares charged are approved concurrently between SG and MY and to date, NOTHING YET!!
So probably still have to wait long long lah.

You are right that it will take a long time before RTS is up. But I think my 200k ridership is quite reasonable. In fact I think it may be under-estimated. As of now even without RTS, the daily commuter volume is over 300K at Woodlands Checkpoint alone. Customs has been quoted as saying that motorbikes make up around 30% of the commuter numbers, which I think is quite reasonable at around 100K. For eg, one can see that easily over 90% of the riders (including pillion) are males, yet Malaysian females are a huge no in the workplace, and they will be using other modes of transport.

So currently, even without RTS, we should already have 200K coming into/out SG via buses/cars/vans or walking. Out of the 300K commuting population, lets assume that 30% or 100k will switch to RTS.

There are also huge number of Malaysians renting rooms in Singapore, at around S$700 per room or S$350 per pax. This is surely money down the drain for them, and they are faced with restrictions eg no pets/no cooking. Easily another 50k or so will be tempted to switch over, while the remaining 50k could easily be Singaporean households renting out their HDB flat & commuting from JB (my cousin used to be 1 eg).
 

snowbird

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Loyal
You are right that it will take a long time before RTS is up. But I think my 200k ridership is quite reasonable. In fact I think it may be under-estimated. As of now even without RTS, the daily commuter volume is over 300K at Woodlands Checkpoint alone. Customs has been quoted as saying that motorbikes make up around 30% of the commuter numbers, which I think is quite reasonable at around 100K. For eg, one can see that easily over 90% of the riders (including pillion) are males, yet Malaysian females are a huge no in the workplace, and they will be using other modes of transport.

So currently, even without RTS, we should already have 200K coming into/out SG via buses/cars/vans or walking. Out of the 300K commuting population, lets assume that 30% or 100k will switch to RTS.

There are also huge number of Malaysians renting rooms in Singapore, at around S$700 per room or S$350 per pax. This is surely money down the drain for them, and they are faced with restrictions eg no pets/no cooking. Easily another 50k or so will be tempted to switch over, while the remaining 50k could easily be Singaporean households renting out their HDB flat & commuting from JB (my cousin used to be 1 eg).

Anyway, whether the RTS is going to be a reality is still a big ?
One main factor that is going to affect the ridership will be the fare, anything above S$5.00 for one way will be tough for many and I still think the fare will be very much higher!
Then its the support transport system. If the train cabins used are going to be similar to the current MRT type, then a full capacity train can carry about 1900 commuters.
Imagine during peak hours, each time the train arrives, say at 15mins intervals and with about 1900 commuters coming out and there are insufficient public transport to disperse them in time..............this will be the real big problem if you take a good look at the current JB public transport system!!
You may take 15 mins to come in from SG but more than 30 mins to get out of the JB station just waiting for bus...........don't make much sense.
 
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MEOWCAT

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I know I digress but don't say RTS which is massive investment....

Let's talk about simple thing like ferry service from Singapore to Puteri Harbour. CIQs both sides built already. There is a willing service provider - Wavemaster....EVERYTHING READY. Long time ago they said mid-2013... But then nothong but last year a firm announcement (with a date!) is that ferry service start on 7th Nov... Then I drop by in Dec, they say, Jan, maybe Feb... Well, it's Feb now... Is it operational? (That is despite people working around the speed limit - cannot have fast ferry - which makes travel time 1.5hrs instead of 45 mins..

I think if they can't even nail that down, maybe someone in Singapore or Malaysia (or both) is really not that keen on Iskandar working... So for me, I am not even thinking RTS or HSR... a lot of hints can be found from the ferry service, if you get what I mean?
 

RedsYNWA

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I know I digress but don't say RTS which is massive investment....

Let's talk about simple thing like ferry service from Singapore to Puteri Harbour. CIQs both sides built already. There is a willing service provider - Wavemaster....EVERYTHING READY. Long time ago they said mid-2013... But then nothong but last year a firm announcement (with a date!) is that ferry service start on 7th Nov... Then I drop by in Dec, they say, Jan, maybe Feb... Well, it's Feb now... Is it operational? (That is despite people working around the speed limit - cannot have fast ferry - which makes travel time 1.5hrs instead of 45 mins..

I think if they can't even nail that down, maybe someone in Singapore or Malaysia (or both) is really not that keen on Iskandar working... So for me, I am not even thinking RTS or HSR... a lot of hints can be found from the ferry service, if you get what I mean?

Well, I am not sure what both govts are thinking, if they had just spent US$42m on the consultancy costs, without going ahead. I feel it is more inefficiency than anything else.

http://investors.aecom.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=131318&p=irol-newsArticle_Print&ID=1698459
 

MEOWCAT

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Well, I am not sure what both govts are thinking, if they had just spent US$42m on the consultancy costs, without going ahead. I feel it is more inefficiency than anything else.

http://investors.aecom.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=131318&p=irol-newsArticle_Print&ID=1698459

I dunno... Shall I try something more cynical than that.... Exports are falling, growth is falling, efficiency and productivity is falling what with the foreign labour cap. Property prices in Singapore are falling... I'm just wondering if maybe some of the powers-that-be may not want to make it easier still for people who can afford it to go North...

I mean... there was lots of inequality and people were unhappy but... I look at some of the policies and they seem to reduce inequality not by giving those at the bottom a significantly better life, but by making it harder for those in the middle or upper middle to have a better life or to move ahead (the upper crust somehow will always likely remain unscathed) ie. Everybody is the same, so stop complaining and live your lot... Now, one has to admit that being Singaporean, one cannot be in the lower end of the spectrum in Singapore... You need to have a decent income and some savings to buy a Malaysian property, something that a lot of people can't do (Median salary of Singaporean residents in 2014 was $3,770 INCLUDING employer contributions so stated wage is around $3,336 and take home around $2,670. That doesn't leave a lot left after deducting expenses.). Remember if median is around $3,350 there is another 50% below that.

I mean, sure, there will be people who earn more, execs, white collars, more senior wage earners - in the $5,000 to $10,000 range... But if you look at that, the difference is not much more per month. If your salary is $5,000 and your take home is $4,000, the median salary owner is taking home two thirds as much as you. One may think it is a lot in the long run but actually, it is not. The big difference is surplus income. The person who takes home the median of $2,670 will have, if he is lucky, $500 left for savings or investment or additional luxuries. The person who takes home $4,000, if he spends the same on necessities as the median salary owner, will have around $2,000 left. That is 400% higher than the median wage earner.

Now, again, one may think that is a lot in the long run but the truth is that depending on what you do with your money, it is not. With the low interest rates in Singapore, putting the money in the bank will not see you much better off than the median in the long run. What the higher disposable income meant for the higher income earners of yesteryears was that it allowed them to invest in property. Their higher incomes allowed them to take bigger loans and their higher surplus income allowed them to service them more effectively. And then if they were smart, they would get higher returns from their investments either through selling or through rent. So not only the principal difference increased over the years but their rate of return on excess income increased a lot. And after a while you get a middle class which was quite comfortable.

I'll not go into the political context or the fact that in elections everybody, regardless of income, has one vote. But let's just look for example of the latest laws regarding property. I know and believe that a big argument is to prevent people from over-committing. But unwittingly or wittingly, it has the effect of pricing some people out of the market. So, take for example the median earner of $2,670 and the person who takes home $4000, now both cannot buy an additional property and have to put the money in the bank... Ok, maybe the higher earner can have more luxuries but it is very possible both will stay in the same HDB flat... That is not so big a gap...

I know I am long-winded but here the Malaysia part comes in... Being suddenly cut out of Singapore property the higher wage earner suddenly realises - "Oh, if I just look across the causeway, I can have luxurious living with my salary...I can get loans, the property is cheaper, it is a SHORT drive.."

And that's where my possible conspiracy theory comes in. After effectively reducing the ability of the upper middle class to move ahead in Singapore, there is suddenly a loophole which threatens to create two classes. One who can have a higher standard of living by going to Malaysia and one who cannot... How would the have-nots feel? How would they vote?

But there are impediments.. Customs, jams, transportation.... But they can be surmounted right? By building new causeways, links, the RTS, the HSR, having a ferry service, improving infrastructure such that going to JB would be like going to a part of Singapore and vice-versa....

But... But....
 

snowbird

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Loyal
Well, I am not sure what both govts are thinking, if they had just spent US$42m on the consultancy costs, without going ahead. I feel it is more inefficiency than anything else.

http://investors.aecom.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=131318&p=irol-newsArticle_Print&ID=1698459

The consultancy firm was suppose to conduct a comprehensive study to "determine the technical parameters and proposed options for a convenient and cost-effective system that is well-integrated with public transport services on both ends of the RTS Link".
But what if the study shows that the system is not sustainable economically and seamless integration with public transport on JB side may be too huge a task?
 

RedsYNWA

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The consultancy firm was suppose to conduct a comprehensive study to "determine the technical parameters and proposed options for a convenient and cost-effective system that is well-integrated with public transport services on both ends of the RTS Link".
But what if the study shows that the system is not sustainable economically and seamless integration with public transport on JB side may be too huge a task?

Err....this is a wind-up right? :biggrin:
 

RedsYNWA

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This is just so irritating!


http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/tra...-system-to-start-after-jb-terminal-is-decided

THE second phase of an engineering study on the Rapid Transit System (RTS), to which Singapore's MRT system will be connected, will begin after the location of the terminal in Johor Baru has been fixed.

Meanwhile, Singapore is also expected to announce the location of the High Speed Rail (HSR) terminal at the upcoming Leaders' Retreat.

The Malaysia-Singapore Joint Ministerial Committee for Iskandar Malaysia (JMCIM) said this in a press statement on Friday as it gave an update on the ongoing work between both countries.

The RTS will connect Johor Baru to the Thomson MRT line and is set for completion by 2018.

Malaysian media reports last year named Bukit Chagar - near the Customs, Immigration and Quarantine complex at the Sultan Iskandar Building - as the location of the terminal, rather than potential sites such as Tanjung Puteri and JB Sentral.

Meanwhile, work is progressing on the HSR, with various working groups now looking into the technical requirements, and the operating and financing models, said the JMCIM. Media reports last year had said that details on the HSR will be finalised in the first quarter of this year.

Transport connectivity between both countries is also being enhanced through an increase in the quota for cross-border bus services from 16 to 20. A committee is currently reviewing new landing points in both countries to further improve the cross-border bus network.

The JMCIM was co-chaired by Malaysia's Minister in the Prime Minister's Department Abdul Wahid Omar and Singapore's Minister for National Development Khaw Boon Wan. Johor's Menteri Besar Mohamed Khaled Nordin and Singapore's Minister for Transport Lui Tuck Yew, as well as senior officials from both countries, were also at the meeting.
 

Manhattan

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Does any of you noticed that the news basically provided no new information. Like submitting a monthly report when there's nothing to report. Nevertheless, I am still happy the RTS has not been forgotten. I am still very interested to see the design of the track that will go around or through the PC nicely to reach bukit chagar.
 

cslong

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Does any of you noticed that the news basically provided no new information. Like submitting a monthly report when there's nothing to report. Nevertheless, I am still happy the RTS has not been forgotten. I am still very interested to see the design of the track that will go around or through the PC nicely to reach bukit chagar.

Definitely go around PC. Impossible to go through it.
 

snowbird

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If you really take a good look at all the news released on this proposed RTS, you'll find plenty of inconsistencies all over.
First, there were beautiful proposal showing route 1, 2 and 3 all coming under the former customs building towards JB Central.
While some people were making those conceptual drawings, another party were busy concluding the sales of the said land and sea beyond to developers from China.
There next thing, R&F started building on the very site of the proposed RTS line alignment while concurrently going ahead with massive reclamation for the next phases!
This just shows that there were absolutely no co-ordination and cross-references within relevant departments.
As such, all the proposed routes, underground or above had almost become obsolete.
And now, our super smart Cslong can even give his confirmation that it "definitely go around PC" as though he is RTS planner.
The way the project progress, no one will know what to expect next except for Cslong and perhaps he can kindly provide a bit more info.
 

cslong

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Loyal
If you really take a good look at all the news released on this proposed RTS, you'll find plenty of inconsistencies all over.
First, there were beautiful proposal showing route 1, 2 and 3 all coming under the former customs building towards JB Central.
While some people were making those conceptual drawings, another party were busy concluding the sales of the said land and sea beyond to developers from China.
There next thing, R&F started building on the very site of the proposed RTS line alignment while concurrently going ahead with massive reclamation for the next phases!
This just shows that there were absolutely no co-ordination and cross-references within relevant departments.
As such, all the proposed routes, underground or above had almost become obsolete.
And now, our super smart Cslong can even give his confirmation that it "definitely go around PC" as though he is RTS planner.
The way the project progress, no one will know what to expect next except for Cslong and perhaps he can kindly provide a bit more info.

Just use some common sense. Not logical to go through PC.
 
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