PAP Politicians are Different

[Thick Face Black Heart]

You're contradicting yourself. You said there is really no divide. And yet in the same breath you said there are 2 different classes of people. Isn't the fact that there are 2 classes means there is a divide. And you go on to say that in Asia, the rulers do not connect with peasants. Again, doesn't that implies there is a divide. And worse still, u go on to say that PAP politicians are average and so are the rest of the Singaporeans. If everyone in S'pore is average then who is above and below average? It's plain common sense that in any population, there must be those who are above average, average and below average, so how can what u purport make any sense?

The only point I agree with u is it's a mind game. Yes, it's your mind that's playing games with u else u won't be posting such nonsense here.

I agree Neddy's post is pretty confused. You may as well say there's no divide in the world's political system, the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is just the people's perception.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

They are just humans.

Very hard to step into someone else's shoes.

I remembered my very rich relative complains about her 2 maids wanting to take one day off every month. Different classes of people, different standards.

UK politicians envy Singapore politicians. They can only dream about the high pay and the easy job!

Freedalas and I do not get the point you're making. Yes everyone here knows its' hard to step into another person's shoes. Have you stepped into the shoes of a 70yo woman who needs to clean coffee tables or toilets, or a family who has to feed four mouths with no minimum wage? Well none of our ministers have.

So what is your point exactly?

 

[freedalas]

I agree Neddy's post is pretty confused. You may as well say there's no divide in the world's political system, the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is just the people's perception.

That's right. Excellent rebuttal. The fact is that divides exist in every country in this world (even for the animal kingdom actually). The question is to what degree and extent. In our case, the divide has been increased very sharply over the last 15 years or so when the PAP subscribed to GDP growth at all cost and the only measure of success. Many are left behind by this policy and yet no real help had been rendered to them. Amidst these developments, the PAP grew more arrogant by the day since GDP did in fact grew impressively and therefore they are doing everything right. The alienation from the ordinary folks become further and further as a result. What saddens me with the pro PAP samsters is that the PAP itself is already cognizant of this widening divide and are trying to address this and yet they are still in state of denial.

 

[Fook Seng]

Agree. They're now cognizant of the people's mounting anger against them not just for the incidents themselves but more so the response to them eg calling a flood a pond and saying MRT did not made the neededannouncements because of the different races' poor command of English. Vivian did the right thing to rubbish PUB's calling it "ponding" in reply to Yaw SH and so did Lui Tuck Yew in telling Irene Ng off when she said S'poreans ought to be like Londoners in reacting to trains being down. I believe that after the results of the GE and with so many mis-steps happening so soon one after another, members of the PAP are now awakened to the fact that what the grand Old Master had claimed about S'pore having transformed from a 3rd to 1st is based on his own delusion and except for a beautiful skyline at Marina Bay, many things are falling apart and in terms of income inequality we're actually back to the 3rd world.

It is just a wish fulfillment perception of things to believe that the ruling party has recognized they had made some fundamental errors in government. It could just simply be that if it is something indefensibly, why defend it? Both VB and LTY are politically shrewd to deflect the blame for all the wrongs to the departments or GLCs under their supervision. Being the new kids in these ministries, they can easily lift themselves above the problem areas. In the process, some senior civil servants might take the heat in line with the salary deduction of the political office bearers. LHL was very shrewd to have swap so many ministers around, particularly in the problematic ministries.

 

[freedalas]

It is just a wish fulfillment perception of things to believe that the ruling party has recognized they had made some fundamental errors in government. It could just simply be that if it is something indefensibly, why defend it? Both VB and LTY are politically shrewd to deflect the blame for all the wrongs to the departments or GLCs under their supervision. Being the new kids in these ministries, they can easily lift themselves above the problem areas. In the process, some senior civil servants might take the heat in line with the salary deduction of the political office bearers. LHL was very shrewd to have swap so many ministers around, particularly in the problematic ministries.

You got a good point there. I agree that is a possibility. I did think about it that way too but on balance, I thought they may be truly awakening to the fact they are now on very shaky ground in the light of so many negative incidents that more than dent their previous claims as an A-Team. But as I said earlier, what you post could well be the case.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

It is just a wish fulfillment perception of things to believe that the ruling party has recognized they had made some fundamental errors in government. It could just simply be that if it is something indefensibly, why defend it? Both VB and LTY are politically shrewd to deflect the blame for all the wrongs to the departments or GLCs under their supervision. Being the new kids in these ministries, they can easily lift themselves above the problem areas. In the process, some senior civil servants might take the heat in line with the salary deduction of the political office bearers. LHL was very shrewd to have swap so many ministers around, particularly in the problematic ministries.

I think the days are gone where the cabinet minister can just arrow all the responsibility to his perm sec or PPS and tell the world that the blame has been assigned, the people under his charge will rectify the situation. If the MSM still has full control of the public perception, its possible. Nowadays, not possible. That's why ministers nowadays appear to be more proactive in acknowledging faults and are also more aware of the need to manage perception by appearing to be concerned and involved when things go wrong.

But as to whether there will be greater accountability still remains to be seen. After all, we have not seen any substantial changes to the style of govt yet. All the major policies are still intact.

 

[neddy]

where did u get this information from? fact or fiction?

Fact. From a UK colleague who worked for UK politicians, it was after the scandal over misuse of funds a few years back. There was even an ex-UK politician (an Indian British woman lawyer) who went to Singapore to work for the PAP type. Sorry, cannot remember her name.

your above example has any relevance to the topic?

Yes. I agree that PAP politicians are different.
Look at the personal sacrifices of many countries' politicians. Do they complain like PAP Grace Fu?
In Australia, there was even a case of NSW politician that was gunned down by Vietnamese gang in Cabramatta.
http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/onceuponatimeincabramatta

I agree Neddy's post is pretty confused. You may as well say there's no divide in the world's political system, the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is just the people's perception.

Pai-seh. Excuse my post. I see things in relativity. My typing is slower than my thoughts.
I will try to explain.

Politicians are necessary evils. They get the jobs by winning votes. So, basically, they just want to win voters over to their side.

That is where the similarity between PAP and say ... Australian politicians ends.

PAP uses threats. Claims to be clean and incorrupt. They do everything above board. They destroy institutions necessary for Singapore politics to grow and mature. Voters' perceptions of PAP still very good.

Australian politicians try to con the voters too, but no threats. No suing of Oppositions. At least they protect the constitutions and important institutions that allow democracy and personal freedom to exist.

I thought PAP politicians should be doing better since the Straits Times is on their side. No! It is the independent social media like this one that makes PAP politicians behave! And PAP govt indirectly buy fuckwarezone and set up REACH to try to re-connect with the people.

Also,

My experience in anthropology tells me that CEOs, decision makers and leaders do badly when they are rewarded too much monetarily. Higher salary works better when we can measure people's work in output, eg Production workers.

To use KPIs on politicians and bankers are jokes.

Good people turn bad when they have permanence in power and status.

I works with people in positions of power and it never fails to amaze me how humans get used to having entitlements as their rights.

Freedalas and I do not get the point you're making. Yes everyone here knows its' hard to step into another person's shoes. Have you stepped into the shoes of a 70yo woman who needs to clean coffee tables or toilets, or a family who has to feed four mouths with no minimum wage? Well none of our ministers have.

So what is your point exactly?

Please see above.

I know Singapore ministers have not. They attached too much self importance to what they are doing.

There is no one to tell them to eat humble pie once in a while. In Denmark, politicians cycle around town to attend meetings.

The idea of a Minimum wage is to recognize and give people a dignified living standard for the work done. It is also important to use that as a benchmark when govt needs to set Pension rate, etc.

Anything below Minimum wage is exploitation. PAP enjoy Minimum wage based on x number of top income earners, and they have pension. Wow! But still cannot attract good people. I wonder why? Has nation building gone to waste?
Having a dictatorship for too long has damage politics as a respected occupation and calling. More Tin PL? More cronies?

Singapore politics - still a long way to maturity.

 

[Conqueror]

Especially To Raffles And Goh Keng Swee

Yes, i m quite sure the pap thinks that Singaporeans are ungrateful to them

I do have to remind you that the majority who voted for LKY and gang are all UNGRATEFUL because they have all forgotten what the other heroes like Raffles and Goh K.S. had done for them. Instead of thanking these people, the crooked minds have forgotten that it was Sir Stamford Raffles who designed the urban planning which is adopted by HDB today. And Goh Keng Swee did all the important works in all four major areas but he was forgotten completely even until his death. Nobody asked why the late Goh did not receive millions of dollars for his contributions. Isn't this a country that rewards its prized citizens for their merits, visible credits, worthy contribution and sacrifices ? But, why LHL ? Funny, isn't it ? What did he do to deserve that ? The funny thing is, no one (60%) wants to rebuke LKY for heaping up these credits to himself shamefully. Alas ! Meritocracy had been raped !

Some of the patriots and I have not forgotten these people and that's why we are even more staunch and steadfast to go against this fascist regime.

 

[neddy]

Re: Especially To Raffles And Goh Keng Swee

Voters amnesia is a powerful weapon at politicians disposal.
How many people remember LKY's policies mistakes?

When LKY dies, there will be a GRAND STATE FUNERAL for his contribution on how he turned Singapore to $Chingapore Casino$.

Meritocracy is never an aspiration. No rape. Ask MP Tin Pei Ling.

I cannot believe that LKY does not know what is going on.

I do have to remind you that the majority who voted for LKY and gang are all UNGRATEFUL because they have all forgotten what the other heroes like Raffles and Goh K.S. had done for them. Instead of thanking these people, the crooked minds have forgotten that it was Sir Stamford Raffles who designed the urban planning which is adopted by HDB today. And Goh Keng Swee did all the important works in all four major areas but he was forgotten completely even until his death. Nobody asked why the late Goh did not receive millions of dollars for his contributions. Isn't this a country that rewards its prized citizens for their merits, visible credits, worthy contribution and sacrifices ? But, why LHL ? Funny, isn't it ? What did he do to deserve that ? The funny thing is, no one (60%) wants to rebuke LKY for heaping up these credits to himself shamefully. Alas ! Meritocracy had been raped !

Some of the patriots and I have not forgotten these people and that's why we are even more staunch and steadfast to go against this fascist regime.

 

[Ash007]

You have only Singaporean to blame for being daft in not seeing that these tactics would affect them in the long run.

True..but the no challenge was pap's strongarm tactics used against legitimate opponents in the 1960s and thereafter...my point abt being subtly ruthless in Post #7. The pap's dirty tactics are very different from what other countries' polticians would do

 

[TracyTan866]

wat strange taste? ...

1. mee siam mai hum (ie normal for him to have mee siam with hum)
2. man prefers pink shirt
3. hubby prefers manly wife rather than feminine, demure
4. they prefer making money rather than making life better for their people
5. they rather satisfy businesses than satisfying their people
6. they prefer foreigners than their locals
7. NS for locals, jobs for foreigners
etc..

arent these strange for a man/politician?

 

[TracyTan866]

Hi Tracy

If you read Neddy's post again, I believe he was saying UK politicians envy their PAP counterparts because of the out-of-the-world salaries coupled with an easy job. He's absolutely right as far as this point is concerned. In fact, the whole world's politicians are envious of the PAP on this count.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[TracyTan866]

Agree. They're now cognizant of the people's mounting anger against them not just for the incidents themselves but more so the response to them eg calling a flood a pond and saying MRT did not made the neededannouncements because of the different races' poor command of English. Vivian did the right thing to rubbish PUB's calling it "ponding" in reply to Yaw SH and so did Lui Tuck Yew in telling Irene Ng off when she said S'poreans ought to be like Londoners in reacting to trains being down. I believe that after the results of the GE and with so many mis-steps happening so soon one after another, members of the PAP are now awakened to the fact that what the grand Old Master had claimed about S'pore having transformed from a 3rd to 1st is based on his own delusion and except for a beautiful skyline at Marina Bay, many things are falling apart and in terms of income inequality we're actually back to the 3rd world.

I agree with you.

many of the politicians, like Irene, are very myopic. The concern of Singaporeans is "are there underlying problems that caused the incidents". It is not a matter of an MRT train breaking down..."could that just be the iceberg of many bigger problems' Singaporeans are not complaining just because an MRT train stalled on 15 Dec...and I think the initial investigations showed that they are right to be concerned because the problem could be much deeper.

Likewise, the pap is very myopic. They think Singaporeans are frivolous abt their complaints. Singaporeans are voicing out because we love Singapore and can see the wrong direction the pap is heading. With so many things gg wrong and so much feedback, the pap need to take a relook on their assumptions, policies, modus operandi, etc if they truly want to lead SG in the right direction

 

[TracyTan866]

I agree Neddy's post is pretty confused. You may as well say there's no divide in the world's political system, the difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is just the people's perception.

well said...

 

[TracyTan866]

Freedalas and I do not get the point you're making. Yes everyone here knows its' hard to step into another person's shoes. Have you stepped into the shoes of a 70yo woman who needs to clean coffee tables or toilets, or a family who has to feed four mouths with no minimum wage? Well none of our ministers have.

So what is your point exactly?

hahaha..good point. this thread is talking abt pap politicians being different from other countries' politicians and not abt LHL comparing to a worker. I agree with you that Neddy misses the point

 

[TracyTan866]

That's right. Excellent rebuttal. The fact is that divides exist in every country in this world (even for the animal kingdom actually). The question is to what degree and extent. In our case, the divide has been increased very sharply over the last 15 years or so when the PAP subscribed to GDP growth at all cost and the only measure of success. Many are left behind by this policy and yet no real help had been rendered to them. Amidst these developments, the PAP grew more arrogant by the day since GDP did in fact grew impressively and therefore they are doing everything right. The alienation from the ordinary folks become further and further as a result. What saddens me with the pro PAP samsters is that the PAP itself is already cognizant of this widening divide and are trying to address this and yet they are still in state of denial.

Agree ...

 

[TracyTan866]

It is just a wish fulfillment perception of things to believe that the ruling party has recognized they had made some fundamental errors in government. It could just simply be that if it is something indefensibly, why defend it? Both VB and LTY are politically shrewd to deflect the blame for all the wrongs to the departments or GLCs under their supervision. Being the new kids in these ministries, they can easily lift themselves above the problem areas. In the process, some senior civil servants might take the heat in line with the salary deduction of the political office bearers. LHL was very shrewd to have swap so many ministers around, particularly in the problematic ministries.

Good point. What the pap has done are cosmetics changes...let's see whether there are any real change..but it is a good step in the right direction and I must give the pap credit for now. there must be substantial changes, not just form alone

 

[TracyTan866]

You got a good point there. I agree that is a possibility. I did think about it that way too but on balance, I thought they may be truly awakening to the fact they are now on very shaky ground in the light of so many negative incidents that more than dent their previous claims as an A-Team. But as I said earlier, what you post could well be the case.

Yes, let's continue to be optimistic and hope that there are real change within the pap..only time will tell

 

[TracyTan866]

I think the days are gone where the cabinet minister can just arrow all the responsibility to his perm sec or PPS and tell the world that the blame has been assigned, the people under his charge will rectify the situation. If the MSM still has full control of the public perception, its possible. Nowadays, not possible. That's why ministers nowadays appear to be more proactive in acknowledging faults and are also more aware of the need to manage perception by appearing to be concerned and involved when things go wrong.

But as to whether there will be greater accountability still remains to be seen. After all, we have not seen any substantial changes to the style of govt yet. All the major policies are still intact.

We are thankful for social media..power of the tyrant has been trimmed

 

[TracyTan866]

Yes. I agree that PAP politicians are different.
Look at the personal sacrifices of many countries' politicians. Do they complain like PAP Grace Fu?
In Australia, there was even a case of NSW politician that was gunned down by Vietnamese gang in Cabramatta.
http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/onceuponatimeincabramatta

/QUOTE]

Good point..Grace Fu is such a disgrace to true politicians. she has done a great disservice to politicians who are in to bring a better life to their people and not for self advancement.

let's see how Grace reacts to this fallout