Suicide - An Honour?

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

well i shall say this much...it goes against the grain of human nature to take one's own life...

It take courage to commit suicide

.

 

[Sideswipe]

well i shall say this much...it goes against the grain of human nature to take one's own life...

If you never ask to be born, why can't you take your own life.

 

[Ah Guan]

What if it's NOT about finding an easy way out? What if it's self-sacrifice? Be it a form of public protest ... or act of ultimate love?

At risk of going off the tangent, didn't Mr Jesus Christ "sacrifice himself to save our sins"? Is that justifiable?

[Teekee aka VIBYOR you are banned from this thread]

 

[darememore]

suicide is never an honour no matter how romanticised the version is, be it bushido code or masada or al qaida. It is a cowardly way of terminating one's life due to selfishness; inability to face the future.

Suicidal victims that has my respect are those who chose euthanasia because they are wasting away themselves and those around them.

Those afflicted with mental diseases and killed themselves will have my compassion.

君要臣死，臣不得不死。

 

[SamuelStalin]

Suicide is for failures and losers. But, better you than me.

You and that fucking uncleyap. You ugly and worthless bastard fucks.

I came across this interesting post on suicide and thought it might be worth some discussion. All along I thought suicide was a way out for many reasons but this is second time that someone suggested it as an honour and to clear one's name. The first time I heard it was when old man suggested the same when cabinet minister Teh Cheng Wan took his own life and he was called an "honourable mandarin"

http://www.singsupplies.com/showpost.php?p=242240&postcount=41

24-05-2009, 09:18 PM
littlefish
Alfrescian Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 140
My Reputation:Points: 21 / Power: 12


Re: Breaking News Korean Ex-President Roh Jumped Mountain Suicided!

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Porfirio Rubirosa
don't come back with all this korean/jap/karate gee/sappuku BS ok...there is NO "honour" in taking the COWARD's way out by taking one's own life...you do the crime/wrong you pay for it by being properly ACCOUNTABLE and RESPONSIBLE...it is as simple as that...do not run away and leave it to the living...what you profess is warped twisted oriental cultural logic at best...

Really? Committing suicide when there is no other way to clear your name is cowardice? Only cowards who dare not take the ultimate responsibility would call others cowardly for committing suicide when they are at their wits' end. I am not talking about committing suicide because of economic woes or other difficulties. I am talking about committing suicide to take responsibility for bringing dishonour to himself, his family, his country, etc. He paid for whatever wrongdoing with his life and you say that is not being accountable and responsible. In this case, he did not cause hardship to others by ending his life. He did it to show that he is willing to pay the ultimate price and the fault is his alone.

Values like courage, honour and integrity are universally recognised and admired throughout the world, regardless of the culture. Check out this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-seven_Ronin.

Before you so readily criticise someone for taking the easy way out by committing suicide, I would like to see you try doing that. I guess people like you will run away from the enemy when you are the last man standing because you will consider charging at the enemy as suicide and taking the easy way out.

 

[Porfirio Rubirosa]

the context is important, no doubt...

What if it's NOT about finding an easy way out? What if it's self-sacrifice? Be it a form of public protest ... or act of ultimate love?


At risk of going off the tangent, didn't Mr Jesus Christ "sacrifice himself to save our sins"? Is that justifiable?

[

 

[scroobal]

My fault for not categorising the thread appropriately.

A. Suicide when facing criminal charges.
This is the central issuing involving Roh and Teh and the likes. In many cases, taking one's life is much more than what the alleged crime calls for. The issue is when others think that it is courageous or think that it is an attempt to clear one's name. That defies logic.

Seppaku has nothing to with this category but all to do with the category below. Its an honour code when they fail in a battle or when a corporate head kills himself for bringing a company down for taking the wrong direction. The Japanese do not consider it Seppaku if someone charged with a crime kills himself. It a disgrace to associate the samurai code with criminals.

Only an imbecile who is innocent of the charges laid on him will kill himself thinking that it will clear his name. Most people will consider that as an admission of guilt.


B. Suicide with a noble notion
I use the term "notion" because personally many in this category are either mislead or are misguided. There are however wonderful examples where the impact has been tremendous such as self imolating monk and the near suicidal action of the brave man with the shopping bags standing in front of a tank column in Tianamen Square. This is the category where courage is clearly evident whether misguided or not.

C. Suicide due to illness, depression, etc
This is the pitifull category where the pain both mental and physical becomes unbearable and exit is the only hope in their eyes. This is understandable and nowhere impinges on the character or integrity of the individual.

What if it's NOT about finding an easy way out? What if it's self-sacrifice? Be it a form of public protest ... or act of ultimate love?

 

[mercbenz]

sui·cide
Pronunciation: \ˈsü-ə-ˌsīd\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin sui (genitive) of oneself + English -cide; akin to Old English & Old High German sīn his, Latin suus one's own, sed, se without, Sanskrit sva oneself, one's own
Date: 1643
1 a: the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind b: ruin of one's own interests <political suicide> c: apoptosis <cell suicide>2: one that commits or attempts suicide

As the word mean to take one's own life, we cannot say in whole all suicides are honorable or all suicides are a means of going the cowardly way.

For some, it is a believe, many cultures bear stories of such ritual suicide and non as famous as the Japanese SEPPUKU, to be granted this ritual is an honor.

On the opposite side are those mothers/fathers who throw themselves off high rise buildings because of debts, and these are the cowards, so weak in mind that they failed to grasp the consequences for their family. Worst still those who killed themselves along with their favorite child.

 

[Ah Guan]

C. Suicide due to illness, depression, etc
This is the pitifull category where the pain both mental and physical becomes unbearable and exit is the only hope in their eyes. This is understandable and nowhere impinges on the character or integrity of the individual.

Hate to be pedantic, but clinical depression is not life-threatening like cancer. If we recall, the young doc (Alan something?) who killed himself in Melbourne didn't get many sympathisers in this forum.

I think mental illnesses like schizo might be a better fit in this category (although it's also non fatal).

 

[scroobal]

Agree. I suppose life-threathening is not the appropriate criteria but more the suffering. Many people kill themselves over depression because they can't see anyway out.

As a side discussion, I have always wondered if depression is a self-fulfilling prophesy fueled by modern society readly accepting it as a mental illness. I got the impression that it seems to get worse when it gets diagnosed as such when it is not.

Hate to be pedantic, but clinical depression is not life-threatening like cancer. If we recall, the young doc (Alan something?) who killed himself in Melbourne didn't get many sympathisers in this forum.

I think mental illnesses like schizo might be a better fit in this category (although it's also non fatal).

 

[littlefish]

Scroobal and Porfirio Rubirosa seem to be alter egos of the same person. Attack one and you will inevitably draw the other out in defence of the one attacked.

I will just post on this topic one last time as your views differ from mine and there is no point arguing on this further.

I gave the example of the 47 ronin. They knew they were committing a crime when they took revenge as revenge was outlawed during their time. The punishment was death and they certainly knew that will be the outcome but they still went ahead so they stuck to the bushido (even though there was criticism that they should have taken revenge immediately rather than waiting a year).

What I said about clearing one's name is that there are 2 possibilities:
1) Admission of guilt - The person understands that he did wrong and is using the death to pay for his wrongdoing, hoping that it will save his family further embarrassment. Society tends to view a debt as cleared when a person dies. What don't you get about this, I don't know.

2) Denial of guilt - The person does not think he did anything wrong and was either being pressured to desperation or holding himself to high standards, commits suicide due to shame. Social pressure can be such that even if you are finally proven innocent, you will still be treated as an outcast. Haven't you read those stories of rape victims wanting to end their lives even though it is entirely not their fault? Social bias is a very fearful thing just like what people like to do in this forum. Why else do you think that rape victims cannot be named? How many people will trust a person accused of grave sexual crimes even if he was ultimately acquitted? Many would quote the saying there is no smoke without fire.

Other than my above points, I will still stick to my stand that it is extremely cowardly to character assassinate a dead person. You may castigate a dead person for being a monster for committing such and such crimes but do you actually know the person enough to comment on his character just by a single act of suicide (much less someone who is dead and cannot respond to your allegations)? To me, that is no better than what the PAP does frequently and most Singaporeans are too naive to see through this tactic.

 

[littlefish]

to me i guess it all boils down to what you mean by "escape more severe punishment"...as an ex president, is Roh's 'face and skin' too thin to bear the shame of standing trial and thereafter going to prison and thereafter having to live with a criminal record?...you assume that to Roh his act of suicide is a "more severe punishment" to him...is that really the case?...

to me the same question is also applicable to Teh's case...

Fear of more severe punishment means punishment worse than suicide, like maybe, hanging, electric chair, torture, similar punishment extended to family members, etc. In modern day SK, I don't think the punishment will be worse than suicide, which is why I do not think it applies in this case. For shame factor, I have discussed it in my post above.

 

[SamuelStalin]

No, Sporn fuck. Sacrifice is NOT suicide ie losing one's life trying to save the lives of all others on board.

Public protest is worthless. To kill yourself for a public protest, is the DUMBEST thing to do. You will go to hell for sure.

And you are not that great either to try to justify and encourage suicide. Better encourage yourself instead. Yes, you should end your life killing yourself you spastic suicide-loving ugly worthless maggot.

What if it's NOT about finding an easy way out? What if it's self-sacrifice? Be it a form of public protest ... or act of ultimate love?

At risk of going off the tangent, didn't Mr Jesus Christ "sacrifice himself to save our sins"? Is that justifiable?

[Teekee aka VIBYOR you are banned from this thread]