The Warthog aka Bronco

[sleaguepunter]

Vis sa Vis winning the war especially a counter insurgency war. You have to go and patrol into every small village and town and not surrender the countryside to the Enemy.

The question is can you go into those villages and small towns with MBTs and or IFVs ?

mr lock,

there is no problems at all for armour to reach villages and small towns but it the problem of maintaining and protect them that is a issue. While armour is great in offensive, it become a liability when it stop. Armour will always need infantry support to hold ground. Once armour become static, then will be easy for enemy to engage with mortar or rockets bombardment.

So, armour is use to take ground but it always the foot infantry to hold ground. yes, armour now come with troopers aka infantry in the troop carriers but there only enough space in the troop carrier to carry a definte amount of provisions, ammo, and water.and the amount of troops in armour is low compare to infantry unit so there wont be enough men to protect the town/village. Fuel is another concern, most IFV have around 200-250miles range. No idiot will try to drive a fuel browser across unfriendly terrain.

i dunno abt other armed forces, but in SAF, armour combat load on paper should carry enough supplies to last 3-5 days. from experience, SAF is smoking grass to expect the supplies to last that long. Many a time we troopers go to the field with no fullpacks as there no space to store them. Ammo can be expended very fast in the target rich enviorment.

so to win the afgan conflict, the eventual winner have to win over the mind and heart of the local population, to deprave the other side of men, supplies and support from the local population. anyway i didnt follow the conflict, not sure what is happening.

 

[Papsmearer]

No , i not from 42SAR. i from the battlion that only have farmers as CO, at least till the time i ORDed. I know Area D is too small for a IFV/APC/MBT/AMX13 to run out of fuel but at least train for it lah. beri hard meh? (at least not for me, haha..)

While i only been to kanchanaburi (twice), i strongly believe the terrain and weather over there have many similarities with our potential area of conflict. The shoalwater is just for the senior officer to feel shiok leading a whole battlion / brigade, two up in formation. look good for saf advertisement but useless in tactical sense.

armour do have fibua training but only in infantry role which was kind of stupid. As for fighting in built up area, only the amx13 crew have experience in a sense as the armour simulator centre provide them training in them but only against enemy vehicle. That cannot be say for the AI or APC/IFV crew which dont even have.

by the way, when will the senior armour officers recongnise the fact that the bionix cannot do river crossing under fire? KNN. i almost drown during the nite crossing when the bionix almost flip in calm waters. in time of conflicts, i will go into the turret and shoot the 25mm brushmaster at the farker who order river crossing.:oIo:

Well, u are not from 40 SAR nor 46 SAR, but that's fine, lets keep u confidential. LOL. If u see the way the IDF employ their tanks in FIBUA like Gaza strip, its really eye opening. Anyway, I think u have the old Bionix model right? The new Bionix 2 should have better buoyancy. Anyway, river crossing always scare the shit out of me, its not natural for an AFV to swim. And doubly so in night ops. I think the M113 has much better swim characteristics.

In times of conflict, u should evaluate the order first. I know its contrary to military command and structure. But if you are ordered to open fire on a crowd of protesters, you should think twice.

 

[Papsmearer]

mr lock,

there is no problems at all for armour to reach villages and small towns but it the problem of maintaining and protect them that is a issue. While armour is great in offensive, it become a liability when it stop. Armour will always need infantry support to hold ground. Once armour become static, then will be easy for enemy to engage with mortar or rockets bombardment.

So, armour is use to take ground but it always the foot infantry to hold ground. yes, armour now come with troopers aka infantry in the troop carriers but there only enough space in the troop carrier to carry a definte amount of provisions, ammo, and water.and the amount of troops in armour is low compare to infantry unit so there wont be enough men to protect the town/village. Fuel is another concern, most IFV have around 200-250miles range. No idiot will try to drive a fuel browser across unfriendly terrain.

i dunno abt other armed forces, but in SAF, armour combat load on paper should carry enough supplies to last 3-5 days. from experience, SAF is smoking grass to expect the supplies to last that long. Many a time we troopers go to the field with no fullpacks as there no space to store them. Ammo can be expended very fast in the target rich enviorment.

so to win the afgan conflict, the eventual winner have to win over the mind and heart of the local population, to deprave the other side of men, supplies and support from the local population. anyway i didnt follow the conflict, not sure what is happening.

when going into the field, SAF armour doctrine is 3 X bellyload. One in the vehicle and 2 in the support trucks. SInce now, modern warfare is 24 hours a day, u can easily expend 3 bellyloads in 1 day. Definitely will not last 3-5 days Fuel will be expended very fast too.

 

[Hans168]

Seriously, I don't know what u are getting your panties in a bunch for. When u post, u post like a school kid who doesn't know jack shit and just pull some stuff out of the air. As I have said in my post, which if you care to read carefully, would have told u that the Brits use Permali for the their applique armour, not IBD. It does not make sense as u claim for the Broncos/Warthog to be shipped from singapore with IBD armour on it, and than to have it removed and replace with Permali armour. Additionally, the Brits would never have spec IBD AMAP or Mexas in their UOR for the Warthog. St Kinetic has to pay IBD for every AMAP kit they install. Therefore, what u said HAS to be inaccurate.

Secondly, with regards to your issue over the level of protection of the Bronco i.e. silcion ceramics versus aluminum oxide, I don't work for ST nor IBD, and I am not intimiately familiar with these materials, many of which are proprietary classified. I do know that the standard adopted by every army in the world, including the SAF is not to determine the effectiveness of the armour based on whether its good for 762 rounds or not. I am guessing u mean 7.62mm, but on the overall level of protection vis a vis land mines, shrapnel, IEDs, etc. The standard is STANAG 4569. I believe the Bronco meets STANAG level 3 protection. U can protect a any vehicle better, but the question is whether the suspension and drivetrain can take it, and at what cost. If u make it so well armoured, and it becomes too slow and cannot climb or has a reduced payload, its no good either. Generally speaking, non front line support vehicles like the Broncos have a lower level of armour protection, that's just the way the world works. So, i don;t have the same issue that u have.

I believe IBD and ST Kinetic has a JV operation in singapore, as well as a joint R & D arrangement. Don't know the location though.

I have reasons to believe Leckmichamarsch's claims are true.

On the other hand, uncouth language used in large dose by PAPsmearer, does not make him right. It just projected him as a dirty loudmouth with NO credibility at all. :oIo:

Bronco inventory are already cladded in Al Oxide & most of them were shipped to Thales in that state.

SiC is silicon carbide with 9.7 Moh hardness. You called it silicon ceramics - what a clown. You even want to split hair by taking issue with 762 rounds - who (except the dirty loudmouth..) do not know it is 7.64 small arms ammunition & 556 is 5.56 ammo!

Al Oxide tiles & SiC are NOT proprietary nor classified. Bonn has a big factory supplying Al Oxide tiles to IBD and there was a factory in Heinsberg supplying SiC 100 mm square (10 mm thick) tiles to IBD for some time ... So don't spout dirt along with lies! :oIo:

IBD has small equity in a setup in 249 Jln Boon Lay to clad armoured vehicle under an idiotic "work share program" - work Chinamen do, money German get to share.

Fuckoff when it is clear you know nuts :oIo::oIo::oIo:

 

[Hans168]

Locke, I already told u, u are a military genius. I will call all ISAF and US commanders in Astan to withdraw their tanks and AFV with immediate effect. I donch know why they don't see your obvious logic. Yes, they must conquer every small town and village and the countryside, just let the taliban have the cities and highways, ok?

Who gave you such authority?
Dream on you deluded dirty loudmouth

 

[sleaguepunter]

i dunno what bionix 1 or 2. to me, an end user, bionix suck period!!!

if u can only "think" the M113 have better water ops capabilities, does that mean u never experience M113 before. A M113 can run ring around the bionix in water borne ops. it easy to setup, the hull is above the waterline unlike the bionix is UNDER the waterline and most important of all, the VC of a M113 is not expose to enemy fire like a bionix VC.

bionix is design by a harebrain. i bet the farker never sit in one before. Even though as a bionix gunner, i no need to chiong sua, i rather serve in a M113 battlion as a trooper kia as the M113 is more spacious, more comfortable and better design than the bionix.

it was much easy to load a M113, dismount also easy. damn easy to climb onto the M113 deck and not dangerous to jump down from it. i bet my slip disc is due to the impact suffer by my spine from jumping from top of the bionix. So now i am a certified pes c but i still serve as bionix gunner for reservist atec as my platoon had only 10 troopers inclusive of the two 25mm gunners when it call for 18 men in the TOE.

all in all, i hate the bionix. i have numerous photos of me with the M113/Ultras but none with the bionix. A useless piece of junk.

Well, u are not from 40 SAR nor 46 SAR, but that's fine, lets keep u confidential. LOL.

KNN, u might as well shout 41SAR lol. But u wrong lah, no harm letting u know 46SAR. The worst armour unit forever. i heard they fail atec a few years back, knn, atec how to fail. must the CO useless, cannot even plan the ops properly, should be during the time where the RSM was the woman. Before her, the RSM was the farker chin chye ping right? farking faggot. But give the faggot his due, he sure can run, know to carry balls and organisation skill superb.

 

[Papsmearer]

KNN, u might as well shout 41SAR lol. But u wrong lah, no harm letting u know 46SAR. The worst armour unit forever. i heard they fail atec a few years back, knn, atec how to fail. must the CO useless, cannot even plan the ops properly, should be during the time where the RSM was the woman. Before her, the RSM was the farker chin chye ping right? farking faggot. But give the faggot his due, he sure can run, know to carry balls and organisation skill superb.

Yes, ever since Hsien Yang left as CO of 46, it has been going downhill. LOL. Kidding. anyway, lelac lah. all these ATEC is wayang anyway. If the unit failed ATEC, it just means their CO is not scholar enough and not high flyer enough. All those scholar Majors and above, arrowed for political office, will never be allowed to flunk anything in their military career, much less an ATEC.

 

[Papsmearer]

i dunno what bionix 1 or 2. to me, an end user, bionix suck period!!!

if u can only "think" the M113 have better water ops capabilities, does that mean u never experience M113 before. A M113 can run ring around the bionix in water borne ops. it easy to setup, the hull is above the waterline unlike the bionix is UNDER the waterline and most important of all, the VC of a M113 is not expose to enemy fire like a bionix VC.

.

Hahaha, trust me when I tell u there is no VC more exposed than that of an AMX-13. U feel practically naked, u are so far out of the turret. LOL.

 

[Leckmichamarsch]

i dunno what bionix 1 or 2. to me, an end user, bionix suck period!!!

Unfortunately the team which designed and developed the Bionix got one-rung promotions. Managers promoted to VP & VP promoted to Sr VP including blokes who are now EVP & CTO of S
T Engrg & President Fong Siak Hay

They supposed to sell by the 100's to USA and Middle East - but after spending millions in marketting blitz none was sold! Yet these promotions of harebrained!!! :oIo::oIo:

 

[Leckmichamarsch]

Who gave you such authority?
Dream on you deluded dirty loudmouth

Papsmearer is just a deluded jerk who sprung to life due to a punctured CD inserted in the smelly cunt of a Desker Rd whore.

 

[sleaguepunter]

Hahaha, trust me when I tell u there is no VC more exposed than that of an AMX-13. U feel practically naked, u are so far out of the turret. LOL.

never see amx13 in river crossing. but cannot be any worse than the bionix as u will have a sinking feeling as u can see the waterline is at your chest level while u are standing on top of the bionix hull on top of the trooper compartment or waterline over your head if u stand near the front headlights.

so i take it u r a tankee lah. now good lor, with amx13 taken off the service, u must be shaking leg at ICT.

 

[sleaguepunter]

Yes, ever since Hsien Yang left as CO of 46, it has been going downhill. LOL. Kidding. anyway, lelac lah. all these ATEC is wayang anyway. If the unit failed ATEC, it just means their CO is not scholar enough and not high flyer enough. All those scholar Majors and above, arrowed for political office, will never be allowed to flunk anything in their military career, much less an ATEC.

u r wrong, 42SAR fail its atec in dec97 at kanchanaburi. its CO a light colonel, high flyer but apparently he can only fight on sandtables and got cobbled by a combat team from 46SAR in thailand. Then 42SAR kenna investigate by ISB for falseified ORD shoot result. Apparently over 90% of the battlion got marksman badge for their ORD shoot which is not possible while this high flyer CO was still in charge. Many ORDed 42SAR troopers were recall for investigate, rumours flying everywhere, in the end what happen also not sure as it was swept under the carpet.

 

[Leckmichamarsch]

I have reasons to believe Leckmichamarsch's claims are true.

On the other hand, uncouth language used in large dose by PAPsmearer, does not make him right. It just projected him as a dirty loudmouth with NO credibility at all. :oIo:

Bronco was name-changed from ATTC.

ATTC stands for All Terrain Troop Carrier........... yet papsmearer does not know this basic fact & 1 2 argue till his fucking face turned blue.

What an ass

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear S

If you have read the article I posted, some armor is just to heavy for some of the terrain encountered. They have brought in Tanks but limited quantities for very very specific uses and missions.

There are specific issues to the use of tanks and the narrow villages , channels , fields , trees irrigation ditches which impede heavy armor movement which impede its general and widespread use

For the US and the Brits they have both gone for lighter and more mobile vehicles specifically I believe due to terrain issues on the ground.

PAP, its counter insurgency warfare in Astan, the commanders know they have to patrol villages and small ass towns even as they maintain their big strategic bases. The question is more of how its done and at what cost.



Locke

 

[sleaguepunter]

dear lock,

most western power dont have medium tanks like the russian, ie.. T55 and even the T72 only 40+ tons which are more suited for afghan threatre of ops. And there is also the issue of transporting these 60 tons MBTs to a landlock country. With the nearest port in pakistan, it a long and dangerous journey thru pakistan hill tribes controlled regions in order to reach Khyber Pass. Remember a few months back when the hill tribes attack Nato fuel convoys carrying fuel needed for daily operations. So why bring in fuel gushers when there no secured logistic train?

The only equipments available are those that can be fly in on C5 Glaxay, ie.. the Strikers and others wheeled armour vehicles.

As for terrain issue, like enclosed area like a town. If you see news on BBC during the Intifada, do u see how easy for the IDF merkavas to move into PLO/Hamas fighters positions. If i not mistakan, the merkava only carry 3-5 troops and the merkava is a huge MBT.

So it not the terrain that impede the use of heavy armoured vehicles, it the costs of have of having such vehicles in the threatre. A full tank of fuel can go 200-250 miles, the mileage for a armour vehicle is about 4 miles per gallon. At least the Leo2 and challenger 2 run on diesel, more economical than the Abrams. The tracks on armoured vehicle only good for 1000miles, in such a large threatre of Ops, very fast need to change. Then there the servicing and maintainence. In peace mode, every day also must service the vehicle, then there the 50hrs or 100hr servicing. I can go on and on on the disadvantage of heavy MBTs in afghanistan, but it not the terrain that rule out its use.

By the way, i dont see the soviet red army have any problems with its motorized rifle divisions during the 1970s. The red army lost is not due to lack of fighting skill but due to the imcompetence of the soviet politubro.

er... didnt read the article u post. All the above opinions are my own from what i know about armour. feel free to rebute as i only a low educated and low rank ex nsmen.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear S

I believe that Lebanon is even more well developed than Aftan was. The problem from the article I posted was that some parts are well developed but the vast majority of land remains tracks and dirt.

The expense on logistics is something I agree on and definitely played a part in the decision of mission commanders for lighter general use vehicles. But if u look at the terrain and pictures of brits around helmand, you would see irrigation channels , ditches , bad roads, all impediments to fast movement.

As you have pointed out if Armor cannot move it is practically useless.



Locke

 

[sleaguepunter]

Dear S

I believe that Lebanon is even more well developed than Aftan was. The problem from the article I posted was that some parts are well developed but the vast majority of land remains tracks and dirt.

i think u have a wrong perception of armour. armour are not road bound like wheel vehicle. The idea of a track vehicle is to allow it to cross all sort of terrains. While armour do travel on fix roads or tracks during movement but when come to operation, it a seriously good off roader.
But if u look at the terrain and pictures of brits around helmand, you would see irrigation channels , ditches , bad roads, all impediments to fast movement.

ok, this part of the country i dunno, but from what i see from BBC documentaries of the ex SAS chap McNab and Ross Kemp, the british army did commit armour units and the marine commados in helmand. But if u see the documentaries, u will notice that the international forces are not willing suffer losses, so they hold back their assaults, instead count on air strikes and arty fire to defeat the talibans.
for most part, i see ross kemp go on foot patrol with the infantry. The only time he in a armour vehicle was he was on a resupply convoy. why the british withheld their armour, i wont know. i can only speculate, one reason i can think of is that they are there to win over the mind and heart of the ppl, so how will the local ppl feel when a company of 10+ challengner 2 roared over their cultivated fields.
anyway, the irrigation ditches at most 2m wide, it not a problem for a challenger to cross. for your info, challenger 2 can achieve 40mph over rough terrain, one of the fastest mbt in the world.
Locke

by the way, the international forces want the ANA to bear the majority of the fighting. In the documentaries, i notice many of the ANA are not enthic afghan but look like tajiks mounting joint patrol the british forces. They are not trained, lack fire disciple and poorly equip. With so many tajiks in the ranks, it no wonder the ANA are not trusted by the local afghans.

 

[Papsmearer]

I have reasons to believe Leckmichamarsch's claims are true.

On the other hand, uncouth language used in large dose by PAPsmearer, does not make him right. It just projected him as a dirty loudmouth with NO credibility at all. :oIo:

Bronco was name-changed from ATTC.

ATTC stands for All Terrain Troop Carrier........... yet papsmearer does not know this basic fact & 1 2 argue till his fucking face turned blue.

What an ass

what do u mean by uncouth, u cocksucking, motherfucking, piece of shit that likes to lick your father's ballsack?

 

[Papsmearer]

Who gave you such authority?
Dream on you deluded dirty loudmouth

Hans, I was wondering where u were all this time. Finally took a break and came up for air after sucking your father's lancheow, I see. Say hi to the old man for me, and keep up the good work. He is very proud of you.