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Chitchat Shanmugam or Parliament

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Why even bother having a Parliament when Shanmugam prefers to call NMPs who have concerns about the Proposed Administration of Justice Bill and discussing matters in private. The 3 NMPs, amongst them a Law Academic had enough concerns to raise 14 amendments. No one has any idea what Shanmugam said but it was enough to convince them to withdraw all 14 amendments and support the bill. He also spoke to Lee Wei Ling who is also a medical academic and a President Scholar who had similar concerns. She qualified clearly which part she accepted. The media in this case both SPH and MediaCorp, the state's duopoly however chose to interpret it as an unqualified acceptance of the total bill.

Here are things that we all should be concerned about

1) Why is the Minister of Law usurping the powers of Parliament. Why the need for private discussions and not disclosing what what was said. Minutes of the discussion would be welcome as nothing in it suggest going into matters of State secret.

2) The 3 NMPs including a University academic having come up with 14 amendments chose not to say what changed their mind except for Ms Kuik who gave a response in her Facebook that never provided any clarity except that Shanmugam convinced them.

3) What happens when Shanmugam leaves God's green's earth. Who is going to interpret the law? 4 people - 3 NMPs and daughter of Singapore's founding father could not work out the Bill themselves. I would suggest that we are talking about people who are reasonably qualified to address the issues amongst them includes 2 university academics and one of whom is in Law.

4) No one is exactly clear or even knows what triggered in the Bill in the first place. We have charged people numerous times in court for contempt of Court so why the new bill. I bet if 10 people were picked at random by a blind person in the middle of Raffles Place and asked if they know what triggered the bill, none of them would have a clue. But all 10 can give a reasonable answers if the question was on the littering laws

5) I think we all recognised that this Law is best ambiguous but to does makes it clear that the Govt can defend itself in the name of "public interest". Unfortunately an individual may fear doing it even if it is in "Public Interest" especially if the Minister leaves this World.

It does resonate with Lee Wei Ling's and her journalist contact's observation about the lack of transparency of this Government compared to the past 2 Governments.
 

Satyr

Alfrescian
Loyal
The word bullying comes to mind. Who wants to take a bet the 4 NMPs won't bother to carry on. That is the only decent thing to do if you feel you cannot be effective.
 

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
4) No one is exactly clear or even knows what triggered in the Bill in the first place. We have charged people numerous times in court for contempt of Court so why the new bill. I bet if 10 people were picked at random by a blind person in the middle of Raffles Place and asked if they know what triggered the bill, none of them would have a clue. But all 10 can give a reasonable answers if the question was on the littering laws



Probably triggered by spate of graft charges against public servants in recent years as well as the City Harvest Con Hee trial during which there was heated debate on the internet. I would say, many times netizens caused embarrassment to the authorities. Also, if cases like Teo Soh Lung's cooling day breach go to trial, there would be an outrage across the board, so they are trying to pre-empt that.

What we know for sure is that this bill has a clear political agenda which is abundantly clear even to journalists who have never lived in Singapore.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
My circle of contacts suggest that it had to do with the 2 lawyers and their remarks over the hanging case last minute attempt to get an appeal going plus the Benjamin suicide case case where it intends to protect the govt who want to clarify prior to the conclusion of court or coroner's proceedings. I am actually fine with addressing both incidents in the way they were addressed without his ambiguous piece of legislation.

See no one real knows why this law. But we all know that we are all entering a dangerous territory.

Probably triggered by spate of graft charges against public servants in recent years as well as the City Harvest Con Hee trial during which there was heated debate on the internet. I would say, many times netizens caused embarrassment to the authorities. Also, if cases like Teo Soh Lung's cooling day breach go to trial, there would be an outrage across the board, so they are trying to pre-empt that.

What we know for sure is that this bill has a clear political agenda which is abundantly clear even to journalists who have never lived in Singapore.
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Agree. We had 2 precedents. Catherine Lim over public discourse and Viswa Sadasivam in his Parliamentary speech on Raja's pledge. Both events set the country back 10 years each time. Viswa in a follow-up under Chatham House rules spoke his mind and the take was it was not worth it.

The word bullying comes to mind. Who wants to take a bet the 4 NMPs won't bother to carry on. That is the only decent thing to do if you feel you cannot be effective.
 

shittypore

Alfrescian
Loyal
What we know for sure is that this bill has a clear political agenda which is abundantly clear even to journalists who have never lived in Singapore.[/QUOTE]

As the next Erection gets closer, can expect more Bills to be approve by Parliament to protect the Familee's interest.
 

batman1

Alfrescian
Loyal
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.Nothing much to say and nothing can be done.
Singapore have become more authoritarian and dictatorial and corrupt...thanks to the 70%.
To the 70%,u reaped what u sowed.Retribution will befall u sooner or later.
 

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
My circle of contacts suggest that it had to do with the 2 lawyers and their remarks over the hanging case last minute attempt to get an appeal going plus the Benjamin suicide case case where it intends to protect the govt who want to clarify prior to the conclusion of court or coroner's proceedings. I am actually fine with addressing both incidents in the way they were addressed without his ambiguous piece of legislation.

See no one real knows why this law. But we all know that we are all entering a dangerous territory.

Just to clarify, contempt laws also apply to coroner's inquiries? Yes, makes sense that benjamin lim's case must have tipped their hand. Though it take 9 months to a year to conceive and then bring a bill to parliament, so BL might be a strong catalyst but not the primary catalyst
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Yes, also applies to Coroner's Court.

Just to clarify, contempt laws also apply to coroner's inquiries? Yes, makes sense that benjamin lim's case must have tipped their hand. Though it take 9 months to a year to conceive and then bring a bill to parliament, so BL might be a strong catalyst but not the primary catalyst
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
The UK repealed the Law 3 years ago but Singapore enhances it. And look at Shanmugam's weak argument.

http://news.asiaone.com/news/singapore/minister-slams-uk-high-comm-improper-commentsLaw minister K. Shanmugam has rapped the British High Commission for improper comments.

Law Minister K. Shanmugam has rapped the British High Commission here for urging countries, including Singapore, to abolish the offence of scandalising the judiciary - and accused it of improperly trying to influence parliamentary debate.

He said it was "quite astonishing" that the British High Commission should try to give Singapore advice to follow Britain in abolishing its laws on scandalising the judiciary, and questioned if the commission was aware of the facts that led to Britain's own decision to scrap them.

What is the new Bill about?
The Administration of Justice (Protection) Bill seeks to put current law on contempt in statutory form.

It sets out maximum penalties in a move to provide greater clarity and certainty.

What is different?
The threshold for being in contempt by scandalising the court has been lowered.

How long did discussions take?
Calls to include it in the statute were first made 6 years ago in January 2010.

Singapore today is in a different position from Britain when it did so in 2013, he said.

"We are upholding standards that have gone down in Britain; standards which have gone down, and have led to a loss of respect and coarsening of society."

The British High Commission told Reuters last Friday that Britain "will continue to urge Singapore and all countries which retain 'Scandalising the Judiciary' to abolish it".

Mr Shanmugam said Britain had to abolish the offence three years ago because its judiciary had "lost the deferential respect it used to enjoy", as evidenced by plentiful online material hurling abuse at the judges.

"The offence had limited symbolic value, as everyone was scandalising the court anyway. It was happening frequently, and was rarely prosecuted."

And while the offence was also "in principle an infringement of freedom of expression" - a basic right under the European Convention on Human Rights - the key reason for abolishing it was that the court's standing was already damaged in the public's view, said Mr Shanmugam.

Such damaged reputation has affected the British judiciary and its work, said the minister, quoting from a 2014 survey of all serving and salaried judges there.

Nearly two in three had said members of the judiciary there were less respected by society compared to a decade ago, and more than half felt the way they were portrayed in the media, and public misunderstanding of the judiciary were factors driving this change. Falling judicial morale has also made it harder for Britain to recruit and retain judges, especially senior ones.

But Singapore does not have this problem as it tries to retain the prestige of the judiciary, keeps it well-resourced, protects it from being scandalised, and ensures its judges are paid properly, said Mr Shanmugam.

"We are in a healthy, good and enviable position, and we are not about to short-change our judiciary," he said. "We are not struggling, or swimming against the tide of public opinion, as Britain was."

He added: "Did the British High Commissioner know these facts when the advice was offered? If the High Commissioner knew the facts, then that does not speak well of them because we are not in the position Britain found itself in."

Mr Shanmugam said that when Singapore's Foreign Ministry asked why the British High Commission made the remarks, High Commissioner Scott Wightman said it was a reply by his press officer to Reuters' query, and was not specific to Singapore.

Said Mr Shanmugam: "With the deepest respect to the High Commissioner, one can only say there is considerable disingenuity in that answer. If you want to intervene and make a comment, then at least have the courage of your conviction and not beat a hasty retreat at the first question."

He added: "Did the British High Commission see fit to make such comments to the Australians? To the New Zealanders? To the Irish? They also criminalise scandalising the court."

When contacted, the British High Commission declined further comment.

- See more at: http://news.asiaone.com/news/singap...h-comm-improper-comments#sthash.bglfekSv.dpuf
 

scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Good article on it.

http://themiddleground.sg/2016/08/16/contempt-court-bill-shan-versus-wp-brits-thrown/
Contempt of Court Bill: Shan versus WP – with the Brits thrown in
Aug 16, 2016 07.56PM | Wan Ting Koh linkedin

by Wan Ting Koh

IT TOOK some seven hours of debate before the Administration of Justice Bill was put to the vote. Not just a voice vote but a division which required every MP to say yes, no or abstain. Nineteen MPs, including five Opposition MPs and four NMPs rose to speak on the Bill, which the G said was to codify the law on contempt and which critics countered was an attempt to muzzle criticism.

Introduced in Parliament last month, the Bill pulls together disparate laws on contempt now based on common law or previous rulings. It covers three main aspects: disobeying court orders, publishing material that interferes with on-going judicial proceedings and making allegations of bias against the judges.

It has since stirred much comment, with three NMPs – Assistant Professor Mahdev Mohan, Mr Kok Heng Leun and Ms Kuik Shiao-Yin – submitting a petition for 14 amendments to the Bill which were withdrawn after the debate. In all, 72 MPs including all the NMPs, voted in favour. All the nine WP MPs said no.

The real change, which Home Affairs and Law Minister K Shanmugam admitted to, was the concept of “risk” and “real risk”, which NMP Mahdev and WP MPs Dennis Tan and Sylvia Low said would lower the threshold for scandalising the court, as the court no longer had to take into account whether the risk posted by the offending state was “real” or not.

Assistant Professor Mahdev asked if there was a proper distinction between real risk and risk, or if the Bill may be “moving backwards to a test which has a lower threshold by only using the word ‘risk'”. The MPs referred to past precedents which put a higher threshold on the offence.

Mr Shanmugam acknowledged the change from “real risk” to one of “risk”. While it is a reasonable view that lawmakers should stick to what the courts have said, he added that the executive “is uniquely placed to take a broader policy perspective, including how we develop or how we should protect” the judiciary.

“The courts fundamentally are engaged not in a policy exercise: They don’t weigh up economic considerations, the larger social policy considerations, they look very narrowly at case law and say this is the law,” he added.

Said Mr Shanmugam: “If one calls a Judge a ‘biased swine’, then let us not have arguments as to whether he only risked undermining the sanctity of the Judiciary, as opposed to whether he really risked undermining the sanctity of the Judiciary.” So yes, the G was going on the offensive to maintain the sanctity and reputation of the judiciary.

Mr Shanmugam’s most aggressive statements, however, were directed at the British High Commission rather than parliamentary critics. The high commission had on Friday released a statement urging countries, including Singapore, to abolish laws relating to scandalising the judiciary. The minister questioned the timing of the statement – “quite improper” – on the weekend before the Bill was due to be debated in Parliament. Was Britain trying to influence the debate, he asked.

While Britain had itself abolished the law, it did so under undesirable circumstances, he said. Contempt had spiralled to the point that the British Judiciary was no longer respected as “everyone was scandalising the court anyway”.

Said Mr Shanmugam: “The Law Commission, reluctantly, recommended that the offence of scandalising the Courts be abolished, because the situation had gotten to a stage where it was no longer possible to reverse what was happening.”

In his speech, which lasted an hour, he reiterated that the Bill was a mere codification of the common law, with maximum penalties identified.

PAP MPs spoke in support of the Bill, agreeing that it was needed to prevent unfair influence of court proceedings and to provide greater clarity and certainty as to what constituted contempt of court.

But the opposition had several points which Mr Shanmugam had to respond to.



Existing law is sufficient

The five Workers’ Party MPs who spoke were unanimous in asserting that the current law was adequate to deal with cases of contempt.

Said Mr Leon Perera (NCMP): “There has not been a rash of cases that make administration of the common law position on contempt of court difficult.”

WP chief Low Thia Kiang (Aljunied GRC) said that there was “no evidence to say that the current law is not effective”.

In his reply, Mr Shanmugam said that crystallising the law in writing would make it less confusing to the public. And he has yet to hear a single argument on why he should not crystallise the law.



Restricts freedom of speech

Said Mr Pritam Singh (Aljunied GRC): “For most lay Singaporeans, the reality is that criticising policies and the facts central to a pending case will inevitably overlap to varying degrees. That is the very nature of public communication and for the common man, it is not easy to always neatly differentiate between the two. Surely there is a place for fair comment and criticism of pending cases and it does not necessarily follow that freedom of speech has to be curtailed as a result.”

NMP Ms Kuik said: “The overriding interest that many young Singaporeans have in this Bill is how it impacts their freedom of speech. Their questions sound like this: ‘But what if the guy in Government gets it wrong?’ Isn’t there always a possibility that those in power will get what’s in the public interest wrong some of the time? And if one of us regular guys can see it and wants to point it out to them, shouldn’t we get a safe space to do so as well without fear of being labelled as the enemy of the courts or worse, the enemy of the state?”

Speaking in Mandarin, Mr Low said: “According to the term ‘publication’, even private talk, be it expressing your opinion to friends on Facebook, or talking or sending a message to another person, can be contempt of court. Ordinary citizens talking about case in a coffee shop might infringe contempt of court and may be liable for prosecution.”

To allegations of infringing freedom of speech, Mr Shanmugam argued that the law remains the same as it is before and after the Bill. He asked members to point out which clause impacted democracy more than it did already.

He said: “You can comment on policies, you can debate public issues. What you cannot do is to say something that actually prejudices a specific case, or has a serious, real risk of prejudicing a specific case…That legal position has worked well for us all these years.”



No need for such harsh penalties

NCMP Dennis Tan said that the proposed maximum punishments in the Bill, a fine of up to $100,000 and jail of up to three years, “far exceed” current practices.

Citing the case of Briton Alan Shadrake, which the judge described as the worst case of contempt Singapore has ever faced, he pointed out that Shadrake was only given a sentence of six weeks’ jail and fined $20,000 in 2010, far less than the maximum penalty proposed by the Bill.

Said his fellow WP MP Pritam Singh: “If Alan Shadrake stands for the worst case of scandalising contempt in Singapore’s 51-year history, how can the Government justify increasing the prison term and fine by such a wide margin?”

Mr Perera gave examples of past cases where fines ranged between $5,000 and $10,000. He was concerned that such penalties would now be viewed as the minimum threshold: “The result for our democracy from the passage of this Bill and the attendant publicity could well be that no one who does not have $100,000 in cash to spare will dare speak up about any issue where there is even the slightest risk or perceived risk of prosecution under this law.”

To those who opposed the maximum punishment for being “too harsh”, Mr Shanmugam said that there was an “unhealthy obsession with one aspect of contempt”.

He said that Mr Tan had been focusing on the aspect of scandalising the court, rather than the “totality of contempt”, which included those who disobey court orders. Mr Shanmugam raised the example of a man defaulting on payment to his ex-wife or a party who, despite court orders to freeze accounts, continues to draw funds and does it repeatedly, saying that more serious punishments should suffice in these cases.

As for maximum penalties, Mr Shanmugam said it is up to the court to decide how to mete out penalties depending on the seriousness of the offence based on facts. “Previously, it was unlimited, and today, if the Bill is passed, once it comes into force, it will be limited. And that’s a change to be welcomed.”



Creates a police state

Ms Sylvia Lim (Aljunied GRC) questioned the need to rope in policemen: “In recent years, we have been talking so much about the heavy workload and manpower shortages faced by the Police. Why are we getting them involved in yet another non-core function, when they should be focusing on keeping us safe from rockets from Batam?”

Mr Pritam Singh (Aljunied GRC), perhaps referring to a recent case where civil activist Teo Soh Lung had her computers confiscated by policemen, said: “Making sub-judice contempt arrestable… and thereby giving the police powers to confiscate personal computers amongst other things appears to be specifically targeted at civil society activists who are not afraid to challenge the Government, and who play their part in serving Singapore by contributing to a diverse public space of voices and views.”

In reply, Mr Shanmugam asked Ms Lim to point out which part of the Bill turns Singapore into a police state. “Contempt has always been an offence. Contempt has always been investigated by the police with leave of the Attorney-General, and now that we are putting it into statute, who else but the police can investigate an offence?”



Casts shadow of fear

Ms Lim used strong words while speaking out against the Bill, claiming that it was mere “state machinery to intimidate Singaporeans”. Adding to that, Associate Professor Daniel Goh (NCMP) said that the Bill cast a “chilling effect” on citizens and would “scare the public into silence”.

Said Dr Goh: “Scaring the citizens into silence is not something any Government should want because it breeds an inner contempt for the authorities and our public institutions.”

To this, Mr Shanmugam said that the supposed “chilling effect” would be the same before and after the Bill is passed in Parliament, and that only those who wish to make accusations against the court and judges everyday would feel it.

Parliamentary critics insisted that the Bill was not a mere crystalisation and codification as Mr Shanmugam had portrayed. Besides the lower threshold for scandalising the judiciary, Ms Lim also referred to the “draconian enforcement muscle being given to the government” and the “new power” given to the AG to issue a “non-publication direction”. The new power gives the AG the authority to stop a person or website from publishing something, if it is satisfied that it is in the public interest to do so, she said.

Mr Shanmugam added in his second reading speech that the Bill would provide a “fast remedy that would allow contemptuous material to be removed before widespread harm is caused.” However, the publisher may contest the order by applying to court and if the court agrees, the publisher is free to publish the material again.



Heated exchanges
Ms Sylvia Lim “Are we not using a sledgehammer to kill an ant? It would be intimidating not just to persons on the receiving end of such investigations but to society at large. The upshot of reducing the role of the courts and investing draconian powers in the executive is to leave Singaporeans at the mercy of administrative discretion. We would be one step closer to being a police state. Are we an exceptional nation when we say that our professionally trained judges need to be protected from public opinion? Are we an exceptional nation by making Government officials exempt from contempt laws? To me, these are matters we should be ashamed of. By all means, uphold respect for the administration of justice but laws which protect the ruling elites at the expense of ordinary Singaporeans have no place in this House.”
Mr Shanmugam: “I think people who know me know that I am quite careful about what I say … I know exactly what I’m saying. And if I am guilty of contempt then, this law is not going to help me. If I am not guilty of contempt, this law is completely irrelevant. And if Ms Lim believes that I committed contempt, (you) don’t have to wait for the law – put up a complaint to the Attorney-General.”
_____
Mr Shanmugam: “If you want to put up a conspiracy theory, I think you’ve got to try harder. And we don’t normally take six years. The reason we didn’t push on with the Bill is very simple.
“As I said, even in the absence of the Bill, the law is there.
“But it’s just that it’s better for it to be in writing because… it’s the only criminal law not set out in statute…”
Directing his comments specifically at Mr Perera later, the Law Minister said: “I didn’t know you’d consider six years to be a rush to legislate. It’s slow by our Government’s standards…
 

borom

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
The saddest part is that the 70% continue plodding along with both parents needing to work to make ends meet and hopefully pay off their mortgage when they retire-many with not enough CPF for the Full Retirement Sum and need to re-mortgage their overpriced pigeon holes back to CPF for a lower Basic retirement Sum.
Imagine having to re-mortgage your property at retirement-will such people have time to think about Contempt of Court ?
More likely worried about drop in property prices -in case they voted in the so called "wrong people ".
Sounds like INTIMIDATION at work again!
 
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scroobal

Alfrescian
Loyal
Another good read. Note the bundling strategy of putting good and bad policies together.


http://themiddleground.sg/2016/08/17/contempt-of-court-bill-nmps-reasons-retreat-really-wanting/
Contempt of Court Bill: NMPs’ reasons for retreat really wanting
Aug 17, 2016 05.00PM | Daniel Yap linkedin

by Daniel Yap

THE Administration of Justice (Protection) Bill was passed – that was never in question with PAP’s supermajority in the House. But even after two of the three NMPs came forward to explain in TODAY why they withdrew their proposed amendments and voted for the Bill (the third, Mr Kok Heng Leun, wrote about it on Facebook), the reasoning still seems incomplete.

The only law-trained NMP of the three, Mr Mahdev Mohan, said that his concerns about the Bill were adequately satisfied by Law Minister K Shanmugam’s clarifications. Ms Kuik Shiao-Yin, however, described her decision to withdraw the amendments as an “agreement about what was the most strategic collective decision”, even though her “perspective and reasons” were different from the other two NMPs.

Mr Kok shared on Facebook that he voted in favour of the Bill “to honour the negotiation and discussion” – the good faith that had been built up by engagement with the Law Minister – and after receiving assurances in Parliament that the broadly-worded law would not be abused. He did this even though he still had misgivings about the wording of the Bill.

It seems that trust was the filler for the gaps that remain in the reasoning. Perhaps the seven-hour debate wearied some – it certainly wearied me.

On the first point of the change from “real risk” to “risk”, Mr Shanmugam’s assertion that it is only a “small, narrow change” that mattered to lawyers.

This, however, is inconsistent with the fact that the removal of the word “real” really lowers the burden of proof for anyone to be charged or convicted under the law. The lowered threshold has direct implications on how people should speak. No questions were raised about why this only mattered to lawyers, and it is a shame we still don’t know.

On the second point of the NMPs’ proposal to insert a clause that said a publication (in legal terms this refers to anything said or written by anyone, not just publishers), discussing a case in good faith would not be considered sub judice.

TODAY reports that Mr Shanmugam said: “The moment you allow discussion on a pending case as long as it is (in) public interest, what you’re saying is that it’s okay for the trial to be prejudiced.” However, this seems to contradict Mr Kok’s Facebook post, which said that Mr Shanmugam replied in the affirmative to the question by Ms Kuik about whether publications made in good faith and not really risking prejudice to court proceedings (I summarise), would be excluded from sub judice contempt.

On the third point, the NMPs had taken issue with how the law gave power to the G to be the final arbiter on how to use its unbridled power of free comment on ongoing cases. They were apparently satisfied with the answer that the courts could hold the G accountable, even though that was not included in the Bill.

What is worrying is that Mr Shanmugam’s gamble paid off so easily. The new law included a popular and needed clause – the first part about being able to better enforce court orders. That was lumped together with the controversial scandalising and sub-judice clauses and it clearly caused some like Mr Kok to waver in their opposition to the Bill.

Such a strategy of bundling popular and unpopular laws in policymaking is useful to ease the passage of controversial laws but runs the risk of a needful law being held up in Parliament while its more widely-opposed clauses get debated (the vote, however, was a foregone conclusion). This was not the case this time, and Mr Shanmugam employed the strategy to great effect this week.

It is also clear that there is a huge cachet of trust that the NMPs have for Mr Shanmugam and the G if he was able to persuade them so easily. Trust is not a bad thing, but to let it replace robust debate and clear-minded lawmaking saps the essence of Parliament and the NMP scheme
 

searcher1

Alfrescian
Loyal
Can any Law Expert please explain in layman term, what is this Bill about ?
What trigger & why initiate it ?
 

batman1

Alfrescian
Loyal
Shamu talked so much with a forked tongue without logic and rational basis .Some lawyers also don't know what he is talking about.Shanmu has overriden the checks and balances of the executive,judiciary and legislature.Contempt of court should be decided by the judiciary and NOT by the government.Well,the 70 % have allowed the government to tighen the noose around their necks.Retribution will befall on your actions.You timid sinkees reaped what u sowed.
 
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