Penalty for acquiring another passport

[Charlie9]

Thanks for the support bro. This matter is being considered by cabinet as revealed by old man himself nearly a year back. They have decided not to act yet but to KIV. The matter interestingly is not about clearly prohibiting dual citizenship but making it clear that it is allowed.

The brain drain has been quite significant (compliment to you) and the government's lack of clarity has led to good people giving up their citizenship. Some may even consider returning if they had held on to their citizenship and that means return of valuable talent and serious retirement funds that will boost our economy.

There are also other considerations such a allowing ex-singaporeans to reapply. Australia now allows that with a change of law a few years back. It was called the "Murdoch law" to allow Rupert Murdoch to get back his citizenship which he had to give up to take up US citizenship to own an American Press. China has had that for many years. It is allowed only once.

Greetings brother [scroobal],
From sunny and pleasant (17C) Toronto.
I am not one those cherished SAFOS, President's Scholars, or OMS. Although I attended one of the best schools in SG (compliments of the SG govt), I am just fortunate to graduate with the assistance of a scholarship. Thereafter, I continued further education and professional trg in Canada.
I am not at liberty to provide the details, but I know you are correct vis-a-vis the dual citizenship matter as it pertains to SG and Canada.
Perhaps, those Singaporeans who are considering applying for Australian, NZ, or Canadian citizenship, may wish to evaluate whether or not to renounce their SG citizenship. I believe that for those with little in their CPF account, it would be preferable to keep all options open by holding dual citizenship.
If the law does not prohibit (remember the word "may"), an individual should maximize the benefits of holding dual citizenship.
Cheers. Have a good week. When you do visit Toronto, please find me in the Toronto Yellow Pages or White Pages (telephone directory).

 

[scroobal]

Bro, every Singaporean with brains that leave is a loss to Singapore. Thats includes you.

Greetings brother [scroobal],
From sunny and pleasant (17C) Toronto.
I am not one those cherished SAFOS, President's Scholars, or OMS. Although I attended one of the best schools in SG (compliments of the SG govt), I am just fortunate to graduate with the assistance of a scholarship. Thereafter, I continued further education and professional trg in Canada.

Yes, agree. All they have to do when they acquire their new citizenship is to pop down to ICA when they are next back and check the status. I know for fact that before ICA gives an answer, they will require you to produce the citizenship documents and passport of the new country before they answer. I believe someone has already shared his or his friend's positive experience with this route.

Sometime in 2002/3, MFA actually had a website on dual citizenship status and NS obligation. They have since removed it.

Holding on also means that your options are also much wider for business, family and personal reasons.

I am not at liberty to provide the details, but I know you are correct vis-a-vis the dual citizenship matter as it pertains to SG and Canada.
Perhaps, those Singaporeans who are considering applying for Australian, NZ, or Canadian citizenship, may wish to evaluate whether or not to renounce their SG citizenship. I believe that for those with little in their CPF account, it would be preferable to keep all options open by holding dual citizenship.
If the law does not prohibit (remember the word "may"), an individual should maximize the benefits of holding dual citizenship.
Cheers. Have a good week. When you do visit Toronto, please find me in the Toronto Yellow Pages or White Pages (telephone directory).

One of these days, must make that journey up north to Canada.

 

[scroobal]

Bro, the practice in the past was draconian and basically all the countries more or less had the same approach.

Things have changed and very quickly. It good to keep up with the times and where Singapore is concerned, the lack of transparency is notorious. Si it important that myths are not perpetuated.

You have come to the point where you defining "forfeit" and "may" to suit your argument.

Anyway, HDB will review and does not make it mandatory.

I am not imagining. Isn't your last paragraph precisely equivalent to 'forfeiting' a HDB flat? Selling it back to the HDB at a price determined by HDB is NOT to the sellers ADVANTAGE. Buying a flat at $300,000 and then selling it back to the HDB at say a price they compensate at $200,000 is a forfeit of $100,000!!!!

And all of the above can become a nightmare reality from flashing a foreign passport and a SG passport at the ICA office by someone listening to you and following your gungho advice.

 

[scroobal]

The issue is holding on to Singaporean passport after acquiring a foreign passport. The impression that you created or the perception given out in your post is that NZ has deemed that Singaporeans can't hold on to dual citizenship. Which is not the case. I posted that extract from NZ Govt website to make it clear that NZ gives general advisory and that they do not notify the Singapore Govt of your application. Most people reading the extract will now know what it means.

Retaining Singaporean passports on being granted new citizenship by one's new country used to be a practice but not any longer. You did not say it but I put it there to make it clear to anyone reading this thread.

The approach that I take is to provide as much clarity and avoid any erroneous perception that others might hold when reading this thread.

The last paragraph is what I have been trying to tell you. I have also said that NZ has allowed dual citizenship all along amd I have NEVER said that the NZ govt holds back the SG passport nor advises the SG govt about such applications.

The advice or warning given is to the applicant concerned and not the govt of the applicant about the need to be wary that the SG does not permit dual citizenship for SG citizens acquiring NZ citizenship.

COMPREHENDO!

 

[Papsmearer]

Show me the law that prohibits holding dual or multiple citizenship.

The Government "may" also acquire your freehold house to extend the road in front of your home. And the law also allows them to do that. I am sure that will not deter you buying a home.

Do not let the PAP government run your life in this manner. I have no time for this authoritarian government but one cannot live in fear and live on bad information and old wives's tales.

Scroobal, u are the sort of person who is either a govt. agent in this forum or give dangerous advice. The law plain and simply says u cannot have 2 passports/citizenships. Whether the govt. chooses to enforce it or not, does not matter. They change their bloody minds all the time. We don't know who this Jason T is either. If he is a member of an opposition party, they will make it a point to whack him. If u have pissed off the govt. for whatever reasons, they can easily choose to visit all manner or fines and jail time on you in an ugly and very public manner. If u are nobody to them, u come and go, no problem. There is very real danger here.

 

[scroobal]

Which law - "plain and simple"?

The Singapore laws are online here:
http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/

Like most of us Singaporeans, we tend to rely on myths and the PAP government thrives on it by being selective in its approach to transparency. I think you have been conditioned that independent thought is a challenge.


I will start a new thread so that the discussion can be better organised. Must thank Jason for starting this thread.

Scroobal, u are the sort of person who is either a govt. agent in this forum or give dangerous advice. The law plain and simply says u cannot have 2 passports/citizenships. Whether the govt. chooses to enforce it or not, does not matter. They change their bloody minds all the time. We don't know who this Jason T is either. If he is a member of an opposition party, they will make it a point to whack him. If u have pissed off the govt. for whatever reasons, they can easily choose to visit all manner or fines and jail time on you in an ugly and very public manner. If u are nobody to them, u come and go, no problem. There is very real danger here.

 

[Papsmearer]

Which law - "plain and simple"?

The Singapore laws are online here:
http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/

Like most of us Singaporeans, we tend to rely on myths and the PAP government thrives on it by being selective in its approach to transparency. I think you have been conditioned that independent thought is a challenge.


I will start a new thread so that the discussion can be better organised. Must thank Jason for starting this thread.

U are naive. U have not seen first hand, how family friends, ex-colleagues, and others that I have known are PERSECUTED by the govt. via various agencies like Inland Revenue until they are at their wits end for simply associating with the wrong people. Its not a myth, its a fact. Grow up.

 

[Papsmearer]

Hi Papsmearer,

I think we might have started off on the wrong footing. After reading through your posts more than once, I choose to believe that you genuinely want to help and advise about the repercussions of having dual nationality. I thank you for that. You and many others who contributed to this thread could have just remained "silent" and minded your own business, but the decision was made to "speak out".

The sarcasm made towards you, Papsmearer, regarding your economic situation by me is totally uncalled for and I am sorry for that.

The reason why I started this thread is to find out what the penalties are, if any, for having dual passports.

This thread may have deviated to different focus points like:
- why have dual passports (whether it is an escape/backup solution or investment strategy, kiasu, clear conscience, failure is not an option ...)
- what's the reason for retaining Singapore passport (easy access to many countries, winning Government contracts, ...)
That's all good for the community reading this thread - sharing knowledge. Especially the foodie recommendation

Still, I am keen to find out if there are any indication about the penalties listed (if any) in the Singapore Government websites. NissanVIP has pointed out that ICA law has stated clearly with regards to dual citizenship. I cannot find any information on that on their website. Scroobal has pointed out that full transparency is not beneficial to the government and I do see his/her point.

I have also heard of many perceptions of this issue prior to starting this thread and my initial intention is to see if anyone could let us know from a Government website what the penalties, if any, are. This is because what is indicated in the government websites (not Wikipedia or other external bodies/forums or people) could be interpreted in different ways if you read carefully.

JT

Its already been stated in the various posts here that the penalty for holding another passport is the lost of your S'pore citizenship. In addition to that, if u have been overseas for extended periods without an appropriate exit permit, you will also have violated the Enlistment Act, and be liable for a jail term of 3 years or fines of up to $5000. Most people can get an exit permit for 1 or 2 years. But anything longer than that and MINDEF will smell a rat. Once u stay overseas for extended periods, even though u may already have a new passport, u will still be legible for annual obligations as an OR NSmen. Since u are not in S'pore, u will nto be able to go to ICTs, call ups, etc. It will stupid to fly all the way back to S'pore to perform ICT anyway. Letters to you from your reservist unit will go answered or u may not be able to show your reservist unit you have a valid exit permit. This will trigger a default under the Enlistment Act and this is where your troubles are. When u return next to S'pore, ICA will be the least of your worries, MINDEF will be your biggest problem. If you already have fulfilled all your reservist obligations or are above the age of 50, than you are in luck. No need for exit permit.

 

[scroobal]

Once you commit a crime or in their view a perception of a crime, this govt will use all avenues open to them. Tang Liang Hong and Francis Seow are 2 examples where they used the IRAS to suit their needs.

That does not mean that one has to be fearful of the regime and hide all the time. I would like to see this govt prosecute anyone for having dual citizenship without its being prohibited by law and where no punishment is prescribed. All they can do is take it away.

You remind me of my mum who used to tell me better to vote PAP as the ballot papers are marked.

Lets be rational.

U are naive. U have not seen first hand, how family friends, ex-colleagues, and others that I have known are PERSECUTED by the govt. via various agencies like Inland Revenue until they are at their wits end for simply associating with the wrong people. Its not a myth, its a fact. Grow up.

 

[scroobal]

Now you introducing irrelevant things to substantiate an untenable position.

You will be prosecuted for NS obligation which includes a whole range of things such as reservist, expired exit permit etc.

This applies whether you have a singapore citizenship or any other citizenship. If you only hold Singapore citizenship, you will still be prosecuted. What has this got to do with the topic.

Its already been stated in the various posts here that the penalty for holding another passport is the lost of your S'pore citizenship. In addition to that, if u have been overseas for extended periods without an appropriate exit permit, you will also have violated the Enlistment Act, and be liable for a jail term of 3 years or fines of up to $5000. Most people can get an exit permit for 1 or 2 years. But anything longer than that and MINDEF will smell a rat. Once u stay overseas for extended periods, even though u may already have a new passport, u will still be legible for annual obligations as an OR NSmen. Since u are not in S'pore, u will nto be able to go to ICTs, call ups, etc. It will stupid to fly all the way back to S'pore to perform ICT anyway. Letters to you from your reservist unit will go answered or u may not be able to show your reservist unit you have a valid exit permit. This will trigger a default under the Enlistment Act and this is where your troubles are. When u return next to S'pore, ICA will be the least of your worries, MINDEF will be your biggest problem. If you already have fulfilled all your reservist obligations or are above the age of 50, than you are in luck. No need for exit permit.

 

[Papsmearer]

Now you introducing irrelevant things to substantiate an untenable position.

You will be prosecuted for NS obligation which includes a whole range of things such as reservist, expired exit permit etc.

This applies whether you have a singapore citizenship or any other citizenship. If you only hold Singapore citizenship, you will still be prosecuted. What has this got to do with the topic.

That is what I mean about u, u are living in lala land. If you are living in S'pore, what are the odds that you will be able to fulfill all your NS obligations. Pretty High. Now u are living in another country for an extended period of time, a citizen of that country, and under an expired exit permit (and therefore illegally under the enlistment act), what are your odds of being able to fulfill the same obligations. Slim to non, hence u go to jail. Therefore, this has everything to do with the topic. If u had half a brain, u will see it too. I have known several people who have passports of other countries, and who have had RPs knock on their relatives' doors because they did not report for some Reservist obligation or other. These people are in trouble if they come back to S'pore and discovered by MINDEF. If he wants to hold another country's passport and live in S'pore, and that would be stupid, than he will lose his S'pore citizenship if discovered, plus whatever other penalties. Read between the lines, the threadstarter has said that he will reside in the other country and hold both passports. Use some imagination.

 

[Charlie9]

Now you introducing irrelevant things to substantiate an untenable position.

You will be prosecuted for NS obligation which includes a whole range of things such as reservist, expired exit permit etc.

This applies whether you have a singapore citizenship or any other citizenship. If you only hold Singapore citizenship, you will still be prosecuted. What has this got to do with the topic.

Hi brother [scroobal],
After reading another individual's post, I wish to notify them that it is important to complete full time NS, and leave as young as possible, say after graduation from university, or leave for university overseas, continue to apply for exit permit (re: reservist) diligently every year (re: overseas education and / or employment overseas, or self employment as professional). Then it is unlikely the govt will ask you to surrender the SG passport. Forget about the CPF money. Travel to SG by entering and leaving with a SG passport. It has been done.
By the way RP (Regimental Police) can only enforce the military law within military areas, whereas MP (Military Police) may do so all over SG. If an individual has not done anything wrong (do not respond to the MP about your relatives), please tell the MP that the person they are looking for does reside with them, please leave and stop harassing.

 

[scroobal]

Yes, once these obligations are met, there are no basis to do anything to you. The only cases that I am aware of where passports are seized but not citizenship were due to people smuggling and misuse of passports.

Hi brother [scroobal],
After reading another individual's post, I wish to notify them that it is important to complete full time NS, and leave as young as possible, say after graduation from university, or leave for university overseas, continue to apply for exit permit (re: reservist) diligently every year (re: overseas education and / or employment overseas, or self employment as professional). Then it is unlikely the govt will ask you to surrender the SG passport. Forget about the CPF money. Travel to SG by entering and leaving with a SG passport. It has been done.
By the way RP (Regimental Police) can only enforce the military law within military areas, whereas MP (Military Police) may do so all over SG. If an individual has not done anything wrong (do not respond to the MP about your relatives), please tell the MP that the person they are looking for does reside with them, please leave and stop harassing.

 

[scroobal]

As long as you are employed or studying overseas, deferment will be granted. Those with migration PR only have to show to CMPB for exit permit and deferment. I believe it is 2 years and just keep renewing.

Thousands of singaporeans have migrated over the years. You must surely know some who will tell these simple steps.

Let me know if you want any other myths cleared.

That is what I mean about u, u are living in lala land. If you are living in S'pore, what are the odds that you will be able to fulfill all your NS obligations. Pretty High. Now u are living in another country for an extended period of time, a citizen of that country, and under an expired exit permit (and therefore illegally under the enlistment act), what are your odds of being able to fulfill the same obligations. Slim to non, hence u go to jail. Therefore, this has everything to do with the topic. If u had half a brain, u will see it too. I have known several people who have passports of other countries, and who have had RPs knock on their relatives' doors because they did not report for some Reservist obligation or other. These people are in trouble if they come back to S'pore and discovered by MINDEF. If he wants to hold another country's passport and live in S'pore, and that would be stupid, than he will lose his S'pore citizenship if discovered, plus whatever other penalties. Read between the lines, the threadstarter has said that he will reside in the other country and hold both passports. Use some imagination.

 

[ashjaw]

Wah... you learnt a lot liao.. where is their professional fee ? haha.

In this forum, there are heaps of lobangz tat the books dont teach.. these ppl in my opinion are genius.. Truely think outta box !

ya, I agree. I cannot afford professional fee... buy kopi, anytime!!

One thing I must add, this emigration forum is more 'civilised' than the coffee shop. Even though the threads discussed here sometimes get so 'heated' up, everyone here 'behaves' like a gentleman. So let's not spoil that alright?

So once a while, need a break to cool things down. But great job guys! Luv the new thread started by Scroobal on the to-dos for dual citizenship thingy. Very handy. Thanks .

 

[allanlee]

One thing I must add, this emigration forum is more 'civilised' than the coffee shop. Even though the threads discussed here sometimes get so 'heated' up, everyone here 'behaves' like a gentleman. So let's not spoil that alright?

This thread is moderated :p ....... some postings have been barred from appearing here

 

[allanlee]

U are naive. U have not seen first hand, how family friends, ex-colleagues, and others that I have known are PERSECUTED by the govt. via various agencies like Inland Revenue until they are at their wits end for simply associating with the wrong people. Its not a myth, its a fact. Grow up.

How do you know? Scroobal could very well have been the gahmen agent that hunted these people to be PERSECUTED

 

[scroobal]

Thanks for seeing this in the appropriate context. I have a lot of respect for Kiwibird who has been very encourging for those seeking greener pastures. He has also been very good with helpful hints and tips over the years and I am sure that many would be migrants and migrants have benfitted. Occasionally we all get on the wrong horse and start throwing tantrums.

There used to be Melbourne Group that were also very helpful led by a chap that used to be in the Hair Dressing business. Good advice on schools, NS exmemption, business start- up and such. I even rememeber a lady sought assistance for sponsorship and help , people helped out. I hope these things get restarted. People like Axe have also shared their adventures including shortcuts.

Hope others will join in. Every bit helps.

ya, I agree. I cannot afford professional fee... buy kopi, anytime!!

One thing I must add, this emigration forum is more 'civilised' than the coffee shop. Even though the threads discussed here sometimes get so 'heated' up, everyone here 'behaves' like a gentleman. So let's not spoil that alright?

So once a while, need a break to cool things down. But great job guys! Luv the new thread started by Scroobal on the to-dos for dual citizenship thingy. Very handy. Thanks .

 

[neddy]

Once you commit a crime or in their view a perception of a crime, this govt will use all avenues open to them. Tang Liang Hong and Francis Seow are 2 examples where they used the IRAS to suit their needs.

Isn't that politics 101?

People who are ignorant of the laws and people who know and use the laws.

I am not sure if Tang or Seow use IRAS, but if we look hard enough, we will find a way to FIX the "troublemakers" like Tang or Seow.

 

[motuiti]

This is my question:

If I enter Singapore on a foreign passport, will immigration know that I'm also a Singapore citizen if I don't tell them?