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Complex problem of low birth rate requires more than just throwing money at it

NgEjay

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
my humble 2 cents, sustainability is the crux

Very nice and comprehensive point of view, zhihau!

Your point on national identity is very important. Children are being less and less exposed to that kind of community togetherness.

The education system is also a key issue. The govt does not realize sometimes people don't want to have babies in a culture that treats children no better than child slave labourers who are supposed to churn out memorized content and other stuff according to the whim of authority figures.
 

johnny333

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I don't think it is that easy. If it was, generally the developed nations would still not be facing the same problem after all these years.


The causes of the greying population in the west is very different from Spore's low birthrate. Asian families tend to have more kids.

I know many who left Spore & they have more than 1 child.
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
... Asian families tend to have more kids ...

heheh...

you reminded me of a joke i've heard about this greying situation around the world: the angmoh likes to take it from behind, the rooskies takes anything that moves, our african brothers have the best of it, and the japanese simply loves bukakke. and Sinkies? i'm sure you know the answer. oh, by the way, the Government had just given instructions... :biggrin:
 

angry_one

Alfrescian
Loyal
All we need to do is think back to the basics. Put 2 animals in a cage and torture them, you think they'll breed??? But put them on some paradise island with plenty of food and space, i bet they'll breed colonies!
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
... All we need to do is think back to the basics. Put 2 animals in a cage and torture them, you think they'll breed??? But put them on some paradise island with plenty of food and space, i bet they'll breed colonies! ...

this calls for a song now!

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the Bloodhound Gang - The Bad Touch...
1999, Hooray for Boobies

I'd appreciate your input.

Sweat, baby, sweat. Baby, sex is a Texas drought
Me and you do the kind of stuff that only Prince would sing about
So put your hands down my pants and I'll bet you'll feel nuts
Yes I'm Siskel, yes I'm Ebert and you're getting two thumbs up
You've had enough of two-hand touch, you want it rough, you're out of bounds
I want you smothered, want you covered, like my Waffle House hashbrowns
Come quicker than FedEx, never reach an apex, just like Coca-Cola stock you are inclined
To make me rise an hour early just like Daylight Savings Time

Chorus:
Do it now
You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
Do it again now
You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
Gettin' horny now

Love the kind you clean up with a mop and bucket
Like the lost catacombs of Egypt, only God knows where we stuck it
Hieroglyphics? Let me be Pacific, I wanna be down in your South Seas
But I got this notion that the motion of your ocean means "Small Craft Advisory"
So if I capsize on your thighs high tide, B-5 you sunk my battleship
Please turn me on, I'm Mister Coffee with an automatic drip
So show me yours, I'll show you mine, "Tool Time" you'll Lovett just like Lyle
And then we'll do it doggy style so we can both watch "X-Files"

repeat chorus.
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Bro,

Perhaps I digress, but why is the "low birth rate" issue such a critical one in most if not all western developed first world democracies? No doubt what you raised in "ii" are good conditions for a nation, however does this directly address the "low birth rate" issue? Is there a direct correlation? I am not sure. I for one would be curious to know whether the Singaporeans who emigrated to 'greener pastures' have also succumbed to the 'affluent disease' of low procreation?

my humble 2 cents,

sustainability is the crux:

i. where population is concerned, the populace must find it favorable for them to reproduce.

ii. favorable conditions for the Citizens meant the following:
1. Citizens are treated as first class peoples, provided they behave like one.
2. Citizens are not being treated as serfs, as they already are.
3. Citizens are paid their dues, provided they deserve it.
4. Citizens being able to retire with grace, and not slogging past 65.
5. Citizens being able to have enough quality family time.
6. Citizens being empowered with true ownership and responsibility.

one burning question thou': does the Government plan to continue to develop her Citizens as serfs/economic digits for their coffers or as Citizens of this Republic? :biggrin:
 

Porfirio Rubirosa

Alfrescian
Loyal
Stress is but one factor. To me I think the key overriding factor may well be the Individualism/Libertarian factor, the "ME" factor which now appears to be gender neutral which exacerbates the situation even more.

no doubt there's a global trend of a greying nation for most developed nations, they all have a common trait, the stress level. and why do you need that growing population? to fuel the economy? :biggrin:
 

Hans168

Alfrescian
Loyal
Sadly this gahmen only knows how to takeaway lots of money from the masses & throwaway recklessly.............incl into their own pockets!
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
Bro,

... I for one would be curious to know whether the Singaporeans who emigrated to 'greener pastures' have also succumbed to the 'affluent disease' of low procreation? ...

... Stress is but one factor. To me I think the key overriding factor may well be the Individualism/Libertarian factor, the "ME" factor which now appears to be gender neutral which exacerbates the situation even more ...

my humble 2 cents again,

from a biological point of view, a lower birth rate isn't exactly a bad issue altogether, it merely translates to higher chance of promoting the survival of the species due to limitation of nutrients in that specific environment, or some might say it was due to a lack of resources that the species were unable to reproduce. we could rule out the latter as our species, 6 billion strong and growing, are still having decent amount of food.

on why the lower birth rate is causing much alarm in the first world nations, i thought that it would result in the following: that the natives doesn't produce enough, down a generation or two, the society would have to support a larger group of elderly, and entire economy would be hanging by a thread. i don't think any Government would exactly want a nation full of immigrants and with only a small pool of natives. policy formation would be a pain, the nation could simply be at the brink of a collapse.

to depend on immigrants to fill those vacuum, you'd risk increasing the stress level of the natives thus resulting in a vicious cycle, and you end up with a nation of immigrants. not too bad if some of the immigrants would take roots and allow their off-springs to grow up in the new environment, but human are social animals after all. a pretty sad thing they failed to realize we all belong to the same species called Homo sapiens.

the points i've raised in "ii", would at least give provisions for more perks in being a Citizen of any particular nation, thus providing better conditions for the Citizens, in hope to make them feel comfortable enough to at least start reproducing. humans are living beings, they react to external environment; and the funny thing about the economy is that: the perceived value of any tangible item is more often not the actual value, and most of the time, the former is always higher.

you can't cheat the biological system, if the dynamics is such whereby the folks feel it's unfavorable to reproduce, they simply wouldn't. that's the stress factor i was having in mind. and as a biological system, you can really blame folks who keep their nomadic lifestyle of searching for greener pastures. that real fact is that folks want to make love and have babies, only the perceived conditions ain't favorable :biggrin:

folks in poverty-stricken areas operate on another function altogether, where they would employ another reproduction strategy to ensure their survival. producing more and more and hoping one of them can make it to reproduce the next generation, and we can't fault them for that. Life will always find its way.

a libertarian simply entails the notion that the individual believes in individual rights with minimal intrusions from Government policies if i'm not mistaken, so i don't think it has any bearings on child bearing altogether. Individualism on the other hand might be a better term, where the individual becomes self centred, looking only after his/her own needs and not giving a flying fuck about the others.

but i draw your attention once again to the point that we are still human after all. if that individual grows to become more self centred, it is still the doings of the society, where families are becoming more nucleated in the developed nations, and the young ones doesn't really grow up in an environment that mimics our not-too-distant past. Individualism is simply a by-product of the nucleation of family groups.

you reap what you sow when the conditions are right, and that's the way it always has been. the exponential phase would soon proceed to plateau phase, which i think most developed nations are fast moving into this phase, and unless our species come to realize that we are in fact one and the same, that we need to look out for one another... but heck, we have the selfish gene :biggrin:
 

ah rat

Alfrescian
Loyal
During '70 the PAP party ask the young couple not to settle to early,if u do not have stable income.
Stop at 2,if not there will not enough to land to built HDB. :mad:
 

kakowi

Alfrescian
Loyal
The government should also convert the women charter into a family charter.

In the midst of their policies, the high divorce rate and its implications on children and the father are not considered.

It is however well-considered for the mother. That is good. It is now time to consider the children and their father.
 

kiwibird7

Alfrescian
Loyal
In all honesty, what does the PAP really want?

Won't an uncontrolled surge of baby production just lead to an increase of population that can only do low skilled jobs which foreign labour or other 3rd world countries can do at an even cheaper rate.

Can the the PAP accept an untoward side effect of their policy; namely a racial imbalance caused by an over-zealous reproduction by one ethnic group? What then? A Rethink, U Turn, an honest mistake yet again?

Tax breaks would not entice the high flying career woman to impede here glowing career opportunities just to raise the fertility rates. S'pore Income top tax rates are already low by 1st world country standards, the tax savings/rebates are therefore really nothing to shout about for them.

The couple of $ from those tax rebates would be significant for those low income earners where every $ counts.

They may procreate enthusiastically but can their offsprings be the quality that can learn high calibre skills or merely add to the social burden of more lowly skilled unemployable workers?

Given the high cost of living in S'pore, even 3 siblings won't be able to afford to provide any financial assistance or have any time to look after their aged/infirmed parents because they themselves would be struggling to live from hand to mouth, moonlighting in 2 lowly paid jobs.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Maybe we need to ask ourselves what the challenges are of raising a child in Singapore.

Here are some novel and not so novel factors;
  • The car or the child
  • even if the brand new school is in front of your doorstep, you will not be guaranteed a place unlike school zoning assuarnce like in OZ
  • 2 parents have to work to buy house.
  • Having a maid is a challenge - all liability is on you including if she goes mad
  • i doubt if my kids can compete with elites in RJC, so no point
  • if I have a kid, must have tuition, no time, so no point
  • abortion so easy, just turn up at Govt hospital
  • my kid go to school and FT kid who is older also in same class
  • if I become pregnant, might lose my place at work, my promotion, etc
  • all the pigeon holes are getting smaller, so no space

    Do add on, silly or otherwise.
 

Ramseth

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I don't see a low birth rate as a problem. It's only a problem for egositic politicans who more people to rule with more GDP to show off and tax on. If there's a high birth rate, then I worry.
 
Last edited:

NgEjay

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Why do you guys worry if there is a high birth rate?

Wouldn't this then mean the govt will have no excuse to import so many FTs that take away jobs for the working class and lower income groups?
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
I don't see a low birth rate as a problem. It's only a problem for egositic politicans who more people to rule with more GDP to show off and tax on. If there's a high birth rate, then I worry.

i agree with this fully :wink:

I don't think anyone is looking for a high birth rate or am I missing something. I thought everyone is looking for a replacement rate for the following reasons

  • so that younger generation does not have to support the elderly on a narrow base
  • to maintain reasonable growth and advances
  • to reduce FT intake and the consequent social displacement issues.

Seems to be a superflous comment when the issue is low birth rate.
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
... Seems to be a superflous comment when the issue is low birth rate ...

i thought it would be better to allow the population's growth to self-regulate rather than to create another facilitated "baby-boom" :biggrin:
 
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