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What do you think of Japan's militarization plans?

Sideswipe

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Haven't I mentioned that the Japanese were attacking the important areas in China and these happened to be occupied by the KMT (for obvious reasons, since they were in power)?
Also, before the truce following the Xi'an incident, the CCP couldn't fight the Japanese in the open because that would mean exposing themselves to the KMT.
You still couldn't accept the fact that China was weakened by the KMT-CCP war and that why the Japanese could attack it. And the KMT-CCP war was started by the KMT in 1927. Why don't you blame the KMT for betraying the Communists in the Shanghai Purge? At that time, everybody already knew the Japanese was planning to attack China. Why did Chiang still decide to break away from the CCP? Would Sun Yat Sen do the same thing?


the CCP could have taken offensive military action against the Japanese. but they didn’t. Warlord Ma Bufang volunteered to take his troops from Qinghai to Henan to fight the Japanese. if Ma also thought like the CCP in that period: Japanese don’t touch me. i won’t touch them too. Ma would make up some excuses to chicken out of the war. Chiang Kai Shek can’t punish Ma too. nobody can touch Ma Bufang in Qinghai.

would you agree that it was China’s blessing that the KMT and most of its aligned Warlords were selfless patriots during the war unlike the very selfish CCP ?

Chiang was right to purge the Chinese Communist. before the Shanghai purge, KMT was on the verge of being taken over from within by the CCP. please read the book “the Generalissimo by Jay Taylor” for a detailed account of this story. the Soviet archives told us that the CCP usually followed Comintern’s orders most of the times. the CCP was a puppet of Soviet Russia who had evil interests in China. therefore Chiang reached the conclusion that the KMT must annihilate CCP at all costs.

five sides ( KMT, former CCP, US, Russian, Japan ) and stories from ordinary people like Father J.De.Jaegher and Dr Lin Yutang can confirm the CCP wayang war. the CCP did little to no fighting during the war. it was different from your position of “KMT fought the Japanese more”. you chose to believe the CCP one-sided version of the story ? would you agree that the CCP did little to no fighting against the Japanese during the war ?



Of course, he had to fight the Japanese. He was the ruler of China. He was fighting for his own Kingdom, just like Mao was fighting to get his.

there were two leaders who talked louder than Chiang about fighting the Japanese. they were Wang Jingwei and Mao Zedong and both of them accused Chiang of not actively resisting the Japanese before 1937. During the war, Wang defected to the Japanese camp. Mao’s CCP wayang the whole 8 years war. only Chiang and the KMT fought the bitter war to the very end until eventual victory. Chinese should give Generalisso Chiang due credit for the war success.



Of course everything depended on circumstances. You are making an absolutely meaningless statement.
If Japan had listened to its pro-China faction, there would be no war, right?

First, we aren't talking about court of law. In a court of law, if B had intention to murder C, that already would be a crime even if the murder didn't take place. But you would defend B saying it might not have happened because it depended on circumstances. Second, you don't have any evidence that the CCP instigated the KMT to start a full war. You kept saying the CCP provoked the Japs in Manchuria. But it was not just the CCP who wanted the Japanese out of Manchuria. The other KMT warlord generals also wanted to the fight the Japs there. Also provoking the Japanese is different from deliberating instigating the Japanese to attack China. Person A instigating person B to kill C means B telling C: "please kill C".

everything of course depended on circumstances, that’s why if 7/7 never happened, China and Japan might never went to war. in 1937, most American would say that the possibility of a US-Japan war was impossible in their lifetime. nothing is certain.

i didn’t defend B. A and B were both guilty of the murder crime. i was just pointing out that A was guilty of the murder crime too.



Is there a need? Didn't you say that the CCP had intented it to be a "local war" to embroil the KMT? Didn't you say it didn't plan for "that much"? So in your mind, the CCP didn't plan for 7/7 to start a full blown Japanese attack. You haven't come up with any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, to support your assertion that the CCP had instigated the Japanese to launch a full war.

some background on the Soviet-CCP relations that was important to 7-7.

In 1931, Russian GRU issued instructions to all its operatives in China to provoke a war between China and Japan asap. In 1935, during the Comintern international conference, Stalin called out for all Comintern parties to militarily defend motherland Soviet Russia against Germany and Japan. from the memoirs of former CCP leaders Wang Ming, Zhang Guotao and German Communist Li De, we know that the CCP usually carry out Comintern orders faithfully. the book 红色国际特工 told us that many CCP members were Russian GRU agents. these people directly reported to Russian GRU, not Comintern. most of these facts can be verified from the Soviet Archives.

we can deduce that the CCP had a motive to provoke a war between China and Japan. they were carrying out the will of its master, the Soviet Russia.

if you don’t agree with this part, i can’t proceed further.
 

Sideswipe

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
There were photos and videos on the PM paying respect to the Shrine. Usually he just bowed to some altar which probably represented all the dead enshrined there, and that would include the war criminals. The Japanese could easily remedy the situation by removing the names of the war criminals from the shrine (likely that no remains were buried there), and nobody would protest. Also, if it weren't the PM paying respect, nobody would protest. The PM visiting the Shrine can only mean one thing - the Japanese Far Right is in control. Anybody who cannot see this is blind. Even if the PM himself isn't from the Far Right, if he visits the Shrine, he is trying win support from the Far Right.

Now, did the Japanese keep their Far Right in check. No, in fact, the Far Right is in power. The PM visiting the shrine. Politicians denying Nanjing Rape, etc. Revising history textbooks. Do you seriously think the Chinese were unreasonable to think that the Japanese weren't sincere in their apologies?

A head of state paying respects to a shrine honoring war criminals is tantamount to telling the world that he didn't think the war crimes were a big deal.

It is okay that you are anti-CCP. I agree that the CCP is evil. But now you are starting to look like a Japan war apologist.


ok. understand the shrine issue now.

i am not anti-CCP. i am badly misunderstood. in fact, i think that the CCP are doing a good job of ruling China now. i believe that Mr Xi Jinping can solve China problems if given due time. China will have a great future. this is the present. the past is another issue. i believe that the CCP founding fathers had betrayed China back then and they were traitors to the Chinese people. i don't lump past and present issues together.
 

Sideswipe

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Non -Chinese like you will never understand the enmity between the Chinese and The Japs.Nobody alive is capable to say forgive on behalf of those victims.I am a 3rd generation Chinese here and my mainland Chinese colleagues are very surprise I am more anti japs than them.I have passed a degree to the whole company both in Singapore and in China that nobody should buy japs goods otherwise........................The blood debts must be settled sooner or later maybe not in my lifetime,but I hope it must be payback!!


you must be crazy. why don't you be an one man army and try to plant the PRC or ROC flag on Diaoyu islands. don't expect PRC, ROC or SG authorities to save you later. you are going to stay in Japan prison for a long long time. :biggrin:
 

Conqueror

Alfrescian
Loyal
I Wish I Can Believe That Was True

Warlord Ma Bufang volunteered to take his troops from Qinghai to Henan to fight the Japanese.

Chiang was right to purge the Chinese Communist.

Chiang reached the conclusion that the KMT must annihilate CCP at all costs.

five sides ( KMT, former CCP, US, Russian, Japan ) and stories from ordinary people like Father J.De.Jaegher and Dr Lin Yutang can confirm the CCP wayang war. the CCP did little to no fighting during the war.

During the war, Wang defected to the Japanese camp. Mao’s CCP wayang the whole 8 years war. only Chiang and the KMT fought the bitter war to the very end until eventual victory. Chinese should give Generalisso Chiang due credit for the war success.


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I hope the young gen commies in China will see the light.
 

maozedong

Alfrescian
Loyal
would you agree that it was China’s blessing that the KMT and most of its aligned Warlords were selfless patriots during the war unlike the very selfish CCP ?
No, there were patriots on both sides. KMT did most of the fighting because their territories were targeted.

Chiang was right to purge the Chinese Communist. before the Shanghai purge, KMT was on the verge of being taken over from within by the CCP. please read the book “the Generalissimo by Jay Taylor” for a detailed account of this story. the Soviet archives told us that the CCP usually followed Comintern’s orders most of the times. the CCP was a puppet of Soviet Russia who had evil interests in China. therefore Chiang reached the conclusion that the KMT must annihilate CCP at all costs.
five sides ( KMT, former CCP, US, Russian, Japan ) and stories from ordinary people like Father J.De.Jaegher and Dr Lin Yutang can confirm the CCP wayang war. the CCP did little to no fighting during the war. it was different from your position of “KMT fought the Japanese more”. you chose to believe the CCP one-sided version of the story ? would you agree that the CCP did little to no fighting against the Japanese during the war ?
You quote an American biography of Chiang. Of course, his view would be from the American perspective.
I do not agree that the CCP did NO fighting at all against the Japanese. Earlier, you wrote the CCP fought one battle against the Japanese. So now how could you say it did little to no fighting?


there were two leaders who talked louder than Chiang about fighting the Japanese. they were Wang Jingwei and Mao Zedong and both of them accused Chiang of not actively resisting the Japanese before 1937. During the war, Wang defected to the Japanese camp. Mao’s CCP wayang the whole 8 years war. only Chiang and the KMT fought the bitter war to the very end until eventual victory. Chinese should give Generalisso Chiang due credit for the war success.

Yes. Did I ever deny that the KMT fought the Japanese? Chiang was in power. He had to protect his kingdom. If it were Mao in power, he would also want to fight the Japanese to protect his own kingdom. Do not be so naive as to think that these leaders were democrat or socialist. Both of them wanted to be emperors. The actions of both men after the war bore witness to this.

everything of course depended on circumstances, that’s why if 7/7 never happened, China and Japan might never went to war. in 1937, most American would say that the possibility of a US-Japan war was impossible in their lifetime. nothing is certain.
i didn’t defend B. A and B were both guilty of the murder crime. i was just pointing out that A was guilty of the murder crime too.
some background on the Soviet-CCP relations that was important to 7-7.
In 1931, Russian GRU issued instructions to all its operatives in China to provoke a war between China and Japan asap. In 1935, during the Comintern international conference, Stalin called out for all Comintern parties to militarily defend motherland Soviet Russia against Germany and Japan. from the memoirs of former CCP leaders Wang Ming, Zhang Guotao and German Communist Li De, we know that the CCP usually carry out Comintern orders faithfully. the book 红色国际特工 told us that many CCP members were Russian GRU agents. these people directly reported to Russian GRU, not Comintern. most of these facts can be verified from the Soviet Archives.
we can deduce that the CCP had a motive to provoke a war between China and Japan. they were carrying out the will of its master, the Soviet Russia.
if you don’t agree with this part, i can’t proceed further.

Okay, okay, everything depended on circumstances. Japan might never have attacked China. It might never had committed the Rape of Nanjing. Right.

I do not know why you keep harping the collusion between Soviet and CCP. They are both communists. Of course, they would collude. What's the problem with that?

Provocation is not equal to instigation. Having a motive does not mean a crime is committed.

Perhaps according to you, the CCP should surrender to the KMT so that the KMT could deter the Japanese from starting a war? Sure that would be nice. But given the brutalities committed in the KMT-CCP war, we know this was not possible. Chiang Kai Shek was just as cruel as Mao. Many Commies tortured to death. Zhou's wife was beaten so severely that she couldn't conceive anymore. Chiang executed Yang Hucheng, his wife and young son (a child!) for his role in the Xi'an incident. He also killed tens of thousands of civilians in Taiwan.

Now, I have never suggested that Mao or CCP were the good guys. In fact, they were evil and did a lot of evil to the Chinese people. But ironic as it is, evil tyrants like Mao (or Hitler, Stalin, etc) were usually very "patriotic" because they would protect their kingdom and stand up to foreigners. The CCP would never want to give an inch of China to Japan. Mao successfully fought the Korean and Indian wars. For all his faults and evilness, Mao did keep China whole. If China were a US backed liberal democracy, I seriously doubt the US would allow it to remain so big.
 
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maozedong

Alfrescian
Loyal
Actually, I am not too sure about China today. The CCP now is even more corrupt than in Mao's time. Sure during Mao's time, they were corrupt and lived off the people, but their loot stayed within China. Now, the CCP leaders are stashing their loot in the West. And we are talking about top leaders like Bo Xilai - somebody destined to be in the CPSC (top 5 leaders). Bo's case was an eye opener. Many people used to think the very top leaders wouldn't be corrupt since they already "own" the country (it is like accusing an Emperor of being corrupt) - but this is definitely not the case. Maybe they themselves don't have confidence in the system and are ready to jump ship in a crisis. It's sad because the Chinese people really have a lot of potential. When it comes to making money, they are on par with the Jews.

I'm not sure about your point that the CCP betrayed the Chinese people during WWII because I haven't seen any conclusive evidence.

ok. understand the shrine issue now.

i am not anti-CCP. i am badly misunderstood. in fact, i think that the CCP are doing a good job of ruling China now. i believe that Mr Xi Jinping can solve China problems if given due time. China will have a great future. this is the present. the past is another issue. i believe that the CCP founding fathers had betrayed China back then and they were traitors to the Chinese people. i don't lump past and present issues together.
 
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sleaguepunter

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
chairman mao, the CCP really did little fighting during WW2. the two main forces of the CCP was the new fourth army and the famous 八路軍. but the lin biao command 8 route army consist of only 3 infantry divisions which had a nominal strength of 8-10k each. poorly equipped and supplies nearly non existent. using mostly captured supplies, they mainly only disrupt japanese supplies routes and never fought pitched battle against the IJA. in fact they spent more time recruiting from the peasants and form militia for their future conflict against the kmt. the terrorities the ccp control maybe substantial but mostly of not important to the IJA, so IJA ignore the CCP.

by the way, lin biao really kenna deleted by the CCP. i once spoke with a 20 something yo ah tiong, he has no idea who was lin biao.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/百团大战

the above is the url for the few pitched battle CCP fought against the IJA. i hope u can read chinese.
 
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Conqueror

Alfrescian
Loyal
You Are Not Wrong To Assume This

Earlier, you wrote the CCP fought one battle against the Japanese. So now how could you say it did little to no fighting?


A puny expedition doesn't count. :wink:



Now, I have never suggested that Mao or CCP were the good guys. In fact, they were evil and did a lot of evil to the Chinese people. But ironic as it is, evil tyrants like Mao (or Hitler, Stalin, etc) were usually very "patriotic" because they would protect their kingdom and stand up to foreigners. The CCP would never want to give an inch of China to Japan. Mao successfully fought the Korean and Indian wars. For all his faults and evilness, Mao did keep China whole. If China were a US backed liberal democracy, I seriously doubt the US would allow it to remain so big.


They weren't patriotic. I can understand them. If I were to be the leader, I would have also want my territory to myself and without the strings being attached to the Soviets or the Americans. In this way, I can develop my nuclear and space programs to compete and to deter both superpower. This is my trump card for UN bargaining.
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
i am not defending anyone here but both sides politicians like to play punk whenever there a need to stir nationalistic sentiments due to domestic troubles. as much as prc not educating its citizens about the loans given by the jap govt to prc, the jap govt still want to whitewash history by not teaching its citizens what really happen during the conflict between china and japan from 1800s to 1945. whether or not the communists intigate the conflict or not, the war department of japan had plans to take over northern china since the meiji era. that cannot be denied.

as much as current generation should forgive what the japanese had done, that do not mean must forget about it. it not easy for a nation to just forget when tens of million of its citizens perished in the hands of the japanese. even now, many poles still cannot forgive what germany had done to them.

Since forgetting is not easy after the Japanese have already done his part to apologize so many time to china . I guess it's already enough . Cause no matter what the Japanese did , in those ah tiong eyes are never enough . Since its not enough , might at well don't apologize again . Simple as that . Imagine if you we're to apologize to someone and that someone keep finding excuses not to accept you , would you just carry on with your life and don't give a damn about him ? Logic isn't it ?
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
what disgust me is those Chinese with their forefathers and relatives cruelly treated by the jap jump to jap defend so promptly, furiously and diligently whenever someone mention about how jap treated Chinese cruelly during WWII.

the problem is not with those who accused of not letting go of the past, but those who are doing all the defending for jap so furiously and accusing others of not letting go although they are Chinese with forefathers and relatives were also tortured or killed by the jap.

jap and Korea were under heavy influenced of Chinese Confucius teaching. Chinese teach “仁” as core of Confucius ethic. jap teach “忠” as core of Confucius ethic. so as long as they are loyal to the emperor, whatever wrong doing is correct because its in the name of the emperor. this is a resemblance of christianity, even u r a good person and u don't believe in god. u will go to hell when u die. those 走狗 or the Chinese defender of jap, no matter how you defend your belove, perfect jap. they will still look down on you because u r not loyal which they value most in their culture!!!

I'm a Chinese too , and my grandma and grandfather do suffer during the war but I don't see them complaining because they know its not the younger generation who do them wrong . My grand parents do understand its wrong to blame the younger generation which got nothing to do with war crime . I don't care what others think about me as I know what's the different between past and present same as my grandparents . Will the victim parents blame the whole generation of the murderer ? Of course not . It's just not logic . Of course we have to defence the younger generation of Japanese here cause its unfair to blame them here as they don't log in Sammyboy and can't speak for themselves here . it's like bad mouthing people behind their back without them knowing and try to distort the facts here .
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Re: I Wish I Can Believe That Was True

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I hope the young gen commies in China will see the light.

I don't think they will see the light cause they have been brainwashed by their leader for political gains to bully the Japanese . It's sad to see Singaporean Chinese also been affected by those brainwashed .
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
you must be crazy. why don't you be an one man army and try to plant the PRC or ROC flag on Diaoyu islands. don't expect PRC, ROC or SG authorities to save you later. you are going to stay in Japan prison for a long long time. :biggrin:

He Kena brainwashed by the PRC thinking every Chinese must agree those PRC politicans and by agreeing to those PRC means 龙的传人 :wink:
 

moolightaffairs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
jap never have a proper and official apology issue ? Check my post #305 . don't behave like a ah tiong .

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/thread-821196-1-1.html


http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90883/8097125.html


knn, jap cock sucker. FORMER pm of jap. knn u really jump the gun man. this is not formal! did u mix up former and formal? can u find one official apology by the emperor or the PM (not former ho). issue a official apology for the country? like chancellor of Germany, not former chancellor of Germany. want to suck cock eagerly also not like that, embarrassing yourself only. your #305 is a joke, go check out what Germany did then come tell me jap already did their best. so eager to suck cock, worst than chao ah gua. ptui! xiah sueh your parents, your relatives and those Chinese who got killed during jap occupation. may them rest in peace when they have you this kind of junior.
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
knn, jap cock sucker. FORMER pm of jap. knn u really jump the gun man. this is not formal! did u mix up former and formal? can u find one official apology by the emperor or the PM (not former ho). issue a official apology for the country? like chancellor of Germany, not former chancellor of Germany. want to suck cock eagerly also not like that, embarrassing yourself only. your #305 is a joke, go check out what Germany did then come tell me jap already did their best. so eager to suck cock, worst than chao ah gua. ptui! xiah sueh your parents, your relatives and those Chinese who got killed during jap occupation. may them rest in peace when they have you this kind of junior.

Do you have any idea what you are taking ? You want formal apology I give you example now . Your personal hatred for the Japanese have blinded you . Don't be like the china politician always finding excuses not to except Japan apologies . wake up dude !! I'm trying my best not to use any vulgarities on you , hope you debate this issue in a gentleman manner . You know very well I can be very nasty if I wanted to .

{ 2005 04 16 }
Japan’s Apologies to China
In this post I have assembled together as many unique statements including apologies or statements of regret towards China. Please read the introduction to my post on Japan’s apologies to Korea which applies equally here. Briefly, my position is that I think the apology issue is the wrong issue for those concerned with historical revisionism in Japan to spend their energy on. Not only do I think Japan has already apologized, but I believe such national apologies have little or no worth and aren’t worth the hot air they generate. In fact, neither do they satisfy the Asian countries they are directed towards (if and when they ever find out about the statements) but they increasingly inflame otherwise sympathetic Japanese who feel they are forced to engage in constant self-flagellation. This distracts them from the more important historiographical issues at stake on all sides. On the other hand, it is also highly inaccurate to portray the “apology diplomacy” of Japan as a story of repeatedly issuing unambiguous statements of admitted guilt and apology. These statements vary greatly, and were often issued with great reluctance and in the face of opposition from conservative politicians who etertain the most revisionist historical positions.

Note: There is overlap between this and my last posting, simply because some statements referred to all of Asia or at least to both Korea and China.

Let us begin:

Statements Including Apologies or Statements of Regret Relevant to China

1972.9.29 Joint Communique of the Government of Japan and the Government of the People’s Republic of China “The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war, and deeply reproaches itself.” J: 日本側は,過去において日本国が戦争を通じて中国国民に重大な損害を与えたことについての責任を痛感し,深く反省する。 C: 日本方面痛感日本国过去由于战争给中国人民造成的重大损害的责任,表示深刻的反省。 Notes: The English version Japanese version, and Chinese versions are online.

1982.8.24 Suzuki Zenkô (Prime Minister) At a press conference during the first textbook crisis of 1982. “I am painfully aware of [our] responsibility for inflicting serious damages (on some Asian countries) during the past war.” J:「過去の戦争を通じ、重大な損害を与えた責任を深く痛感している」 “We need to recognize/acknowledge criticism that (Japan’s occupation) was invasion.” J: 「『侵略』という批判もあることは認識する必要がある」 Notes: Is it safe to say that there is an ambiguity in the word 認識 which could either imply that you acknowledge safely from a distance the criticism without necessarily believing it to be correct?

1982.8.26 Suzuki Zenkô (Prime Minister) I’m not sure if this is the same press conference as above, but according to this document, the following statement was issued: “Japan and the people of Japan are deeply conscious of the fact that in the past our actions have caused a great deal of pain and loss to the countries of Asia, including China and Korea, and we are building the foundations of our future as peaceful country upon our reflection upon this fact and our resolve never to it happen again.” (MT) J: 日本政府及び日本国民は,過去において,我が国の行為が韓国・中国を含むアジアの国々の国民に多大の苦痛と損害を与えたことを深く自覚し,このようなことを二度と繰り返してはならないとの反省と決意の上に立って平和国家としての道を歩んで来た。

1992.10.27 Heisei Emperor (Akihito) “In the long history of relations between our two countries, there was a tragic period when my country caused great suffering for the people of China. We have rebuilt our country and strongly resolved to pursue the path of a peaceful country on the basis of our deep regret and desire that this kind of war should never be repeated.” (WP) J: この両国の関係の永きにわたる歴史において、我が国が中国国民に対し多大の苦難を与えた不幸な一時期がありました。これは私の深く悲しみとするところであります。戦争が終わった時、我が国民は、このような戦争を再び繰り返してはならないとの深い反省にたち、平和国家としての道を歩むことを固く決意して、国の再建に取り組みました。爾来、我が国民は、世界の諸国との新たな友好関係を築くことに努力してまいりましたが、貴国との間においては、両国の先人たちをはじめとする多くの人々の情熱と努力によって、将来にわたる末長い平和友好を誓い合う関係が生まれ、広範な分野での交流が深まりつつあります。 C: 在两国关系悠久的历史上,曾经有过一段我国给中国国民带来深重苦难的不幸时期。我对此深感痛心。战争结束后,我国国民基于不再重演这种战争的深刻反省,下定决心,一定要走和平国家的道路,并开始了国家的复兴。从此,我国专心致力于建立与世界各国之间的新的友好关系。在同贵国的关系上,通过两国前辈们等许多人士的热情努力,建立了要永誓和平友好的关系,两国在广泛领域的交流正在不断加深。我对两国国民之间关系取得了这样的进展感到由衷的喜悦,同时衷心希望这种良好的关系进一步发展成为不可动摇的关系。Notes: As you can see, this is a rather weak and vague statement in comparison to the important 1972, 1995, and 1998 statements. However, its importance shouldn’t be underestimated. The statement admits that Japan “caused” (与えた) pain to the Chinese people and claims that as a result of this Japan was forced to reflect and regret this period of time and desire never to repeat it in the future. A statement coming from the emperor such as this is still more than many had expected (He apparently also used the word “regret” or 反省 with Li Peng’s visit to Japan in 1989 but I can’t find the original full statement on this). There was political debate in Japan whether this statement constituted a violation of the constitutional role of the emperor, especially since it was reported that not only the foreign ministry but the emperor’s own hand was found in the specific wording of the phrase. There was also considerable negotiations between the Chinese and Japanese about the wording and certain adjustments in the translation which makes the statement stronger in Chinese. For example, the phrase 多大の苦難 or “much suffering” is translated in a slightly heavier sounding 深重苦难 or “grave/deep suffering” which the Chinese felt was a more appropriately serious adjective. Actually, more than the apology, at least two articles I read indicated that Deng Xiaoping was more happy to just get the emperor over there so soon after the Tiananmen incident. China was still suffering the aftershocks of diplomatic isolation. The Japanese version and the Chinese version of these statements are available online.

1993.8.11 Hosokawa (Prime Minister) “The last war was a war of aggression[/invasion]” J: 「先の戦争は侵略戦争」I have also seen this version “The last war was a war of agreesion, it was a mistake.” 「先の戦争は侵略戦争、誤った戦争。」This was supposedly given at the press conference after he came into power.

1995.6.9 Diet of Representatives A watered down statement was issued by the Diet (see posting on this coming soon) which includes the following “On the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II, this House offers its sincere condolences to those who fell in action and victims of wars and similar actions all over the world. Solemnly reflecting upon many instances of colonial rule and acts of aggression in the modern history of the world, and recognizing that Japan carried out those acts in the past, inflicting pain and suffering upon the peoples of other countries, especially in Asia, the Members of this House express a sense of deep remorse.” J: 本院は、戦後五十年にあたり、全世界の戦没者および戦争等による犠牲者に対し、追悼の誠を捧げる。また、世界の近代史における数々の植民地支配や侵略行為に想いをいたし、我が国が過去に行ったこうした行為や他国民とくにアジア諸国民に与えた苦痛を認識し、深い反省の念を表明する。我々は、過去の戦争についての歴史観の相違を超え、歴史の教訓を謙虚に学び、平和な国際社会を築いていかなければならない。Notes: Notice the “sharing” of responsibility at work here by noting that Japan’s colonial behavior was consistent with that of other nations. This marks one of the many changes required to get 230 out of 251 (about half the Diet didn’t even show up for the vote) to pass. While certainly not inaccurate, this addition led to serious criticism and may be why Murayama’s later statement on August 15th is the most consistently referred to by the Foreign Ministry.

1995.8.15 Murayama Tomiichi (Prime Minister) On the 50th anniversary of the end of the war. Full text on Foreign Ministry site. ” During a certain period in the not too distant past, Japan, following a mistaken national policy, advanced along the road to war, only to ensnare the Japanese people in a fateful crisis, and, through its colonial rule and aggression, caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. In the hope that no such mistake be made in the future, I regard, in a spirit of humility, these irrefutable facts of history, and express here once again my feelings of deep remorse and state my heartfelt apology. Allow me also to express my feelings of profound mourning for all victims, both at home and abroad, of that history.” J: 「わが国は、遠くない過去の一時期、国策を誤り、戦争への道を歩んで国民を存亡の危機に陥れ、植民地支配と侵略によって、多くの国々、とりわけアジア諸国の人々に対して多大の損害と苦痛を与えました。私は、未来に誤ち無からしめんとするが故に、疑うべくもないこの歴史の事実を謙虚に受け止め、ここにあらためて痛切な反省の意を表し、心からのお詫びの気持ちを表明いたします。また、この歴史がもたらした内外すべての犠牲者に深い哀悼の念を捧げます。」 Notes: It looks like there is a separate verbal statement by Murayama which is similar but has slightly different wording. Any thoughts? Also this statement was significantly watered down thanks to opposition from dozens of conservative Liberal Democrat Diet members. Some of the debate in the Diet on this reveals the deep revisionist leanings of many of these Diet members. Can anyone find some of the earlier proposed statements? Also, it looks like Murayama had already made his own position, expressed so clearly in this speech, almost a year earlier in this statement about his policy plans for a “Plan for Exchanges of Peace and Friendship” which you can find here. Again, make no mistake about it, this statement has since been embraced by prime ministers and the foreign ministry as the position of the Japanese government, despite resistance at the time. So even, for example, right-wing Hashimoto is found saying things like 「日本政府は、第二次世界大戦敗戦の日から五十周年の1995年、内閣総理大臣談話という形をとりまして、我が国として、過去の日本の行為が中国を含む多くの人々に対し、耐え難い悲しみと苦しみを与えた、これに対して深い反省の気持ちの上に立ち、お詫びを申し上げながら、平和のために力を尽くそうとの決意を発表しました。私自身がその談話の作成に関わった閣僚の一人です。」  There are many other examples where the August 15th statement is referred to in this way as the official position, see for example, here, here, and here.

1998.11.26 Japan-China Joint Declaration On Building a Partnership of Friendship and Cooperation for Peace and Development In section three is the clause, “The Japanese side is keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious distress and damage that Japan caused to the Chinese people through its aggression against China during a certain period in the past and expressed deep remorse for this.” J: 過去の一時期の中国への侵略によって中国国民に多大な災難と損害を与えた責任を痛感し、これに対し深い反省を表明した。 After this sentence, the Chinese express their response: J: 中国側は、日本側が歴史の教訓に学び、平和発展の道を堅持することを希望する。双方は、この基礎の上に長きにわたる友好関係を発展させる。 Notes: The Japanese version, English version, and Chinese version are all available online. Notice the inclusion of the word “aggression/invasion” (侵略) as compared to the 1972 Communique phrasing of “through war.”

2001.4.3 Fukuda Yasuo (Chief Cabinet Secretary) “Japan humbly accepts that for a period in the not too distant past, it caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations, through its colonial rule and aggression, and expresses its deep remorse and heartfelt apology for this. Such recognition has been succeeded by subsequent Cabinets and there is no change regarding this point in the present Cabinet” Notes: In a statement made about the 2002 textbooks found here. Can someone find the Japanese version on the MOFA Japanese web page?

2001.9.8 Tanaka Makiko (Foreign Minister) “We have never forgotten that Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries during the last war. Many lost their precious lives and many were wounded. The war has left an incurable scar on many people, including former prisoners of war. Facing these facts of history in a spirit of humility, I reaffirm today our feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology expressed in the Prime Minister Murayama’s statement of 1995″ J: 日本は、先の大戦において多くの国の人々に対して多大な損害と苦痛を与えたことを決して忘れてはおりません。多くの人々が貴重な命を失ったり、傷を負われました。また、元戦争捕虜を含む多くの人々の間に癒しがたい傷跡を残しています。こうした歴史の事実を謙虚に受け止め、1995年の村山内閣総理大臣談話の痛切な反省の意及び心からのお詫びの気持ちをここに再確認いたします。 Notes: Full statement here and in Japanese here. Said during anniversary of San Francisco treaty.

2003.8.15 Koizumi Junichiro (Prime Minister) “During the war, Japan caused tremendous damage and suffering to the people of many countries, particularly to those of Asian nations. On behalf of the people of Japan, I hereby renew my feelings of profound remorse as I express my sincere mourning to the victims” J: あの戦いは、我が国のみならず多くの国々、とりわけアジアの近隣諸国に対しても多くの苦しみと悲しみを与えました。私は、この事実を謙虚に受けとめ、深い反省とともに、ここに謹んで哀悼の意を表したいと思います。 Notes: Made same day he visited Yasukuni. Full statement here and in Japanese (EUC) here.

Links and Sources:

松田弘、波多野澄雄、編 『アジアのなかの日本と中国:友好と摩擦の現代史』 山川出版者、2004。
天児慧『等身大の中国』 剄草書房、2004。
毛里和子、张蕴岭 『日中関係をどう構築するか:アジアの共生と協力をめざして』岩波書店、2004。

Wakamiya, Yoshibumi 若宮啓文 The Postwar Conservative View of Asia: How the Political Right Has Delayed Japan’s Coming to Terms With Its History of Aggression in Asia (Tokyo, LTCB International Library Foundation, 1999)

Tanaka Akira’s Online Database of Documents related to Japan’s International Relations

Japan Foreign Ministry Statements Related to Postwar Issues – Note that MOFA is very protective of the language of apologies and they only host the Murayama statement here, not many of the other formulations of apologies and statements of regret.
List of Statements of Apology (Japanese) Looks like revisionist site.
Some Translation Exercises which include apology statements (Japanese and English) – Looks like revisionist site.
Another Site Listing Apologies in English

J: Japanese translation
MT: My quick and dirty translation, other translations are taken from various sources. Some of them have or will be modified as we notice discrepancies.
 
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PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
I think there are 21 apologies. The newspaper Investors’ Business Daily said there had been 17. This contradicts Beijing’s Big Lie that there has never been any apology from Japan. Instead of groveling, Japan should counter by asking when China, or more specifically, the Chinese Communist Party, will apologize for the 30 million people exterminated during the Great Leap Forward famine holocaust, the hundreds of thousands killed in Tibet, and the support of Pol Pol and his Khmer Rouge butchers in Cambodia and Kim Jong-Il in North Korea.
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
The apology demanded seems to drag on and on. Both North Koreans and China still fiind time to throw rocks at Japan whenever it pleases to mantain the perception that it is the main aggressor in the asian circle . Japan has apologized so many times yet not enough for china , so what is the real issue here? Is it because of fear that Japan is pushing for a greater power in the region through economic means and also submission to be the permanent member of UN security council?
 

PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
What Japan has done on Chinese is exactly what China has done in recent years in Tibet, since the invasion of Tibet in 1959 to Present!
This is a vicious cycle that China is not admitting. When Tibetan or Chinese protest against the CCPs (Chinese Communist Party) various cruel policies, The CCP is quick to use brutal forces to crush these peaceful protest. But when there is “anti-japanese” or anti-non-CCP protest is happened in China, it is well documented that CCP’s agent provocateur, provokes and encourages these protest. This what CCP has been known to do well when they see the anger of the mass coming their way, CCP uses “Patriotic lingo” to charge their youngsters and their mass to vent their angers at some other source, as long as its not the CCP.
This article shows in clear precision how the Chinese Communist Government manipulates and regulates its Citizens opinion. http://clearharmony.net/articles/200508/28229.html

As a Tibetan but more importantly as a Human being, it is common sense to REALIZE that What Japan has done in the past is very sad and inhumane but What China has done and is still doing in Tibet is Horrifyingly the same. This is hypocracy in action. The more than 150,000+ Tibetan refugees are the proof. "We can’t live in our own country and we can’t escape our own country to seek freedom in Exile "( ex: Nangpa la shooting ).

No matter what japan say china still say “NOT GOOD ENOUGH.” All it does is make china look immature
 

maozedong

Alfrescian
Loyal
Re: I Wish I Can Believe That Was True

So anybody who thinks the Japanese weren't sincere in their apologies is brainwashed by the Chinese Communists?
What about the Taiwanese? Also brainwashed by their own democratically elected government or by the Chinese communists?

Why don't you see yourself as being brainwashed by American propaganda?

Read my reply here if you think the Japanese PM was just paying respect to the dead soldiers and civilians.

And for every apology you post here, I can find a denial of wrong doing by a ruling class Japanese.

And you want to compare with Tibet? Did the Chinese slaughter and rape an entire city of civilians in Tibet? Did the Chinese use Tibetans to perform chemical and biological warfare experiments?

For your info, I am not pro-China or pro-Communist. I think the Chinese Communist Party is evil, but that has got nothing to do with the Japanese atrocities in WWII.

Also, I have nothing against the current generation of ordinary Japanese people, but I am very wary of the elite class in Japan - those in control of the country (not just the government). The Far Right is still in control of Japan today just like it did in WWII. If you think they truly repent over what they did in WWII, you are making a big mistake.



I don't think they will see the light cause they have been brainwashed by their leader for political gains to bully the Japanese . It's sad to see Singaporean Chinese also been affected by those brainwashed .
 
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PUNISHER

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Re: I Wish I Can Believe That Was True

So anybody who thinks the Japanese weren't sincere in their apologies are brain washed by the Chinese Communists?
What about the Taiwanese? Also brainwashed by their own democratically elected government or by the Chinese communists?

Why don't you see yourself as being brainwashed by American propaganda?

Read my reply here if you think the Japanese PM was just paying respect to the dead soldiers and civilians.

And for every apology you post here, I can find a denial of wrong doing by a ruling class Japanese.

And you want to compare with Tibet? Did the Chinese slaughter and rape an entire city of civilians in Tibet? Did the Chinese use Tibetans to perform chemical and biological warfare experiments?

For your info, I am not pro-China or pro-Communist. I think the Chinese Communist Party is evil, but that has got nothing to do with the Japanese atrocities in WWII.

Also, I have nothing against the current generation of ordinary Japanese people, but I am very wary of the elite class in Japan - those in control of the country (not just the government). The Far Right is still in control of Japan today just like it did in WWII. If you think they truly repent over what they did in WWII, you are making a big mistake.


1) So anybody who thinks the Japanese weren't sincere in their apologies are brain washed by the Chinese Communists? No , anyone who cannot tell the past from the present are being brainwashed .

2) What about the Taiwanese? Also brainwashed by their own democratically elected government or by the Chinese communists? Is Taiwanese as vocal as china ppl ? No .


3) Read my reply here if you think the Japanese PM was just paying respect to the dead soldiers and civilians.
Can you come to my house and tell me what I should do in my own house ? No .

4) And for every apology you post here, I can find a denial of wrong doing by a ruling class Japanese.
You got the same mentality as the PRC . Sorry is never enough , so should the Japanese waste time apologize to china ? NO , japan should not waste any more time trying something impossible


5) And you want to compare with Tibet? Why not compared ? China have violated the human rights issue in Tibet . What about china fighting Mongolia ?

6) after so many apologize to china you are saying Japan is not repent for what she did in world world 2 ? You are just like china , trying to find bones in egg .

You are just like china mentality , no point talking to you if you are trying every means to find stupid reason not to forgive . As I did mention before . Since after so many apologies from Japanese , in the eyes of china nothing is enough . If nothing is enough , Japan might as well stop apologize to china . that's why I won't be replying to your post again ... Waste my time replying to someone like china .
 
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