• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Why your negative antibody test might be wrong - UnHerd

Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
unherd.com

Why your negative antibody test might be wrong - UnHerd
TomChivers

7-9 minutes



There was a mini-epidemic around our way, back in February. When it was clear that the coronavirus was coming to Britain, everyone seemed to have it. Friends, family, parents at the school gate. I started to wonder if I’d had it, after I coughed a few times after going for a run in the cold air. One person I know even convinced themselves that they’d had it in, I think, November, which means there’s about a one-in-10 chance they’d have caught it directly from the bat.

Obviously, most of them will have been misdiagnoses, if you can call them “diagnoses” at all. Everyone was paranoid, and developing a bit of short-term hypochondria; and people don’t always have a good sense of the actual risk. (I remember, early on, seeing someone move seats on the Tube when someone else sneezed; back then, it was still hundreds of times more likely that the sneezer just had a cold.)

But a few seemed very real. People with dry coughs and fever and anosmia, being knocked out for quite some time — the real core symptoms. Testing wasn’t really up and running then (or for several months afterward), so unless they were hospitalised they weren’t tested, but it seemed pretty clear.

And then it got weird, because antibody testing became available, and several of these people with the core symptoms — honestly, I know of at least three, either directly or at one remove — tested negative. One of them had the “long Covid” symptoms, the post-viral fatigue and weakness that seems to last for months and is so reminiscent of ME/CFS. But their serology test was negative.

That person, incidentally, went onto a Facebook forum for long-lasting Covid sufferers to mention that — and had hundreds of replies from people saying similar things. There seem to be a lot of people who think they’ve had Covid, and who have had negative antibody tests. A decent percentage of them have had the proper core symptoms, or even the long Covid aftermath, and their tests, too, have come back negative.

More from this author
From Covid to crime: how media hype distorts risk
By Tom Chivers

Obviously some large number of these people will have been wrong. But a couple of weeks ago, I wrote a thing about antibodies and long-term immunity, and the concerns that vaccines wouldn’t work because the number of antibodies in patients’ bloodstream declined quite quickly.

The piece was largely saying that vaccines probably would work, but one acquaintance who’d had long Covid symptoms but a negative serology test got in touch, saying that they found it reassuring. That was because it suggested that a lot of people might have had the disease, but tested negative for antibodies, and a lot of the Covid people, especially, are nervous about antibody tests; after all if they come back negative, it might make them look as if they’re malingerers or hypochondriacs.

A new paper out in preprint from the King’s College London team behind the Covid symptom-tracker app adds a bit more colour to this picture. It looked at 431 people who were already being tracked through a pre-existing study. They were followed with the symptom-tracker app from way back in March.
It found, essentially, that lots of people who had the really core symptoms, and even some who were swab-tested at the time, later tested negative for antibodies. It also found that lots of people who did test positive for Covid, either by swab or antibody, didn’t have all of the core symptoms.

More from this author
Covid could become the new common cold
By Tom Chivers


“Of people who had clear symptoms associated with coronavirus,” says Dr Claire Steves, a KCL geriatrician who worked on the study, “about 50% of them didn’t have antibodies.” Not all of those people were swab-tested at the time, she says, “because testing wasn’t widely available,” but other studies have found that lots of people who were swab-tested then tested negative for antibodies.

This is all part of an increasingly complicated picture of the disease, says Dr Tim Spector, a colleague of Steves’ and the lead academic behind the Covid tracker app. In an earlier study, Steves and Spector found that you could divide up Covid cases into roughly six categories, some with roughly flu-like conditions, others with mainly gastrointestinal or even neurological symptoms.

He speculates that the immune system may respond differently to each kind, and that having a strong antibody response may not be all that good a thing. “Clearly all our immune systems are working in very different ways,” he says. “We think patients with long duration symptoms have some failure to clear the virus properly and it is stuck somewhere in the nervous system or in the gut.” Other immune responses, such as T-cells, may be going on. The team is working to see if patients do have detectable T-cell responses, but the tests for that are time-consuming and expensive and can’t be done via home testing — you need live T-cells from fresh blood — so it is not something that could be rolled out at scale.

Fundamentally, both Spector and Steves say, even if someone had a negative antibody test, you can’t rule out that they had the disease: “They’re in good company,” says Spector. “About 50% of people with classic symptoms didn’t have the antibodies.” The more severe the disease, the less likely a negative response is — partly, Steves and Spector point out, because very severe disease appears to be at least partially caused by the antibody response. But it absolutely makes sense that many people would have the disease and then appear negative in the serology tests.

Suggested reading
Was the two-metre rule one big lie?
By Timandra Harkness

There’s a bigger picture here, which is that if lots of people have the disease and then test negative, it changes our understanding of how widely the disease has spread in the population. Back in early July there were some shocking papers that came out, notably one from Spain which despite an awful outbreak found that only 5% of the population had a positive antibody response. It really set the scale of the problem into perspective, and how far from herd immunity we were.

These KCL findings — if they’re confirmed, I should say, because it’s still a relatively small study and because the sample might not be entirely representative — might shift that somewhat. Spector and Steves say that it could be that serology tests miss up to 50% of real cases. If that’s true, then up to about 10% of Spanish people may have had the disease — and perhaps more relevantly to most readers of this, up to 12% of British people, double the 6% estimate from the ONS. That’s an upper bound, and “it’s probably more likely in the middle”, says Steves. So it’s good news, but only cautiously so; it doesn’t give much support to wilder ideas that half of the population will have had it. Spector still puts the infection fatality rate at around 1%.

It should, however, be reassuring for the — probably quite large — group of people who were sure they had had the disease, and then tested negative when the antibody testing became available. There will also be a large cohort of people who genuinely had it, who suffered through quite severe symptoms or even long Covid, and were then told they never had it. That said, I’m sure that most of the north London hypochondriacs who convinced themselves they had the ‘rona back in February and March were wrong.
 

winners

Alfrescian
Loyal
This whole fucking world is too paranoid. International travel should be resumed. Visitors are to have a certified pre-Covid test at their country of origin not more than 3 days before their arrival and they should only travel when that pre-Covid test is negative.

Thereafter, upon arrival and producing their pre-Covid test result to the immigration, they are to report to any GP clinics to take their temperature on a daily basis for the subsequent 10 days. The GP clinics will then furnish these details to the Covid-19 control centre and only if a fever is detected, the visitor will then be immediately segregated and quarantined.

Government must make it mandatory for all the GP clinics to participate and execute this daily temperature screening, which should cost no more than S$3 per visitor per day and at the government's expense. After all, the temperature taking process will take no more than 30 seconds as is already commonly being done in supermarkets and shopping malls for free.
 

Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
This whole fucking world is too paranoid. International travel should be resumed. Visitors are to have a certified pre-Covid test at their country of origin not more than 3 days before their arrival and they should only travel when that pre-Covid test is negative.

Thereafter, upon arrival and producing their pre-Covid test result to the immigration, they are to report to any GP clinics to take their temperature on a daily basis for the subsequent 10 days. The GP clinics will then furnish these details to the Covid-19 control centre and only if a fever is detected, the visitor will then be immediately segregated and quarantined.

Government must make it mandatory for all the GP clinics to participate and execute this daily temperature screening, which should cost no more than S$3 per visitor per day and at the government's expense. After all, the temperature taking process will take no more than 30 seconds as is already commonly being done in supermarkets and shopping malls for free.

Temperature screening does not work for Covid-19 because most have no symptoms or symptoms so mild that they are not noticeable.
 

winners

Alfrescian
Loyal
Temperature screening does not work for Covid-19 because most have no symptoms or symptoms so mild that they are not noticeable.
Exactly. My meaning is that the current practice of all visitors having to go for quarantine immediately upon arrival is nonsensical and a big waste of resources. Fucking bloody stupid governments worldwide. Imagine how many of those on business trips will not travel due to the mandatory quarantine?

The negative result from the pre-Covid test at their country of origin will have almost guaranteed 80% of the chances of the visitor not having Covid-19 upon his arrival.
 
Top