Property News

[FHBH12]

This is a good observation on the 2 groups. But I think there is a middle group which I belong to. Those that can afford to pay the monthly instalment and hold on to the property for as long as possible but yet not rich to the point of writing off the Iskandar property as a bad investment (which the 1st group can due to their higher financial wealth).

I'm in the position now of question if it makes sense any more to hold on to the property and pay my monthly bank loan+condo maintenance fees of S$1300 when I'm not staying there and in the worst case scenario, when there is no tenant at all for the next many years to come.

If I can summarise, based on what I've learnt so far, buying Iskandar properties (especially condos) is safe only if buyers wants to live in them or they have enough money to not feel the pinch in case they lose a few hundred thousand dollars. For investment, it is usually a No-no or unless one is willing to take on very high risks.

Just treat the installment as buying a car.

 

[sgcount]

Some have said the SG government have exaggerated by painting a bleak picture of Iskandar's doom and gloom. But I would also question if they are painting the Singapore's situation as worse than it really is?

I've heard about hospital bed shortage. And I think we all know the high cost of living in SG.

But this is not something that has happened overnight, and based on the general sentiments I've gathered so far from the many people around me, they still continue to believe in the "Singapore Story". My colleagues and relatives are very confident and assured of the healthcare system here. Education may be stressful but everyone continues to send their kids to local schools here.

Foreigners I meet at my workplace never fail to tell me how lucky I am to be a Singaporean. One Indian national has just become PR, another one has her family here and dreams of becoming a citizen soon. While for PRC, I have quite a number of them at my workplace and as my neighbours. They are all converted to Singaporeans, happily settled down in their HDB flats, their kids speak like Singaporeans, and they go to local schools.

Despite the high costs of living and small apartment spaces, out of curiosity, I asked some of my friends and foreigner colleagues if they would like to settle down in Iskandar. All immediately gave me a big NO.

I have 5 colleagues who have done LASIK eye surgery. 1 went to JB the other 4 went to clinics in Singapore. When I ask the 4 why didn't they consider going to JB as it's so much cheaper, like 1/2 price, all gave me the ridiculously scared look! Huh? JB?!! No way.

I think confidence in a well-established system and strong government is very important for them.

In that sense, I don't think Singaporeans are ready any time soon in the next few decades to move over to Iskandar to live.

I don't understand the part where some here say Singapore will slowly degenerate as hospital bills become expensive, flats are getting smaller and unaffordable or that the attraction to live here is dropping.

I have a few friends who have all made money from even public housing, aka HDB flats. Those who bought their flats back in the early 2000 for say S$250,000, their flats were sold for S$600,000. Profit: S$350,000. Those who bought 5-6 year ago at S$500,000, some buyers are already asking for high S$600,000 even in this slow economy. Profit: close to S$200,000.

No offence to those who have bought Puteri Harbour. Based on the current situation, I highly doubt even those freehold, highly priced condos there can command such a huge capital appreciation within just a few years.

So I'm not sure if it's all doom and gloom in SG also. (Note: I'm not a government supporter! Just thinking aloud about the situation in SG. It doesn't seem as bad as some make it out to be.)

Maybe it really boils down to personal preference on the kind of life one would like to have. But as I've said, I am slowly appreciating the general agreement here that investing in Iskandar properties is a high risk one has to have the financial means to absorb.

 

[cow138]

Buying property is just a matter of holding power.
All asset prices rise.
Holding cash is probably the worse thing that you can do if you are in a position to loan from the bank to do investment.

So whether investing in Johor can make money or not is just a matter of time. Whether the timeframe is within your acceptable range or not depends on individual.

 

[Tekkun]

Buying property is just a matter of holding power.
All asset prices rise.
Holding cash is probably the worse thing that you can do if you are in a position to loan from the bank to do investment.

So whether investing in Johor can make money or not is just a matter of time. Whether the timeframe is within your acceptable range or not depends on individual.

It is a brutal game.

 

[snowbird]

If the cost of staying and treatment at Medini Gleneagels is indeed that much cheaper than in Singapore, water finds it own level and Spore hospitals will be doomed. They should already have foreseen it, given the lousy amenties anda low class standard and super long waiting times. I cant forget the scene when I visited my mum in Tan Tock Seng and saw her lying on a bed ALONG THE CORRIDOR. Its like in Rwanda. Singapore is getting more and more low class.

The Medini Gleneagles was probably built to cater to the middle class who can't afford the more expensive Gleneagles in SG. The rich and famous, the royals and the well off locals and foreign clients will still go for treatment in SG where world class specialists are stationed. A really good hospital is when they have the best equipment and the best doctors there. Can Medini Gleneagles attract as many specialists there, will they be equipped with the latest sophisticated cutting edge equipment, hard to say, so it will be at most as good as a local public hospital and well, meant for the middle income group.
Medini together with Puteri Harbor in a few years time may be more bustling but at most that area can transform into something like the Sai Kung Village in Hongkong.
Like Sai Kung, its far from the city and yet within the Hongkong territories, there with many good class housing there and even a marina parked with yachts yet no one really bothers about this place except going there for the beach or seafood on weekends. So like Sai Kung, with poor public transport and the distance, casual visit to Medini/Puteri harbor is a chore and in years to come, Medini/Puteri Harbor can at most only as bustling as Sai Kung.

 

[sgcount]

Buying property is just a matter of holding power.
All asset prices rise.
Holding cash is probably the worse thing that you can do if you are in a position to loan from the bank to do investment.

So whether investing in Johor can make money or not is just a matter of time. Whether the timeframe is within your acceptable range or not depends on individual.

Actually, I did discuss this issue with several people. The conclusion we get is that in a well-established city or country, it makes sense to have holding power when investing in properties. Sometimes, market may be weak. But the confidence is there for it to spring back up again in future.

But my Malaysian colleagues warned me that for JB and Iskandar, it's a totally different ball game altogether. Even after 10 long years, the properties may remain stagnant in price.

So they reasoned to me that in the event that my condo has no tenant for many years, or that I have to fork out a few hundred $ every month to top up for the loan installment, at the end of 10 years, I could be losing money even if the property is sold at cost. I also risk the weak currency exposure. Worst case scenario is there may not be any buyer at all because by then, there could be many properties still on sale, given the vast land available in Iskandar.

So general sentiment I get now is, buy for own stay or just keep it but must be able to take the risks that come with it. Basically it's money spent without expecting any return for some time. It's highly not advisable if buying solely for investment.

But not many can just buy and keep a property I think. Except for some bros here who are already retired with good wealth or already dabbled and made their millions in other investments. Cos to lose a few hundred thousand dollars is not a small matter to the commoner.

 

[xebay11]

Deleted double post.

 

[xebay11]

I would love a 7 room property.

Yah me too, 1 room for each JB XLP per day. Wife in SG dunno ha ha ha ha.

 

[xebay11]

Actually, I did discuss this issue with several people. The conclusion we get is that in a well-established city or country, it makes sense to have holding power when investing in properties. Sometimes, market may be weak. But the confidence is there for it to spring back up again in future.

But my Malaysian colleagues warned me that for JB and Iskandar, it's a totally different ball game altogether. Even after 10 long years, the properties may remain stagnant in price.

So they reasoned to me that in the event that my condo has no tenant for many years, or that I have to fork out a few hundred $ every month to top up for the loan installment, at the end of 10 years, I could be losing money even if the property is sold at cost. I also risk the weak currency exposure. Worst case scenario is there may not be any buyer at all because by then, there could be many properties still on sale, given the vast land available in Iskandar.

So general sentiment I get now is, buy for own stay or just keep it but must be able to take the risks that come with it. Basically it's money spent without expecting any return for some time. It's highly not advisable if buying solely for investment.

But not many can just buy and keep a property I think. Except for some bros here who are already retired with good wealth or already dabbled and made their millions in other investments. Cos to lose a few hundred thousand dollars is not a small matter to the commoner.

Bro since you have already committed, my only advise is try to sell now, if you can, recover costs, better. If you cannot sell at good price, then hold, but all depends on your financial background, investment profile and gumption for risk. If you can afford to hold and do not want to make any kind of losses then hold for own stay. Your Malaysian colleagues have already informed you well, they live there and can best advise you better than any weekend Singapore warrior investors. They have basically painted a scenario which I was posting about all about along in the PH thread and here.

The thing about buying properties in large countries, especially in a developing place like Iskandar, they have lots of land for development, if one place starts to develop and make money, you can be sure other developments would spring up, so CA is very hard.

 

[xebay11]

Some have said the SG government have exaggerated by painting a bleak picture of Iskandar's doom and gloom. But I would also question if they are painting the Singapore's situation as worse than it really is?

I've heard about hospital bed shortage. And I think we all know the high cost of living in SG.

But this is not something that has happened overnight, and based on the general sentiments I've gathered so far from the many people around me, they still continue to believe in the "Singapore Story". My colleagues and relatives are very confident and assured of the healthcare system here. Education may be stressful but everyone continues to send their kids to local schools here.

Foreigners I meet at my workplace never fail to tell me how lucky I am to be a Singaporean. One Indian national has just become PR, another one has her family here and dreams of becoming a citizen soon. While for PRC, I have quite a number of them at my workplace and as my neighbours. They are all converted to Singaporeans, happily settled down in their HDB flats, their kids speak like Singaporeans, and they go to local schools.

Despite the high costs of living and small apartment spaces, out of curiosity, I asked some of my friends and foreigner colleagues if they would like to settle down in Iskandar. All immediately gave me a big NO.

I have 5 colleagues who have done LASIK eye surgery. 1 went to JB the other 4 went to clinics in Singapore. When I ask the 4 why didn't they consider going to JB as it's so much cheaper, like 1/2 price, all gave me the ridiculously scared look! Huh? JB?!! No way.

I think confidence in a well-established system and strong government is very important for them.

In that sense, I don't think Singaporeans are ready any time soon in the next few decades to move over to Iskandar to live.

I don't understand the part where some here say Singapore will slowly degenerate as hospital bills become expensive, flats are getting smaller and unaffordable or that the attraction to live here is dropping.

I have a few friends who have all made money from even public housing, aka HDB flats. Those who bought their flats back in the early 2000 for say S$250,000, their flats were sold for S$600,000. Profit: S$350,000. Those who bought 5-6 year ago at S$500,000, some buyers are already asking for high S$600,000 even in this slow economy. Profit: close to S$200,000.

No offence to those who have bought Puteri Harbour. Based on the current situation, I highly doubt even those freehold, highly priced condos there can command such a huge capital appreciation within just a few years.

So I'm not sure if it's all doom and gloom in SG also. (Note: I'm not a government supporter! Just thinking aloud about the situation in SG. It doesn't seem as bad as some make it out to be.)

Maybe it really boils down to personal preference on the kind of life one would like to have. But as I've said, I am slowly appreciating the general agreement here that investing in Iskandar properties is a high risk one has to have the financial means to absorb.

Good comment, especially about public health care, say what you want, even if heart bypass is 107% cheaper in JB, I think I rather like the option of being able to wake up after the operation. As for cheap noodles and bak kut teh, JB is alright.

The best option for Singaporeans with high currency advantage, either going in and out of JB to get necesseties, staying over the weekend, or renting condos is a good compromise.

 

[sgcount]

Bro since you have already committed, my only advise is try to sell now, if you can, recover costs, better. If you cannot sell at good price, then hold, but all depends on your financial background, investment profile and gumption for risk. If you can afford to hold and do not want to make any kind of losses then hold for own stay. Your Malaysian colleagues have already informed you well, they live there and can best advise you better than any weekend Singapore warrior investors. They have basically painted a scenario which I was posting about all about along in the PH thread and here.

The thing about buying properties in large countries, especially in a developing place like Iskandar, they have lots of land for development, if one place starts to develop and make money, you can be sure other developments would spring up, so CA is very hard.

Can't sell now cos it's still building. I'm referring to giving it up completely. We're talking about a loss of about S$50k now.

It's to cut loss or bleed some more in the years to come.

My calculations showed that if I hold on further, within next 4+ years, the bank loan itself will hit another S$50k. The bank interest kills! It's really a lot. To give up by then means losing even more. It doesn't make sense to keep a condo vacant while losing money every month.

I have the ability to hold if there is capital appreciation. But problem with Iskandar is that it is very unlikely to happen due to the vast land and huge oversupply of properties. Didn't consider this before I bought....

Those condos that have already been completed in Puteri Harbour and Medini are not doing well. New sales are practically zero and hardly anyone rents there, from what I was told. With a lot more condos coming up in next few years but demand not catching up, I do foresee the situation getting worse.

 

[xebay11]

Can't sell now cos it's still building. I'm referring to giving it up completely. We're talking about a loss of about S$50k now.

It's to cut loss or bleed some more in the years to come.

My calculations showed that if I hold on further, within next 4+ years, the bank loan itself will hit another S$50k. The bank interest kills! It's really a lot. To give up by then means losing even more. It doesn't make sense to keep a condo vacant while losing money every month.

I have the ability to hold if there is capital appreciation. But problem with Iskandar is that it is very unlikely to happen due to the vast land and huge oversupply of properties. Didn't consider this before I bought....

Those condos that have already been completed in Puteri Harbour and Medini are not doing well. New sales are practically zero and hardly anyone rents there, from what I was told. With a lot more condos coming up in next few years but demand not catching up, I do foresee the situation getting worse.

Bro, much as I would like to tell you what to do, I am in no position to tell you to take a $50k hit. I am not sure about selling before completion but I believe you can.

You have actually made a good analysis and I concur. So unless anyone else can give better advice, kindly post here, so that it is debate able and transparent for sgcount to make his decision. Now is the best time to argue and fight so that both sides of the coin can be presented.

 

[Frodo]

Actually, I did discuss this issue with several people. The conclusion we get is that in a well-established city or country, it makes sense to have holding power when investing in properties. Sometimes, market may be weak. But the confidence is there for it to spring back up again in future.

But my Malaysian colleagues warned me that for JB and Iskandar, it's a totally different ball game altogether. Even after 10 long years, the properties may remain stagnant in price.

So they reasoned to me that in the event that my condo has no tenant for many years, or that I have to fork out a few hundred $ every month to top up for the loan installment, at the end of 10 years, I could be losing money even if the property is sold at cost. I also risk the weak currency exposure. Worst case scenario is there may not be any buyer at all because by then, there could be many properties still on sale, given the vast land available in Iskandar.

So general sentiment I get now is, buy for own stay or just keep it but must be able to take the risks that come with it. Basically it's money spent without expecting any return for some time. It's highly not advisable if buying solely for investment.

But not many can just buy and keep a property I think. Except for some bros here who are already retired with good wealth or already dabbled and made their millions in other investments. Cos to lose a few hundred thousand dollars is not a small matter to the commoner.

Whether properties remain stagnant in prices also depend on location and the project you bought into. I met a friend's brother who bought a landed in Horizon Hills in 2006 (his friends mocked him as crazy then) and stayed there but in 2012 he sold for RM one million to another Singapore buyer. OK, difference is that he bought for stay and when an offer came along he couldn't refuse, he took it and bought another house in Iskandar where he lives now. Anyway, my point is that there can be CA to be enjoyed and reaped, but in some areas. It's not absolutely a sure lose proposition. Anyway, I doubt there is any prophet here who can tell with precision how things will work out over the next 3-10 years. Who knows maybe by completion time you may be willing to consider moving over to stay in your condo while renting out your Singapore home? It seems you have a decision to make, and certainly not an easy one. If you wish to bail out of your property, what would be the financial impact in terms of penalties and loan repayment to the bank, if any? I believe you would have already done your research for an exit solution, right?

 

[Frodo]

Bro, much as I would like to tell you what to do, I am in no position to tell you to take a $50k hit. I am not sure about selling before completion but I believe you can.

You have actually made a good analysis and I concur. So unless anyone else can give better advice, kindly post here, so that it is debate able and transparent for sgcount to make his decision. Now is the best time to argue and fight so that both sides of the coin can be presented.

Huh? Just a few posts earlier you said your only advice was for him to sell....which means to take a $50K hit?

And why argue and fight? No need to take such an aggressive stance lah.

If I were in sgcount's position, I would hold on to the property so long as I can finance it. My thinking may be naïve but it is still my own property after all. If I bail out I surely lose in terms of penalties and other financial losses. But if I can hold, I can still enjoy and make use of it. I will take it as paying off an asset that will be mine for many years to come. Consider that in Singapore people can buy cars that cost $120 to $150K and it is almost certainly lose money all the way and you can't live in it and can only drive it, but for condo you can live in it and make use of facilities. And besides, since investing has its risks, I should have prepared myself that I may not be able to rent out or have to rent low eventually.

 

[Frodo]

Some have said the SG government have exaggerated by painting a bleak picture of Iskandar's doom and gloom. But I would also question if they are painting the Singapore's situation as worse than it really is?

I've heard about hospital bed shortage. And I think we all know the high cost of living in SG.

But this is not something that has happened overnight, and based on the general sentiments I've gathered so far from the many people around me, they still continue to believe in the "Singapore Story". My colleagues and relatives are very confident and assured of the healthcare system here. Education may be stressful but everyone continues to send their kids to local schools here.

Foreigners I meet at my workplace never fail to tell me how lucky I am to be a Singaporean. One Indian national has just become PR, another one has her family here and dreams of becoming a citizen soon. While for PRC, I have quite a number of them at my workplace and as my neighbours. They are all converted to Singaporeans, happily settled down in their HDB flats, their kids speak like Singaporeans, and they go to local schools.

Despite the high costs of living and small apartment spaces, out of curiosity, I asked some of my friends and foreigner colleagues if they would like to settle down in Iskandar. All immediately gave me a big NO.

I have 5 colleagues who have done LASIK eye surgery. 1 went to JB the other 4 went to clinics in Singapore. When I ask the 4 why didn't they consider going to JB as it's so much cheaper, like 1/2 price, all gave me the ridiculously scared look! Huh? JB?!! No way.

I think confidence in a well-established system and strong government is very important for them.

In that sense, I don't think Singaporeans are ready any time soon in the next few decades to move over to Iskandar to live.

I don't understand the part where some here say Singapore will slowly degenerate as hospital bills become expensive, flats are getting smaller and unaffordable or that the attraction to live here is dropping.

I have a few friends who have all made money from even public housing, aka HDB flats. Those who bought their flats back in the early 2000 for say S$250,000, their flats were sold for S$600,000. Profit: S$350,000. Those who bought 5-6 year ago at S$500,000, some buyers are already asking for high S$600,000 even in this slow economy. Profit: close to S$200,000.

No offence to those who have bought Puteri Harbour. Based on the current situation, I highly doubt even those freehold, highly priced condos there can command such a huge capital appreciation within just a few years.

So I'm not sure if it's all doom and gloom in SG also. (Note: I'm not a government supporter! Just thinking aloud about the situation in SG. It doesn't seem as bad as some make it out to be.)

Maybe it really boils down to personal preference on the kind of life one would like to have. But as I've said, I am slowly appreciating the general agreement here that investing in Iskandar properties is a high risk one has to have the financial means to absorb.

I don't believe it's all doom in Singapore, but I do believe that is a lot of gloom in Singapore. People are gloomy about many things, and complaining about many things. Ironically education is one of them, so is housing affordability, and not forgetting transportation woes. And there is also rising costs of living. Like I shared before, I find it hard to eat meals in Singapore anymore when I convert to think I am paying RM10 for a plate of chicken rice in Singapore. Last time when I pack economic rice for entire family I can have to spend at least $20. But now in JB it is at most RM35. Or when I buy half chicken in Singapore it is $15 but cost RM18 in JB. And this is just savings from food. Haven't talk about other things like car and petrol etc.

 

[xebay11]

Huh? Just a few posts earlier you said your only advice was for him to sell....which means to take a $50K hit?

And why argue and fight? No need to take such an aggressive stance lah.

If I were in sgcount's position, I would hold on to the property so long as I can finance it. My thinking may be naïve but it is still my own property after all. If I bail out I surely lose in terms of penalties and other financial losses. But if I can hold, I can still enjoy and make use of it. I will take it as paying off an asset that will be mine for many years to come. Consider that in Singapore people can buy cars that cost $120 to $150K and it is almost certainly lose money all the way and you can't live in it and can only drive it, but for condo you can live in it and make use of facilities. And besides, since investing has its risks, I should have prepared myself that I may not be able to rent out or have to rent low eventually.

Sell while still building and without taking a $50k hit if possible, if his only option is to sell with a $50k hit, then I cannot say sell, only sgcount can make the call. Also I have mentioned before, holding on, for some people also not an option, as they may feel slave to an unending loan and interest costs are very high for Malaysian loans especially if highly geared. I did some loan calculations and up to half of monthly instalment can be just paying interest.

I was really slammed in PH thread for highlighting the hard truths as people there think that kampung spirit means spreading the love and goodwill with no regards for reality.

 

[Frodo]

This is a good observation on the 2 groups. But I think there is a middle group which I belong to. Those that can afford to pay the monthly instalment and hold on to the property for as long as possible but yet not rich to the point of writing off the Iskandar property as a bad investment (which the 1st group can due to their higher financial wealth).

I'm in the position now of question if it makes sense any more to hold on to the property and pay my monthly bank loan+condo maintenance fees of S$1300 when I'm not staying there and in the worst case scenario, when there is no tenant at all for the next many years to come.

If I can summarise, based on what I've learnt so far, buying Iskandar properties (especially condos) is safe only if buyers wants to live in them or they have enough money to not feel the pinch in case they lose a few hundred thousand dollars. For investment, it is usually a No-no or unless one is willing to take on very high risks.

I have a friend who tells me that rental is all about price, and I quite agree with him. If you offer a low rental, there is a good chance that someone would take it. I know of one family who wants to rent out HDB and move over to JB but feel jittery about buying a property. If you offer him your place for $600 a month I think he will take it. You get to cover almost half your instalment and his HDB rental of say $2000 still give him extra $1400 or RM4200 to spend in JB.

 

[Frodo]

Sell while still building and without taking a $50k hit if possible, if his only option is to sell with a $50k hit, then I cannot say sell, only sgcount can make the call. Also I have mentioned before, holding on, for some people also not an option, as they may feel slave to an unending loan and interest costs are very high for Malaysian loans especially if highly geared. I did some loan calculations and up to half of monthly instalment can be just paying interest.

I was really slammed in PH thread for highlighting the hard truths as people there think that kampung spirit means spreading the love and goodwill with no regards for reality.

Unless one is cash rich (with $2.6m in bank ) to pay for house in full, one should be fully aware of the bank loans and interest charged. These things are transparent to the buyer. And that's the way things are in JB. Loans are BLR-2.X% for everyone whether local or foreigner, if I am not wrong. And interest is always higher initially and lower eventually. Same even with HDB concessionary loan. I see my HDB monthly principal payment and interest payment I also jaw drop.:o

 

[Frodo]

This was exactly how I think now. But I was too rash before buying and didn't consider this. I thought with all the plans coming up in Medini, how can it fail in terms of having demand for rental and selling it away in future? What I failed to realize among many factors are: Medini has too much land, it will take a long time for everything to complete building, and worst of all, the supply of condos is far too high compared to the demand.

Yes, maybe 2035 and beyond... we might see Medini only moving. But I think that's too long a time line for any investment to make sense. Beyond 4 years, it's hard to predict what will happen. At 10 years, it's likely purely speculation. Anything beyond that is just taking a very huge risk as anything can happen. There could be no overall gain and it's still a question if the property can be disposed of if needed.

I was at Fairways Suite at HH and my friend showed me the view from a high floor. Wow, there really is a lot of empty land in Nusajaya! So probably true that it will take quite a while for the people population to fill up. Maybe in the near future the JB govt might do something clever and smart and move things along faster? Never say never, right?:p

 

[Frodo]

Just treat the installment as buying a car.

Agreed. This is a good mindset to have. Just compare it with buying a Singapore car.