No Basis for S'pore Opposition Parties to Mimic M'sian Opposition Coalition

[SgParent]

..........You get somebody in parliament, then you'll be able to attract more people to go door to door knocking. It's always a chicken and egg thing. It's not just "what's so difficult to comprehend". It's not "all they have to do is to get an army of people to go around door to door knocking". These people do not simply drop out of the sky. It's not the easiest thing in the world..

Disagree

Tell that to A+ Sylvia who went door-to-door in Aljunied GRC, before she was a MP. Or girl-next-door LLL before she was even a NCMP.

..........And it's not as though NSP hasn't be going around door to door knocking..

I did not say door-to-door=sure win.

With Rabid GohMS aka Mr I'm-alway's-correct aka Mr I-always-have-the-last-word leading NSP then, even if the candidates lived with the voters also no use.

 

[SgParent]

Although policies and ideology matter to me, so is the trustworthiness. It doesn't take a kid to understand that people can don't mean what they say. In that sense, politicians who say unpopular things may be more trustworthy. It is a good test of mettle to see how parties react to critical situations, rather than just look at their manifestoes.

I think yellowarse is saying it's easier to "trust" someone you have met, shaken hands, seen each other in the eyes.

 

[scroobal]

Just to bring back to the ground level.

1. Singapore politics is personality based and not ideology based. It is the same for both the Opposition and the PAP. It also explains why the PAP can allow lesser quality candidates to ride on the coat tails of better candidates.

2. WP as a brand did fall behind Chiam and his party in early 90s until LTK built it around his personality. It does help with the WP brand is a known brand but the driver is still LTK.

3. It is for this very reason that SDP, its followers as well as voters are in a quandary. People like what SDP has been doing for the last few years and the introduction of some quality candidates in recent times but personality issue around Chee would be the biggest stumbling block. We all know that SDP has the best website, very timely with important news, have a range of alternative programmes etc and miles away from other parties and yet the results are not there.

4. Talk to any voter and he will tell you he has no clue about ideology, Westminster model etc. What he will tell you is LTK is solid, Tharman is nice, Chiam really looked after the heartlanders JBJ is a fighter etc.

 

[SgParent]

Just to bring back to the ground level.

1. Singapore politics is personality based and not ideology based. It is the same for both the Opposition and the PAP. It also explains why the PAP can allow lesser quality candidates to ride on the coat tails of better candidates.

2. WP as a brand did fall behind Chiam and his party in early 90s until LTK built it around his personality. It does help with the WP brand is a known brand but the driver is still LTK.

Ok personality plays a part as well.

.......3. It is for this very reason that SDP, its followers as well as voters are in a quandary. People like what SDP has been doing for the last few years and the introduction of some quality candidates in recent times but personality issue around Chee would be the biggest stumbling block. We all know that SDP has the best website, very timely with important news, have a range of alternative programmes etc and miles away from other parties and yet the results are not there.

So replace CSJ and suddenly SDP will win elections?

Too bad we may not see who between us is correct since the above will not happen anytime soon.

 

[cleareyes]

So replace CSJ and suddenly SDP will win elections?

Maybe this is the only way to move forward.

The question is: are people willing to forsake CSJ just because they worship him?

 

[Cosmos10]

Maybe this is the only way to move forward.

The question is: are people willing to forsake CSJ just because they worship him?

Whether CSJ stays as the leader of the SDP or not is a decision for the SDP supporters to decide. And as of now, the SDP members are supportive of his leadership.

Is CSJ perfect? No.

Is CSJ capable enough? Yes.

We, the SDP supporters, do NOT worship CSJ like the way the WP supporters worship LTK. Unlike the WP (and the PAP), SDP politics are indeed ideology-based. We believe in human rights, we believe in abolishing the ISA, we believe in free media and speech, etc., we believe in empowering the Singaporeans (through education, forums etc.) so that we the voters will never need to kowtow to our elected representatives. The SDP has always been consistent in its belief of the fundamentals of democracy. It is this solid belief, and strong conviction and passion that helps the SDP stand true. The SDP rarely flip-flops on its position and policies. The WP, on the other hand, flip-flops its policies and beliefs depending on which way the wind blows, pandering to the voters.

It is up to the Singaporean voters to decide whether they like the SDP kind of politics or not.

Many of the brothers in this forum (and in this thread) do not sincerely want to see the SDP succeed, so why are you so overly-concerned about whether CSJ remains as the leader of the SDP or not?

 

[3_M]

Just to bring back to the ground level.

4. Talk to any voter and he will tell you he has no clue about ideology, Westminster model etc. What he will tell you is LTK is solid, Tharman is nice, Chiam really looked after the heartlanders JBJ is a fighter etc.

The opposition voters will vote base on ideology or anything- but- PAP. The more centrists voters will vote more on personality and current issues. Ideology doesn't have much of an appeal to this voting bloc. Perhaps it the reason why SDP hardly can made any inroad on this group of voters, the very reason why I still maintain the bleak picture for them for GE2016.

 

[SgParent]

Whether CSJ stays as the leader of the SDP or not is a decision for the SDP supporters to decide. And as of now, the SDP members are supportive of his leadership.

People are only expressing their views on how SDP can start winning elections again. Why get your knickers in a twist?

If SDP and their members think they are on the right path then by all means ignore such opinions lah.

Is CSJ perfect? No.

Is CSJ capable enough? Yes.

That is over simplified the history of Oppo cause. Or worse you are acting innocent.

On the surface, at least SDP under CSJ, failed to advance the interests of true pink Singaporeans when SDP was the biggest or should I say the only Oppo in the Parliament. No?

We, the SDP supporters, do NOT worship CSJ like the way the WP supporters worship LTK. Unlike the WP (and the PAP), SDP politics are indeed ideology-based. We believe in human rights, we believe in abolishing the ISA, we believe in free media and speech, etc., we believe in empowering the Singaporeans (through education, forums etc.) so that we the voters will never need to kowtow to our elected representatives. The SDP has always been consistent in its belief of the fundamentals of democracy. It is this solid belief, and strong conviction and passion that helps the SDP stand true. The SDP rarely flip-flops on its position and policies. The WP, on the other hand, flip-flops its policies and beliefs depending on which way the wind blows, pandering to the voters.

No flip flopping? Strong conviction? Pls lah.

PE SMC BE? Remember? More like no conviction and strong flip flopping.

And what ideology lah? It means nothing, empty words, hot air, etc, etc, if you dun win elections. No wonder some say SDP might as well become NGO, interest group. At least genuine NGO, interest groups can advance the interest of those that they represented.

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Ok lah I have said enough. Anymore and I will not be doing anyone any favor, except the White Scums and those spineless, shameless fake 40% who love nothing but to see Oppo whacking one another silly

SDP and you can choose to listen with an open heart or continue to stuck your head in the sand.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

If SDP wants to win votes and get into Parliament, it needs to give the people what they want.

Please tell me who in the opposition camp, regardless of party affiliation, does not believe in the goodness of free trade, human rights, universal suffrage, individual empowerment, equal opportunities, democracy, freedom of expression, etc. I'm sure even Desmond Lim can agree to all these.

In Singapore, you can't win votes just through ideology. If you want to win votes in Singapore, its the practical day to day and bread-and-butter issues that count. You also can't escape personality politics. You need to have a party icon (LTK, Sylvia, Nicole, etc) that brings positive personality branding to complement your campaign. You think LLL won because she is a pretty face? No, you've got to look at who was standing beside her on each election rally. Those were the faces that gave her the measure of credibility she needed to get that seat.

That is why Vincent Wijey, Paul tam, etc, should be allowed more opportunity to shine and be seen as the icons of SDP.

Whether CSJ stays as the leader of the SDP or not is a decision for the SDP supporters to decide. And as of now, the SDP members are supportive of his leadership.

Is CSJ perfect? No.

Is CSJ capable enough? Yes.

We, the SDP supporters, do NOT worship CSJ like the way the WP supporters worship LTK. Unlike the WP (and the PAP), SDP politics are indeed ideology-based. We believe in human rights, we believe in abolishing the ISA, we believe in free media and speech, etc., we believe in empowering the Singaporeans (through education, forums etc.) so that we the voters will never need to kowtow to our elected representatives. The SDP has always been consistent in its belief of the fundamentals of democracy. It is this solid belief, and strong conviction and passion that helps the SDP stand true. The SDP rarely flip-flops on its position and policies. The WP, on the other hand, flip-flops its policies and beliefs depending on which way the wind blows, pandering to the voters.

It is up to the Singaporean voters to decide whether they like the SDP kind of politics or not.

Many of the brothers in this forum (and in this thread) do not sincerely want to see the SDP succeed, so why are you so overly-concerned about whether CSJ remains as the leader of the SDP or not?

 

[jw5]

In Singapore, you can't win votes just through ideology. If you want to win votes in Singapore, its the practical day to day and bread-and-butter issues that count. You also can't escape personality politics. You need to have a party icon (LTK, Sylvia, Nicole, etc) that brings positive personality branding to complement your campaign. You think LLL won because she is a pretty face? No, you've got to look at who was standing beside her on each election rally. Those were the faces that gave her the measure of credibility she needed to get that seat.

That is why Vincent Wijey, Paul tam, etc, should be allowed more opportunity to shine and be seen as the icons of SDP.

You really hit the Mark with this post, LOL.

But talk about stating the obvious, sheeesh...........

And according to manipulative kaypohchee Scroobal, LTK is a pap agent. How can he be an opposition party icon?

 

[metalmickey]

Disagree

Tell that to A+ Sylvia who went door-to-door in Aljunied GRC, before she was a MP. Or girl-next-door LLL before she was even a NCMP.




I did not say door-to-door=sure win.

With Rabid GohMS aka Mr I'm-alway's-correct aka Mr I-always-have-the-last-word leading NSP then, even if the candidates lived with the voters also no use.

Well my point exactly. So Sylvia Lim and LLL have been making a lot of sacrifices in the beginning. But where do such people come from? They have to be in a race where they know they're going to win. They're not just going to do it for anybody. Are you going door to door knocking and doing all that hard work when you know that your leader is Chee Soon Juan or Goh Meng Seng?

 

[metalmickey]

Please tell me who in the opposition camp, regardless of party affiliation, does not believe in the goodness of free trade, human rights, universal suffrage, individual empowerment, equal opportunities, democracy, freedom of expression, etc. I'm sure even Desmond Lim can agree to all these.

In Singapore, you can't win votes just through ideology. If you want to win votes in Singapore, its the practical day to day and bread-and-butter issues that count. You also can't escape personality politics. You need to have a party icon (LTK, Sylvia, Nicole, etc) that brings positive personality branding to complement your campaign. You think LLL won because she is a pretty face? No, you've got to look at who was standing beside her on each election rally. Those were the faces that gave her the measure of credibility she needed to get that seat.

That is why Vincent Wijey, Paul tam, etc, should be allowed more opportunity to shine and be seen as the icons of SDP.

My guess is that a few people in the oppo camp don't really agree to all those. They just want the PAP out and they don't care if the oppo party turns out to be as repressive as the PAP so long as they do a good job.

Even in a mature democracy like the USA, to some extent, personality politics count. That's why the Democratic national convention pulled out Michelle Obama and Bill Clinton, the two people that they know, through polling, are the two most likeable politicians in America. And even then, they are campaigning on issues like deficit reduction that even mature voters do not completely understand or do not completely agree with.

As for Vincent Wijeysingha and Paul Tambyah, in a way they were are the forefront of SDP. One of them would have been the candidate for Punggol East, and not Chee.

 

[Cosmos10]

Please tell me who in the opposition camp, regardless of party affiliation, does not believe in the goodness of free trade, human rights, universal suffrage, individual empowerment, equal opportunities, democracy, freedom of expression, etc. I'm sure even Desmond Lim can agree to all these.

It is one thing to agree and give lip service only. It is totally another thing to believe it truly enough to fight for it, like the SDP does. All true democratic ideals have to be fought for because no dictator would ever give them away freely and easily.

Take the example of the ISA, till this day, I have never heard LTK fought against the ISA. Earlier this year, in February 2013, LTK (and all the WP MPs) were absent during the 50th anniversary of the Operation Coldstore. Like it or not, the Operation Coldstore will always be a part of Singapore's dark history that cannot be conveniently swept under the carpet. LTK seemed to be too "atas" and "ashamed" to be associated with our former political detainees. If a politician is NOT against the ISA, I have a legitimate reason to doubt his sincerity and belief of the Human Rights Law. Nobody should be above the law. Also, nobody should be "below" the law and not be given a fair trial in our Courts. If LTK is NOT against the ISA now, will I have faith to trust that he will not misuse the ISA, if given a chance in the future, just like the PAP did?

In Singapore, you can't win votes just through ideology. If you want to win votes in Singapore, its the practical day to day and bread-and-butter issues that count.

Please be fair to the SDP. The SDP has always fought for the bread and butter issues for Singaporeans. The important point to note is that ideology and bread and butter issues are NOT mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand. Good ideology leads to good bread and butter outcomes. It is the WP, because they do NOT have good ideology, who claim that bread and butter issues are the ONLY important issues. Come on, the SDP has to-date, put up detailed proposals on Housing, Healthcare, Population, Shadow Budget, etc. Please tell me, are these not bread and butter issues?

 

[tanwahp]

Please be fair to the SDP. The SDP has always fought for the bread and butter issues for Singaporeans. The important point to note is that ideology and bread and butter issues are NOT mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand. Good ideology leads to good bread and butter outcomes. It is the WP, because they do NOT have good ideology, who claim that bread and butter issues are the ONLY important issues. Come on, the SDP has to-date, put up detailed proposals on Housing, Healthcare, Population, Shadow Budget, etc. Please tell me, are these not bread and butter issues?

What comes to my mind is the 4 biggest causes SDP has been "damaged", that WP has not:

1. CSJ's hunger strike
2. Chiam's ouster
3. Legal fights ie defamations & demonstrations
4. Silly proposal for the Punggol BE

WP had its share of setbacks, but they never involved LTK or even Sylvia Lim. Yaw and Poh were major incidents, but the 2 are not LTK or SL and the party took quick action to make quick work of them. They did not become part of the damage. These incidents also happened when WP had already established itself somewhat.

It has nothing to do with who has the better policy, who is braver, who spoke up more, who walked more or who raised only bread and butter issues. So you are both right and wrong. Right that SDP also walked the ground and brought up bread and butter issues. Wrong that SDP has far superior ideas and is braver.

In these few areas of work I listed, neither are far inferior or superior. But for decisions and strategies that people can easily comprehend, SDP fell flat.

 

[metalmickey]

If the PAP and the SDP were running in my ward in a straight fight, I would vote for SDP. I'm not going to be so perverse like some people here, and they'd rather vote for the PAP than the SDP because they don't like the SDP.

SDP has strengths and weakness. No opposition candidate has held a higher position in the civil service than Tan Jee Say. None of them are as eloquent as Vincent Wijeysingha. And Paul Tambyah has the likeability - the med school professor everybody likes. Likewise for Ang Yong Guan. Whatever else you'd like to say, these are strong candidates. Except maybe that Tan Jee Say and Ang Yong Guan is no longer with them.

SDP will be good for parliament, they'll have a lot of wonks in their ranks. If they enter parliament, the PAP will be attacked a little more than right now under the WP. Could be good, or could be bad, but it will not fail to be interesting. Of all the opposition parties, I'm sure that everyone here agrees that nobody delivers better entertainment value than SDP. Right now the question is whether they enter parliament. The SDP will or will not enter parliament based on whether people vote them in. And not based on whether some people out there think they're going in or not. The fact that they have attracted doctors, it tells you that they're going to be good in health care policy.

So let's just wait and see. Give them a chance, see if they get in in 2016. If so, then they'll survive as a viable political force. If not, Chee Soon Juan is not going to live forever.

 

[scroobal]

Sadly I think so. He has exhausted his political capital. Bear in mind he took over a party that had 2 sitting (not including Chiam), SDP was on the ascendency. He got the equation so wrong There is not doubt that he is a hard worker but hard work on the wrong track does nothing.

Look at VW, look at Michelle, look at some of the others and they made sense in the last GE. When VW speaks every time he is speaking to the people, the voters and his message resonates with them.

The straw that broke the camel's back is the clown show with Jufrie in Punggol.

So replace CSJ and suddenly SDP will win elections?

Too bad we may not see who between us is correct since the above will not happen anytime soon.

 

[kingrant]

SDP had its chance in GE2011 when it put up a team comprising VW, TJS, AYG and Michelle, yet it still lost with nearly 40% of votes garnered. The team fought in Holland-Bkt Timah in a straight fight with PAP. The ward consists of richer middle class whose stomachs are full, and if anything, idealogy ought to have appealed to the voters there. But it did not. What does that tell you? Team was as you wished, SDP came with idealogy (ies), yet they didnt break 40%.

Therefore, SDP needs to review its strategy for elections, esp where to pick the good fight, and what issues to campaign on. Not least, door-to-door campaigning is important, grassroot work in the selected ward is also important. Do not think that SDP's brand name is good enough to just walk into any constituency at the 11th hr and expect voters there to embrace all that SDP stands for. Its brand name has been stigmatised with Chee for too long, and if people are somehow afraid of Chee, as a bee in the bonnet, and thinks that he'll make more of a mess to them than deliver solutions, then SDP will follow Chee to his grave. Despite Chee not standing in the last GE, his party still could not turn any tables. There is progress in voters' percentage over the years, but it's more of a rising tide that lifts all boats, and not just SDP alone.

Think about that.

If the PAP and the SDP were running in my ward in a straight fight, I would vote for SDP. I'm not going to be so perverse like some people here, and they'd rather vote for the PAP than the SDP because they don't like the SDP.

SDP has strengths and weakness. No opposition candidate has held a higher position in the civil service than Tan Jee Say. None of them are as eloquent as Vincent Wijeysingha. And Paul Tambyah has the likeability - the med school professor everybody likes. Likewise for Ang Yong Guan. Whatever else you'd like to say, these are strong candidates. Except maybe that Tan Jee Say and Ang Yong Guan is no longer with them.

SDP will be good for parliament, they'll have a lot of wonks in their ranks. If they enter parliament, the PAP will be attacked a little more than right now under the WP. Could be good, or could be bad, but it will not fail to be interesting. Of all the opposition parties, I'm sure that everyone here agrees that nobody delivers better entertainment value than SDP. Right now the question is whether they enter parliament. The SDP will or will not enter parliament based on whether people vote them in. And not based on whether some people out there think they're going in or not. The fact that they have attracted doctors, it tells you that they're going to be good in health care policy.

So let's just wait and see. Give them a chance, see if they get in in 2016. If so, then they'll survive as a viable political force. If not, Chee Soon Juan is not going to live forever.

 

[scroobal]

No one is questioning intent which is altruistic. Chee is a very poor politician who never engages the voter. When he was recently discharged from bankruptcy he headed straight for Yale. It tells you that he has not learnt anything in the last 20 years.

Ever heard of LTK heading to Yale? Are the Angmos going to vote for him? Have you been to a SDP celebratory function? Have you been to a WP celebratory function. It is as different as chalk from cheese.

I remember an incident where Jufrie opened a session by implying that Singaporeans are dumb and have no idea of politics. A young Malay chap immediately screwed Jufrie and you could see Jufrie trying to backtrack. Clearly Jufrie thought he was some superior being and the voter is a non-entity.

Please be fair to the SDP. The SDP has always fought for the bread and butter issues for Singaporeans. The important point to note is that ideology and bread and butter issues are NOT mutually exclusive. They go hand in hand. Good ideology leads to good bread and butter outcomes. It is the WP, because they do NOT have good ideology, who claim that bread and butter issues are the ONLY important issues. Come on, the SDP has to-date, put up detailed proposals on Housing, Healthcare, Population, Shadow Budget, etc. Please tell me, are these not bread and butter issues?

 

[metalmickey]

Holland Bukit Timah are 2 wards in one. I was tuning in to the news on the night of GE 2011. They counted the Bukit Timah portion of the ward first, and it looked a very close fight between the SDP and the PAP. Then the Queenstown part was counted. The PAP are smart, you see. They bundle the heartland and the district 10 together. In queenstown, you have all the old folk who have been voting PAP most of their lives.

The conundrum for the leftists is that a lot of the policies that the SDP propose will actually be of great benefit to the lower income folk. They will talk about better healthcare, they will talk about aggressively making housing affordable for the poor. But for some strange reason it will not appeal to the lower income folk. It is a puzzle that these people will tend to be more conservative. If you look at the map of America, the red (Republican) states are the ones where people with lower income live, where people listen to country music, everybody's a right winger. They don't want the government who does the best for them. Many of them believe in the face of all evidence that they really can make it on their own. That's something that SDP doesn't understand very well. Logic doesn't appeal to people that much in politics. Gut feeling is far more important.

And talking about gut feeling, it's also quite clear to me that a lot of people here in this forum have this very strong gut reaction about the SDP. They are too abstract for you, too ang moh for you, too educated for you, too red for you, maybe even too "elite" for you. So they'll all say "we're opposition but I don't think the SDP is going to succeed". But the reality is that they just don't like the SDP. The more you want to build a better world, the more idealistic you are, the less people like you. Life is like that. And maybe SDP will find this out the hard way.

 

[kingrant]

Try not to confuse liking SDP and liking Chee. One can like SDP if Chee is not around, although it is not possible to like Chee without liking SDP.

Also, try not to talk down to peasants. Just becos they didnt go for SDP/Chee doesnt mean they lack logical thinking and vote from gut feelings. Has SDP ever figured out that maybe they have a simple market logic of "why should I vote for a guy who's going to be more trouble for me than solving my problems, if I go to him in my M.P.S.?" Maybe SDP/Chee is using too much gut feel, as opposed to understanding peasants' logic?

And most of all, dont talk or even think of them in condescending terms, such as your "They are too abstract for you, too ang moh for you, too educated for you, too red for you, maybe even too "elite" for you. " Peasants, despite their inferior stock, do not like "elites" from on high, or sages on stages, preaching to them (unless you have a track record of killing dragons). They want guides by their sides to walk with them. If followers like you think likewise, havent you figured out what peasant voters abhor after 50 years of PAP?

In fact, Scroobal just cited an example of jufrie. Now, go figure.

Holland Bukit Timah are 2 wards in one. I was tuning in to the news on the night of GE 2011. They counted the Bukit Timah portion of the ward first, and it looked a very close fight between the SDP and the PAP. Then the Queenstown part was counted. The PAP are smart, you see. They bundle the heartland and the district 10 together. In queenstown, you have all the old folk who have been voting PAP most of their lives.

The conundrum for the leftists is that a lot of the policies that the SDP propose will actually be of great benefit to the lower income folk. They will talk about better healthcare, they will talk about aggressively making housing affordable for the poor. But for some strange reason it will not appeal to the lower income folk. It is a puzzle that these people will tend to be more conservative. If you look at the map of America, the red (Republican) states are the ones where people with lower income live, where people listen to country music, everybody's a right winger. They don't want the government who does the best for them. Many of them believe in the face of all evidence that they really can make it on their own. That's something that SDP doesn't understand very well. Logic doesn't appeal to people that much in politics. Gut feeling is far more important.

And talking about gut feeling, it's also quite clear to me that a lot of people here in this forum have this very strong gut reaction about the SDP. They are too abstract for you, too ang moh for you, too educated for you, too red for you, maybe even too "elite" for you. So they'll all say "we're opposition but I don't think the SDP is going to succeed". But the reality is that they just don't like the SDP. The more you want to build a better world, the more idealistic you are, the less people like you. Life is like that. And maybe SDP will find this out the hard way.