• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Serious Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too much

Slim_10_Sg

Alfrescian
Loyal
Officially known now, expensive and problematic F-35 (about 80 units ordered originally) is ditched by Canada and they prefer to go for older F-18, saved $$$ and faster delivery and less fucking technical problems!




https://news.vice.com/article/canada-may-become-the-first-country-to-ditch-the-f-35-fighter-jet

[h=1]Canada may become the first country to ditch the F-35 fighter jet[/h]

By Justin Ling
July 26, 2016 |
If newly-obtained documents are any indication, Canada may become the first country to scrap its order for the American F-35 fighter jet, the most expensive weapons program ever. Letters sent to the big industry players are just further evidence that the government of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau is set to pull the trigger on a whole new open competition to pick Canada's next generation of fighter jet.
That competition will likely favour an out-of-the-box jet, over the expensive F-35.
Industry sources confirmed that the government set up meetings with big-name players in the aerospace industry in recent weeks to figure out its next steps in buying a new fighter jet — this, even though it's technically already on the hook to buy 65 of the F-35 Lightning II jets, manufactured by Lockheed Martin.
Those face-to-face meetings took place with representatives from two US companies: Boeing, Lockheed Martin itself; Sweden's Saab; the French Dassault; and the European multinational consortium Eurofighter. All of them make fighters that, while less advanced than the stealthy F-35, are vastly cheaper.

The meetings follow a 38-page questionnaire, provided to VICE News, which was sent to the five industry players, asking them to lay out the pros and cons of their jets.
Related: Here's What the US and Its Allies Can Do With Their New F-35s

This inquiry is likely the first step in what promises to be a protracted competition to choose a warplane to replace the current fleet of 79 CF-188 Hornets, a version of the American F-18, that Canada bought in the 1980s. Those jets, the letter notes, "should have been replaced years ago"
"The Government of Canada remains committed to building a more agile, better-equipped military, while ensuring best value for Canadians," reads a letter sent to the companies that accompanied the questionnaire.
Pulling out of the international consortium to build the F-35 program — which dates back to 1998 and includes the United States, United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Australia, and others — could be costly for the remaining partners, and may force some of the smaller states to reconsider their participation. The total cost of the program for Canada is pegged at some $25 billion, over the life of the jets. The full cost of the procurement is virtually impossible to pin down, but it is estimated that the full life-cycle cost for the US' nearly 2,500 planes could hit $1.5 trillion.
canada-may-become-the-first-country-to-ditch-the-f-35-fighter-jet-body-image-1469551774.jpg

The F/A-18 Super Hornet. (Boeing)
While the document stresses that "no decision has been made at this time and all procurement options are being considered," those in the industry who have obtained the letter say it likely means that Ottawa will start from scratch and force a whole new competition for the jets.
Ottawa isn't wasting time. The letters, sent July 7, have a due date of July 29 for the submission of proposals.
A spokesperson for the Department of National Defense wouldn't comment on the letters, but indicated that they would be posted publicly next week.
Related: What Is the Pentagon's Multi-Billion Dollar F-35 Jet Actually Supposed to Do?

If Canada does go back to the drawing board, it could be bad news for the international F-35 program, which has been beset by one problem after another. According to a March 2016 report, its software remained buggy. It shook mid-flight. Its diagnostics system had trouble figuring out what needs repair, and what doesn't.
Those problems, Lockheed Martin contends, have been put to bed. The company expects to announce that the planes are fully operational in US service — with all the kinks worked out — by the end of summer.
No country has, thus far, pulled out entirely from the consortium, despite heated political debates in some countries that have chosen the F-35.
Since their election in October, the Liberals have been been paralyzed on what to do about the procurement process.
In their official platform, Trudeau's party swore: "We will not buy the F-35 stealth fighter-bomber." Their plan was to reopen the competition process, rip up the sole-sourced contract to Lockheed Martin, and exclude the F-35 altogether.
canada-may-become-the-first-country-to-ditch-the-f-35-fighter-jet-body-image-1469552423.jpg

The Rafale. (Dassault Aviation - S. Randé)
Trudeau's team has been more equivocal since taking office. The letters that were sent out in early July certainly suggest that Lockheed Martin will be allowed to participate in the process.
If Canada does back out, it could spell two big problems: it could raise costs for the remaining partners, since they will be spread out over fewer overall planes, and it could lead to other smaller partners to back out as well — which, in turn, could increase costs.
There are already a few weak links in the consortium.
In Australia, currently on the hook to buy 72 of the planes, objections have been raised as well since Trudeau's election in October. An analyst with independent think tank Air Power Australia, which had long been critical of the F-35, told an Australian Senate committee earlier this year that the plane was a "jackass of all trades and masterful of none," and compared the entire procurement process to a Ponzi scheme.
Italy, also a big customer and most importantly one of the two countries outside the US that will assemble the plane, is still planning to buy the jets, although it scaled back its acquisition by 30 percent. The Norwegian military, which plans to buy 52, has also openly mused about cutting its purchase, thanks to a stagnant economy.
Related: The Incredibly Expensive F-35 May Look Cool, But Does it Actually Work?

Part of the deal with the consortium, meant to offset the staggering costs of the acquisition, was to expand research, development, and upkeep across all partners. Each country would have a chance to vie for contracts and maintenance with the planes, meaning that buying the planes could come with huge economic benefits. But as costs continue to rise, the allure of manufacturing jobs has become less and less attractive.
Lockheed Martin does have an insurance policy to keep countries in the consortium: Jobs. The massive American defense company has publicly said that, should Canada withdraw, it could lose 10,000 job opportunities to develop, maintain, and repair the aircraft.
The questionnaire sent to industry appears to acknowledge this potential headache.
"Please describe the potential opportunities for Canadian companies to be integrated into the production supply chain of this aircraft," the questionnaire asks prospective suppliers. "Could these opportunities extend to the global supply for future sales of this aircraft? Please explain. Are there future opportunities for Canadian companies to participate in the development of upgrades on the current aircraft and/or developmental opportunities related to a new version of the aircraft?"
Canada's likely alternative is the more practical F/A-18 Super Hornet — an upgraded model of Canada's current fleet of fighter jets — manufactured by Boeing. Sources have already said that the Trudeau government would be looking to buy a number of Super Hornets while they figure out whether to stick with the F-35, or go elsewhere; Australia made a similar move during its procurement process.
The questionnaire certainly hints that the Super Hornet could be an ideal replacement for their aging predecessor.
"If the current CF-18 gun ammunition, deployable countermeasures (e.g. chaff/flares), missiles and bombs, are incompatible with the new aircraft this item should include the cost of an initial stock of such items," the introduction to the questionnaire reads.

canada-may-become-the-first-country-to-ditch-the-f-35-fighter-jet-body-image-1469551941.jpg

The Eurofigher Typhoon. (Copyright: Eurofighter)
If Canada purchases some F/A-18s in the interim, it's deeply unlikely that it would go on to buy the F-35s as well, as it would require a whole different set of trained personnel, equipment and weaponry, which could bring higher costs.
But the letter provided with the questionnaire hints at the government doing exactly that — citing a perceived "capability gap" — telling prospective manufacturers that "new aircraft must be acquired as soon as possible so Canada can remain a credible and dependable ally."
Those in the industry have balked at the idea that this gap exists at all. Canadian CF-18 jets had been used in the bombing campaign in Iraq and Syria, regularly participate in exercises in Eastern Europe, and are regularly used to patrol the arctic. Life-extending measures will mean those jets will be usable well after the delivery date of whichever aircraft Canada chooses to buy.
Harjit Singh Sajjan, Canada's defense minister, has, nevertheless, liberally employed that talking point as of late, saying that the country needs to move quickly — but not, evidently, on the F-35.
Canada's current fleet of jets, however, will remain operational at least until 2023. Even factoring in some delays, the F-35s are expected to be delivered by 2020, though Lockheed Martin contends that if Canada really wants them sooner, it could work out a deal to have the jets delivered within 18 months.
On top of this, the F/A-18 is simply a less capable aircraft. The technological argument for the F-35, whatever its drawbacks, is pretty solid.
And when this journalist sat in the cockpits of the flight simulators for each jet, there was no competition — the F-35 was easier to control, easier to shoot, and more maneuverable. In the industry, there's no question: the F-35 is the better jet.
Related: Man Who Sold F-35 Secrets to China Pleads Guilty

But Boeing has marketed the F-18 more as a minivan than a Ferrari, highlighting its stability, cost, and reliability — for example, it has two engines as opposed to the F-35's single one, a big plus over the vast expanses of Canada's North where an engine failure could spell doom.
"It's difficult to imagine a better value proposition," Roberto Valla, Boeing's Vice President of Global Sales for Canada, told a room of journalists at a defense show in Ottawa earlier in 2016.
A statement from Boeing, provided to VICE News, contends that "We believe the Super Hornet is the best fit for Canada, with low acquisition and sustainment costs, advanced capabilities, and economic benefits for Canadian industry, building on Boeing's $6 billion in direct contracts with Canadian companies over the past five years alone."
A Boeing representative previously admitted that, should Ottawa go for the F/A-18, it would not necessarily come with any direct economic benefit to Canada.
canada-may-become-the-first-country-to-ditch-the-f-35-fighter-jet-body-image-1469551833.jpg

The Gripen E (Saab)
The other options are less likely candidates. There's the Eurofighter Typhoon, a plane that's been in service for more than a decade with a handful of NATO states and others. Then there's the Dassault Rafale, used by France and ordered by a small number of Middle Eastern states. The Saab Gripen, a smaller one-engined fighter, is currently deployed by the air forces of nations like Sweden and Hungary.
Ultimately, those are all unlikely candidates for heavy-lifting NATO partners like Canada. Ricardo Traven, chief test pilot for the F/A-18 Super Hornet, said the competition is really between the F-35 and the F/A-18. The others? "We kind of squash them," he said.
The Gripen, for example — "we're not even in the same class," Traven said. "It is, to me, a toy."
Boeing says it is welcoming the open competition, confident that it is the cheapest of the two options. Lockheed Martin, meanwhile, hopes that Ottawa will stick to the precedent of other nations and eventually choose to stick with the Lightning.
Follow Justin Ling on Twitter: @Justin_Ling
 

Slim_10_Sg

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...rnet-over-f-35-will-just-keep-canada-grounded


[h=1]Hawn: Choosing Super Hornet over F-35 will just keep Canada grounded[/h]
avatar
Laurie Hawn

Published on: February 28, 2017 | Last Updated: February 28, 2017 12:11 PM EST

2Q==
(FILES) This file photo taken on July 12, 2016 shows a Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II taking part in a flying display at the Farnborough Airshow, south west of London. Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon on February 3, 2017 said the next batch of F-35 stealth fighters, the most expensive planes in history, will be produced at a reduced cost. They announced $728 million in savings after President Donald Trump publically upbraided Lockheed over "out of control" costs, although most of the savings were already planned ahead of his involvement, during a months-long contract negotiation. / ADRIAN DENNIS / AFP/Getty Images
Share Adjust Comment Print
“Per Ardua Ad Dis-Astra.” This altered RCAF motto sums up what the federal the government’s convoluted process to buy 18 “interim” Super Hornets to fill a “capability gap” really means. It will kill Canada’s fighter force.
Everything can be traced to the prime minister’s election campaign promise to never buy the F-35 fighter jet, allegedly because it is too expensive and doesn’t work.
His conclusions are being proven wrong, but he seems determined to proceed without a timely competition, thanks to a politically created “capability gap.” That gap was based on aircraft numbers that have never been demanded simultaneously; by fudging actual CF-18 operational serviceability history; and by the false narrative that the CF-18 cannot keep operating until we start getting new aircraft.
Any imagined gap, however, could be filled by 27 available Kuwaiti F-18C/D aircraft for $330 million US. Or, we could upgrade our entire fleet of 76 CF-18s to close to Super Hornet systems status for about 20 per cent of what we’ll pay for 18 Super Hornets. Neither option was explored.
We don’t have technicians and support capacity for today. Eighteen Super Hornets will cost about $7 billion Cdn and add 350 non-existent personnel and Super Hornet-specific infrastructure. We are already losing pilots to voluntary release at rates we can’t re-generate, and we certainly don’t have extras for the Super Hornet.
Many real experts were never consulted, and 240 were forced to sign lifetime non-disclosure agreements, which hides the truth. The Auditor General, the Ethics Commissioner and the Parliamentary Budget Officer should take an interest.
Competitions don’t take five years, and to satisfy everyone, we need to start one immediately. Denmark did one quickly, and Canada already has a (now suppressed) options analysis that points to the F-35. As in the past, the F-35 will win any competition not rigged against it.
The Super Hornet is a fine aircraft for its roles and time, but we need a fighter for projected threats into the 2050s. The Super Hornet also has a thorny safety issue in its oxygen system, which has resulted in 297 incidents and permanent grounding for some aircrews.
One argument that doesn’t stand up is that the F-35 doesn’t work. Its operational development continues and in every exercise where F-35 participates, its effectiveness is very evident. In our own primary aim of air sovereignty, the F-35’s clean configuration will allow it to conduct higher-altitude intercepts that the Super Hornet cannot.
Another argument that doesn’t stand up is cost. The latest cost for the F-35A is $8.5 billion US for 90 aircraft, or $94.6 million per aircraft. But as predicted, that cost will continue to decrease and in 2020, when we should start receiving our aircraft, it will be about $85 Million. The F-35 is cheaper than the Super Hornet.
The Super Hornet will not be interim. Even if the F-35 were to win a competition, we would suddenly realize that we can’t afford two small fleets, due to duplication of everything. That will apply to the Super Hornet and CF-18, and assuredly to the Super Hornet and F-35. The Aussies are doing it, but we are not them, and we would be stuck buying more Super Hornets.
Canadian aerospace industries, jobs and the economy will also be losers on our current path. We will lose out on billions in contracts and be out of step with future technology. This will be an industry-killing Avro Arrow redux and/or a costly Sea King redux.
We cannot afford to continue on the current path for many reasons: Canadian sovereignty and security, taxpayers, technical, personnel, moral, commonality with allies and Canadian industry. I have received virtually unanimous support for my position, most importantly from members of the RCAF at all rank levels.
Lt.-Col. (Retired) Hon. Laurie Hawn, PC, CD is a former RCAF CF-18 Squadron Commander and member of Parliament.

Reevely: We aren't checking whether billions in infrastructure spending is any...
 

Slim_10_Sg

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a24012/canada-f-18-order/


Canada Buys New F-18s After Canceling Its Order for the F-35

The Great White North selects the F/A-18 Super Hornet as an interim fighter jet.



Most Popular



blank.png







By Kyle Mizokami
Nov 22, 2016









The Canadian government has announced plans to acquire F/A-18E/F Super Hornet multi-role fighters. Ottawa wants to secure a modest number of the jets until it decides on a real replacement for its current fleet of legacy Hornet fighters—which won't be the F-35.
During the 1980s, Canada bought 138 CF-18 Hornets (its designation for the Boeing F/A-18A Hornet). Canadian CF-18s flew combat missions in the Persian Gulf War, NATO operations in the former Yugoslavia, Libya, and most recently over Iraq against the Islamic State. Despite modest upgrades, however, such as the ability to carry the beyond visual range AMRAAM missile, Joint Directed Attack Munition satellite-guided bombs and Link 16 data communications, the planes are increasingly outdated.
The previous Canadian administration had the country lined up to buy the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, but current Prime Minister Justin Trudeau vowed as part of his election campaign to cancel the purchase on the grounds a real competition hadn't taken place and that such an expensive fighter was unnecessary. True to his word, Trudeau canceled Canada's planned purchase of the F-35 and announced a new, open competition for a permanent replacement would be forthcoming.
blank.png






The new plan is for Canada to acquire 18 F/A-18 Super Hornets as a stopgap measure until the permanent replacement fighter is announced. The government press release doesn't use the words "purchase" or "buy", saying they will be used "for an interim period of time". That leaves open the possibility the jets will be leased from Boeing.
Related Story



Boeing Asks Denmark to Buy F-18s Instead of F-35s




The Super Hornet is a practical replacement for the CF-18 Hornet. The "Super Bug" is bigger, with a longer range and greater weapons payload than the CF-18. Although not as stealthy as the F-35, the Super Hornet was designed with some radar cross reduction features that make it more difficult for enemy radar to detect. The improved Hornet also has a high level of commonality with older Hornets, particularly weapons and the engine, meaning Canadian air crews will get up to speed on it quicker than a brand-new plane.
Canada's new interim fighter could even be the new Advanced Super Hornet currently being marketed by Boeing to India. The improved design includes an infra-red search and track sensor for air-to-air and air-to-ground combat, conformal fuel tanks that sit above the wings, and an enclosed weapons pod designed to hide bombs and missiles in a stealthy enclosure to reduce their radar signature.
blank.png





A F/A-18F Super Hornet refuels a F/A-18C Hornet in midair. U.S. Navy photo.


How would Canada use 18 new Super Hornets? The new jets would be more survivable over modern battlefields, especially against Russian air defenses. The new planes could also be paired with older jets, their newer APG-79 active electronically scanned array radars scanning ahead for aerial threats instead of the older radars on current CF-18. The APG-79 has a lower probability of intercept, making it harder for enemy radar warning receivers to detect. The Super Hornets could then share data with the CF-18s through the Link 16 system. One last benefit to Canada: the Super Hornet could be used as an aerial tanker for CF-18s, extending their range.
This interim acquisition just kicks the can a little bit down the road. Canada still needs at least one hundred new fighters, and it needs them very soon. The Super Hornet seems to be the frontrunner, but don't count the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter out yet. As the plane continues to mature it's looking to be the plane Lockheed Martin has promised it will be, and per-unit costs are dropping to the point where the plane is becoming a serious competitor to the Super Hornet.



More from Popular Mechanics:
 

Mohd_Ah_LEE

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

[video=youtube_share;C1iaTJGCDY0]https://youtu.be/C1iaTJGCDY0[/video]
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

Its a good decision. Unless the US decide to re-open the F-22 production line, then switch to F-22 Raptor.
 

Slim_10_Sg

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

Its a good decision. Unless the US decide to re-open the F-22 production line, then switch to F-22 Raptor.

F-22 even more expensive and useless. It is a larger version with twin engine but nearly same technology as F-35, claiming stealth but untruly. Their basic aerial performance : speed ceiling range payload are all REDUCED from previous generation as a Huge Compromise to achieve so called Stealth. But New Radars from Chinese & Russian forces can see them anyway and use new missiles to shoot them away from distance - cheaply.

USA had gone completely wrong about countering radars, they should instead of attempting so call stealth, just locate and destroy radars or jam them like mad using drone what so ever. Cheaper and much more effective.
 

congo9

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

F-22 even more expensive and useless. It is a larger version with twin engine but nearly same technology as F-35, claiming stealth but untruly. Their basic aerial performance : speed ceiling range payload are all REDUCED from previous generation as a Huge Compromise to achieve so called Stealth. But New Radars from Chinese & Russian forces can see them anyway and use new missiles to shoot them away from distance - cheaply.

USA had gone completely wrong about countering radars, they should instead of attempting so call stealth, just locate and destroy radars or jam them like mad using drone what so ever. Cheaper and much more effective.

Oh Yes. i am very impressed with your idea.
Use drone to Jam all radar , forget about Stealth. invest in bigger and better missile that can fly 10 time speed of sound and can be fired from Aeroplane. The whole thinking and Philosophy must change with time.

Time to leave the old thinking behind.
 

mojito

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

Canada going broke! Next to be cut, public healthcare benefits and staff. Will dr nay return and praise the PAP? :confused
 

Slim_10_Sg

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

Canada going broke! Next to be cut, public healthcare benefits and staff. Will dr nay return and praise the PAP? :confused

Canada is not even a quarter as broke as USA, who is world #1 desperate beggar and bankrupt with Highest Debt of the world. If no arms sales USA will be even worse bankrupted.
 

Slim_10_Sg

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

Oh Yes. i am very impressed with your idea.
Use drone to Jam all radar , forget about Stealth. invest in bigger and better missile that can fly 10 time speed of sound and can be fired from Aeroplane. The whole thinking and Philosophy must change with time.

Time to leave the old thinking behind.

There is an obvious mistake to compromise the 4 fundamental aircraft performance factors for the lame fancy gimmick idea of Stealth.





  • [*]Speed
  • Ceiling (altitude)
  • Range
  • Payload (ammo / bomb / missile)


These are the basic purposes of an aircraft and factors of survival in a war, live and death difference these will make. Win or lose factors.

Detection and Counter-Detection is another auxiliary game, which you may optionally play, but WITHOUT compromised fundamentals. In the whole past of aerial combat history, there had been ace planes that enemies can not kill, because:

They fly too FAST, faster than enemies planes could chase, faster than gunners could aim, faster than missile could catch, hence enjoy strategic advantage (e.g. when supersonic 1st emerged) (e.g. SR-71)
They fly too HIGH than enemies planes could reach, AA guns could reach, missiles could reach (e.g. U-1, SR-71, MiG-25 MACH=3.2)

If there is a 5th key factor to add to the 4 basics, it would be Agility / Maneuverability / High G-turns & Abrupt acceleration & deceleration, these factors firmly helps the aircrafts to survive from missiles and forced missiles to miss them. (e.g. SU-35 could hold stationary vertically and flip and turn in many IMPOSSIBLE ways)

If there is a 6th key factor to add further, it would be related to the agility, but terrain following avoidance, allowing it to fly very close to ground terrain, at tree top and roof top heights, or between buildings and trees, it is an ability to be Stealth to radar, avoid detection, avoid tracking, and dodge missiles which are trying to kill them. The better ability to do this, would force the others in pursuit to kill it, to hit terrain or ground or buildings. Read this for more details.

https://defenseissues.net/2013/08/17/evading-air-to-air-missile/
 

Papsmearer

Alfrescian (InfP) - Comp
Generous Asset
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

F-22 even more expensive and useless. It is a larger version with twin engine but nearly same technology as F-35, claiming stealth but untruly. Their basic aerial performance : speed ceiling range payload are all REDUCED from previous generation as a Huge Compromise to achieve so called Stealth. But New Radars from Chinese & Russian forces can see them anyway and use new missiles to shoot them away from distance - cheaply.

USA had gone completely wrong about countering radars, they should instead of attempting so call stealth, just locate and destroy radars or jam them like mad using drone what so ever. Cheaper and much more effective.

How have the US gone wrong countering radar. The last few wars they fought showed it was the right approach. In Gulf War 1 and 2, the iraqi radars (extensive network of russian design) never saw the F-117 coming. Stealth is the right way and has been proven so. The russians and chinese are designing and flying stealth aircraft. Why would they do that and spend $ billions if stealth was no good. And finally, drones can be intercepted, which the Iranians did with a US drone. They hacked the data downlink and took the drone over. Its weakness is its software.
 

Slim_10_Sg

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

How have the US gone wrong countering radar. The last few wars they fought showed it was the right approach. In Gulf War 1 and 2, the iraqi radars (extensive network of russian design) never saw the F-117 coming. Stealth is the right way and has been proven so. The russians and chinese are designing and flying stealth aircraft. Why would they do that and spend $ billions if stealth was no good. And finally, drones can be intercepted, which the Iranians did with a US drone. They hacked the data downlink and took the drone over. Its weakness is its software.

Russian & Chinese only made their 5th Gen warplanes flies FASTER, HIGHER, FURTHER & more PAYLOAD than their own 3rd & 4th Gen warplanes. Especially Russian does not bother too much about being very small in radar reflection images i.e. SU-57, instead, they had emphasis on ultra-menuverabitliy. No compromise on all fundamental flight performance characteristics. Chinese from J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16, J-20, J-31 had been all increasing fundamental flight performance characteristics, i.e. Speed, Altitude, Range, Payload.

Iraq & Afghan have MOST PATHETIC Air Forces & Air Defense and ANY junk warplanes can BULLY THEM ANY WHICH WAY THEY LIKED. There is COMPLETELY NO REFERENCE VALUES to prove any Technology of being useful or useless. These wars are far from taking any advantage from so called stealth. Afghanistan Taliban has absolutely no air force nor a single radar! Old Bush bombed Iraq beginning with thousands of Tomahawk cruise missiles (@US$1.5 million) instead of using so called stealth to take out the old and weak Iraqi air defense. Iraqi air defense was already almost useless during Iran-Iraq wars.

F-117 had been shot down and since USAF gave it up.

Today USAF and ALL ALLIES are suckers LOSER lost on so called STEALTH DEFEATS.

Compared with F-15, F-15 & F-18, the F-22 & F-35 are TOO UNRELIABLE, PROBLEMATIC & LOW PATHETIC FLIGHT PERFORMANCE, and enjoy No Stealth Advantage against Cheaply Exported Chinese Radars & Missiles not to say about Russians. F-22 & F-35 are lame ducks for the hunters guns.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

I agree with TS, the Chinese got the important factors down pat.

Do remember that it was the Chinese who defeated the Germans and Japanese and rescued the World. They were also the architect of Operation Overlord and the Battle of Midway.

The Chinese also launched the world first nuclear aircraft career, the Apple computer, the operating system that powers technology across the World and their Universities are World class that everyone heads to China for their education.

When 40 million Chinese died during Mao's era American propaganda blamed it on famine but the 40 million Chinese died saving the World by fighting aliens together with Sigourney Weaver. By the way she is actually Chinese and her name is correctly spelled as See Goh Nee.

If you look all around you, nearly all the commercial airlines use Chinese aircraft, Modern medicine and hospitals use Chinese based medical practices, construction standards again was first setup by the Chinese. Nearly everything in your house come come from Chinese innovation and it started with the gunpowder. If you look closely at Chinese fighter aircraft or for that matter anything that they make, they look like those you see in the West. Clearly the West has been copying things wholesale. Shame on them.

The only thing the Chinese are not good at is prostitution. You will never see a Chinese whore in any capital around the World.

The only other civilisation that is close to the Chinese for their contribution to the World is India. Both are centuries are old. You should sit down and hear the Indians and Chinese talk about their innovations, their achievements etc. It will be mind boggling stuff. If you are not taken to the core, I will eat my hat.

Yes, Stealth is BS. Remember the Boxer Rebellion where Chinese heroes instead of taking cover exposed themselves to western bullets. Thats why they know that stealth is bullshit. They have since followed Jackie Chan where when you want to fight, you must be able to fly around the room doing incredible stunts.

By the way, no one here has challenged the TS until now. That should have been a powerful hint.

How have the US gone wrong countering radar. The last few wars they fought showed it was the right approach. In Gulf War 1 and 2, the iraqi radars (extensive network of russian design) never saw the F-117 coming. Stealth is the right way and has been proven so. The russians and chinese are designing and flying stealth aircraft. Why would they do that and spend $ billions if stealth was no good. And finally, drones can be intercepted, which the Iranians did with a US drone. They hacked the data downlink and took the drone over. Its weakness is its software.
 
Last edited:

condom_loong

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

[video=youtube_share;r2jJKGrQ_vI]https://youtu.be/r2jJKGrQ_vI[/video]


[video=youtube_share;O65OxygXiAQ]https://youtu.be/O65OxygXiAQ[/video]
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

Forgot to mention that China also discovered radar. It is believed that their latest generation radar model TBS can even pick up enemy aircraft when they are physically not present.
 

maxsanic

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

Arms hypothetical comparisons are completely meaningless - everyone can postulate whatever theories they want and there is no credible way to test their validity empirically unless serious war breaks out. Inevitably all such discussions will descend into emotional m&d slinging devoid of any value.

All that the public knows for sure is that to date the world has only 3 models of 5th generation stealth fighters in operation, i.e. F22, F35 (US) and J20 (China). 2 other models SU57 (Russia) and J31 (China) are in prototype stage and will likely be operational in the near future. Out of the 3 countries mentioned above, 1 is a global arms superpower, 1 is an upcoming superpower challenger while the remaining 1 though weaker these days has a history of credible fighter development track record.

I would think the myriad of brilliant R&D minds in these 3 countries have better credibility on the subject of stealth then forum posts or youtube videos made by unknown online personas.
 

Slim_10_Sg

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

Arm...

All that the public knows for sure is that to date the world has only 3 models of 5th generation stealth fighters in operation, i.e. F22, F35 (US) and J20 (China). 2 other models SU57 (Russia) and J31 (China) are in prototype stage and will likely be operational in the near future. Out of the 3 countries mentioned above, 1 is a global arms superpower, 1 is an upcoming superpower challenger while the remaining 1 though weaker these days has a history of credible fighter development track record.
....

H-20 the strategic 5th Gen PLA long range bomber is coming this year, plus couple of extremely niche drones, and another carrier based 5.5Gen aircraft of high performance.
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

[video=youtube;ba63OVl1MHw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba63OVl1MHw[/video]
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...rnet-over-f-35-will-just-keep-canada-grounded


[h=1]Hawn: Choosing Super Hornet over F-35 will just keep Canada grounded[/h]
avatar
Laurie Hawn

Published on: February 28, 2017 | Last Updated: February 28, 2017 12:11 PM EST

2Q==
(FILES) This file photo taken on July 12, 2016 shows a Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II taking part in a flying display at the Farnborough Airshow, south west of London. Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon on February 3, 2017 said the next batch of F-35 stealth fighters, the most expensive planes in history, will be produced at a reduced cost. They announced $728 million in savings after President Donald Trump publically upbraided Lockheed over "out of control" costs, although most of the savings were already planned ahead of his involvement, during a months-long contract negotiation. / ADRIAN DENNIS / AFP/Getty Images
Share Adjust Comment Print
“Per Ardua Ad Dis-Astra.” This altered RCAF motto sums up what the federal the government’s convoluted process to buy 18 “interim” Super Hornets to fill a “capability gap” really means. It will kill Canada’s fighter force.
Everything can be traced to the prime minister’s election campaign promise to never buy the F-35 fighter jet, allegedly because it is too expensive and doesn’t work.
His conclusions are being proven wrong, but he seems determined to proceed without a timely competition, thanks to a politically created “capability gap.” That gap was based on aircraft numbers that have never been demanded simultaneously; by fudging actual CF-18 operational serviceability history; and by the false narrative that the CF-18 cannot keep operating until we start getting new aircraft.
Any imagined gap, however, could be filled by 27 available Kuwaiti F-18C/D aircraft for $330 million US. Or, we could upgrade our entire fleet of 76 CF-18s to close to Super Hornet systems status for about 20 per cent of what we’ll pay for 18 Super Hornets. Neither option was explored.
We don’t have technicians and support capacity for today. Eighteen Super Hornets will cost about $7 billion Cdn and add 350 non-existent personnel and Super Hornet-specific infrastructure. We are already losing pilots to voluntary release at rates we can’t re-generate, and we certainly don’t have extras for the Super Hornet.
Many real experts were never consulted, and 240 were forced to sign lifetime non-disclosure agreements, which hides the truth. The Auditor General, the Ethics Commissioner and the Parliamentary Budget Officer should take an interest.
Competitions don’t take five years, and to satisfy everyone, we need to start one immediately. Denmark did one quickly, and Canada already has a (now suppressed) options analysis that points to the F-35. As in the past, the F-35 will win any competition not rigged against it.
The Super Hornet is a fine aircraft for its roles and time, but we need a fighter for projected threats into the 2050s. The Super Hornet also has a thorny safety issue in its oxygen system, which has resulted in 297 incidents and permanent grounding for some aircrews.
One argument that doesn’t stand up is that the F-35 doesn’t work. Its operational development continues and in every exercise where F-35 participates, its effectiveness is very evident. In our own primary aim of air sovereignty, the F-35’s clean configuration will allow it to conduct higher-altitude intercepts that the Super Hornet cannot.
Another argument that doesn’t stand up is cost. The latest cost for the F-35A is $8.5 billion US for 90 aircraft, or $94.6 million per aircraft. But as predicted, that cost will continue to decrease and in 2020, when we should start receiving our aircraft, it will be about $85 Million. The F-35 is cheaper than the Super Hornet.
The Super Hornet will not be interim. Even if the F-35 were to win a competition, we would suddenly realize that we can’t afford two small fleets, due to duplication of everything. That will apply to the Super Hornet and CF-18, and assuredly to the Super Hornet and F-35. The Aussies are doing it, but we are not them, and we would be stuck buying more Super Hornets.
Canadian aerospace industries, jobs and the economy will also be losers on our current path. We will lose out on billions in contracts and be out of step with future technology. This will be an industry-killing Avro Arrow redux and/or a costly Sea King redux.
We cannot afford to continue on the current path for many reasons: Canadian sovereignty and security, taxpayers, technical, personnel, moral, commonality with allies and Canadian industry. I have received virtually unanimous support for my position, most importantly from members of the RCAF at all rank levels.
Lt.-Col. (Retired) Hon. Laurie Hawn, PC, CD is a former RCAF CF-18 Squadron Commander and member of Parliament.

Reevely: We aren't checking whether billions in infrastructure spending is any...

Laurie Hawn knows squat. Look at his performance while in the right-wing Canadian government. Right-wingers are idiots and Hawn exemplifies one.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: Close Ally Canada CANCELLED F-35 Order because delivery delayed and price up too

Bro, the forums allows you to engage IMH cases every six months and that too only in one thread. The privilege is sparingly used when you are usually dead bored.

We always had them since genesis.

Btw in keeping with spirit of this thread, it's common knowledge that China is more than capable of invading all of mankind but have refrained due to the good heartiness of their heart.


Arms hypothetical comparisons are completely meaningless - everyone can postulate whatever theories they want and there is no credible way to test their validity empirically unless serious war breaks out. Inevitably all such discussions will descend into emotional m&d slinging devoid of any value.

All that the public knows for sure is that to date the world has only 3 models of 5th generation stealth fighters in operation, i.e. F22, F35 (US) and J20 (China). 2 other models SU57 (Russia) and J31 (China) are in prototype stage and will likely be operational in the near future. Out of the 3 countries mentioned above, 1 is a global arms superpower, 1 is an upcoming superpower challenger while the remaining 1 though weaker these days has a history of credible fighter development track record.

I would think the myriad of brilliant R&D minds in these 3 countries have better credibility on the subject of stealth then forum posts or youtube videos made by unknown online personas.
 
Top