Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumbos

[scroobal]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

The media are quoting aviation sources including Qantas, RR etc. The media is clearly stating that the existing engine will be taken out and a new engine put in while repairs are done to the old. Once the old engine is fixed the old engine will be placed back . The issue is 50% of all engines has to be fixed.

Are you suggesting that comments such as the number of engines being replaced are wrong and those comments are false and dishonest.
Assuming those numbers are correct, surely 50% of engine replacement suggest a serious matter. We are not talking about a BMW and its modular approach to engineering. We are talking about an airliner with many people on board.

This to me is a rare but serious incident that could have led to demise of many lives. It was luck that the fuel tank and lines were not ruptured.

Such reports from the media are at best half-truths or left a lot of details, which does not really help but tend to do more damage. .

 

[scroobal]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

As I asked the other chap - why did SIA say that they were ok but to come back a few days later and say that 3 of the engines are now affected. What check did they do to give the green light in the first instance.

As I indicated before, its not a technical issue. The idiot who crashed the Air India jet while attempting to land is a case in point. Engineering and the technicals have no part in the discussion.

It also does not matter if RR has taken over the entire maintenance package. I don't recall Passengers paying RR a portion of their ticket value to RR.

This is poor judgement. The only credit I give SIA is that they did not point the finger at RR and say that they are responsible for the maintenance. At least they know that argument would make them look silly.

Dear Scroo

I hope this post will help settle some of the technical and operational issues that you have touched upon. Please understand that as far as possible I will try to differentiate between what is known to me personally about the technical issues at hand and secondly what is informed speculation. Lastly I claim no special insider knowledge just a position as an aviation nut case who has known people on the inside.

1. Checks on Air Frames and Engines are as far as I know divided into A' B C checks and D Checks. These are industry standard protocols an apply across air frames and engines. They are in essence differentiated by the amount of time needed to complete each check and the amount of work needed to replace parts.

2. Checks on engines apart from A Checks have to be done in a hanger. Engine Maintanence and inspection is both rigourous and methodical to ensure that no mistakes are made when it comes to safety. Lax and or poor maintanence or non standard by the book maintanence have been the cause of accidents in the past. I refer you to air crash investigation on you tube.


3. Quantas in the words of a senior executive has been extremely conservative when it came to the issue of the A 380 and the oil leaks.

4. The investigation of Rolls Royce has been quite quick in ascertaining and reporting that it was the oil leaks which were at fault for the Quantas Incident. PLease understand that an engine is an immensely complicated piece of precision technology, In so much as we now understand that oil leaks is a cause, that was not apparent when Quantas first reported the oil leaks. For example did the turbine crack hence causing the oil leak hence the fire and hence the explosion and hence the blow out, or did the oil leak cause the fire and hence the turbine crack failure and hence the blow out. If the oil leak happened where was the problem ? Oil gear box, oil pump etc etc etc. A thorough investigation by rolls royce would examine all possibilities based on the damaged engine and even that takes time.

5. Oil stains even as found by Quantas or oil stains by itself might not be indicative of a cause. Engines in service suffer performance and fuel burn degredation from their brand new specs. Oil stains in itself depending on specified area might not be indicative of cause and just excessive wear and tear which on a brand new engine is not a cause for alarm but just a cause for investigation,

6. The reason why Quantas was able to detect it faster was that they had I beiieved stopped the planes from flying and brought it into a hanger for a comprehensive strip down when the incident first happened or " extreme conservativesm. " SQ and Lufthansa had done a line check without taking it out of service. When Rolls Royce knew more and started suggesting to look for specific issues, a more comprehensive check ensured.


7. In all cases Rolls Royce has taken over the maintanence of the engine on behalf of the operators under the total care package.


Locke

 

[neddy]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

I do kudos the pilots who have to deal with the amount of cockpit warnings.
We have came a long way from the Air Peru 757 air crash lessons.

I wonder if Qantas having the most powerful engines among the Trent 900 series contribute to this incident.

One thing that I will never invest in Qantas shares, the capital outlay is such that it is impossible to make profits.

'Unprecedented' number of failures on ill-fated Qantas A380 flight
By Kate Schneider From: news.com.au November 19, 2010 11:39AM ]
Documents reveal multiple Qantas
failures'.
Sky News19 November 2010

The pilots were forced to deal with an "unprecedented" number of issues during the two-hour ordeal, Vice President of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Richard Woodward, said.

“The amount of failures is unprecedented,'' Mr Woodward, a Qantas A380 pilot who has spoken to all five pilots told the Associated Press.

“There is probably a one in 100 million chance to have all that go wrong.''

The Federal Secretary of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association, Steve Purvanis, has emphasised just how lucky the passengers were to survive the incident.

"Definitely with fuel gushing out of the fuel tank there and some very hot components, certainly one that was hot enough to explode an engine, they were very lucky that fuel inside the wing didn't ignite," he told ABC News.

"The passengers and crew on board were probably unaware of how serious the situation was.

"I would say from the pictures that I've seen that they're very lucky to be alive today."

The pilots were hit with one problem after another during the ordeal. With the engine on fire, the pilots struggled to deploy the fire suppression system.

The wing’s two fuel tanks were punctured and fuel was leaking out, creating a growing imbalance between the left and right sides of the plane.

However the pilots were prevented from pumping fuel forward from tanks in the tail due to electrical problems, which saw the plane become tail heavy.

Safety investigators say that this may have been the greatest risk - if the plane had become too unbalanced it could have stalled and crashed.

The pilots were also bombarded with a massive number of computer messages alerting them to the current and future system failures.

One message warned that the main power system was about to be lost, leaving them with only enough power for vital systems - “the last thing you need in that kind of situation”.

“I don't think any crew in the world would have been trained to deal with the amount of different issues this crew faced,'' Mr Woodward said.

Luckily, there were five experienced pilots onboard the plane with a total of 100 years of flying experience between them.

Among them was Captain Richard De Crespigny, who flew the plane while the other pilots dealt with the computer alarms and made announcements to the passengers.

However even when the runway was in sight the problems were not over, with the wing flaps and landing gear doors inoperable. The pilots were forced to use gravity to lower the gear.

The aircraft suffered several flat tyres during the landing as brake temperatures reached over 900 degrees Celsius.

It is likely that for some of the problems there were no procedures because no airline anticipates so many things going wrong at once, John Goglia, a former National Transportation Safety Board member said.

The airline has kept its entire A380 fleet grounded since the incident.

It was announced yesterday that over 40 Rolls-Royce engines on A380 fleets worldwide will need to be replaced following the incidents, with up to 14 Qantas engines needing to be inspected and potentially replaced.

On November 15, a Qantas Boeing 747 bound for Buenos Aires was forced to return to Sydney after it suffered an electrical fault which caused smoke to pour into the cockpit.

 

[lockeliberal]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

Dear Scroo

The answers were in the technical details, they did an immediate check and found nothing wrong. They did another more detailed check later after Rolls Royce had ascertained and confirmed the details , and as a result found more.



Locke

 

[Windsor]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

The media are quoting aviation sources including Qantas, RR etc. The media is clearly stating that the existing engine will be taken out and a new engine put in while repairs are done to the old. Once the old engine is fixed the old engine will be placed back . The issue is 50% of all engines has to be fixed.

Are you suggesting that comments such as the number of engines being replaced are wrong and those comments are false and dishonest.
Assuming those numbers are correct, surely 50% of engine replacement suggest a serious matter. We are not talking about a BMW and its modular approach to engineering. We are talking about an airliner with many people on board.

This to me is a rare but serious incident that could have led to demise of many lives. It was luck that the fuel tank and lines were not ruptured.

I think you are misreading what I wrote down. Nowadays, many have the perception that media sources cannot be simply trusted to provide the truth. A good example of course is our very own home-grown MSM. If you read my response to another's post and I quote "Qantas chief Alan Joyce said that Rolls-Royce had indicated that up to 40 of them may need to be replaced."

Replace as in taking out old ones and scrapping them and put newly manufactured as replacement or as I elaborated, taking the operational engines and replaced them with rectified spare engines. A layman cannot is unable to tell and will understand it as newly manufactured engines replacing the old ones.

Your post has another media report which tells an entirely different story to the one I am responding to. Am I saying this is not a serious matter? I think my post says it all.

 

[Windsor]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

An important question also arise as to why this is happening and I bet Qantas is ready to place the blame on the engines per se. Perhaps Qantas might need to look into their own maintenance in case there might be a problem there too. The recent incidents does not apply only to the RR engines, but to different aircraft and engines.

I do kudos the pilots who have to deal with the amount of cockpit warnings.
We have came a long way from the Air Peru 757 air crash lessons.

I wonder if Qantas having the most powerful engines among the Trent 900 series contribute to this incident.

One thing that I will never invest in Qantas shares, the capital outlay is such that it is impossible to make profits.

'Unprecedented' number of failures on ill-fated Qantas A380 flight
By Kate Schneider From: news.com.au November 19, 2010 11:39AM ]
Documents reveal multiple Qantas
failures'.
Sky News19 November 2010

The pilots were forced to deal with an "unprecedented" number of issues during the two-hour ordeal, Vice President of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Richard Woodward, said.

“The amount of failures is unprecedented,'' Mr Woodward, a Qantas A380 pilot who has spoken to all five pilots told the Associated Press.

“There is probably a one in 100 million chance to have all that go wrong.''

The Federal Secretary of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association, Steve Purvanis, has emphasised just how lucky the passengers were to survive the incident.

"Definitely with fuel gushing out of the fuel tank there and some very hot components, certainly one that was hot enough to explode an engine, they were very lucky that fuel inside the wing didn't ignite," he told ABC News.

"The passengers and crew on board were probably unaware of how serious the situation was.

"I would say from the pictures that I've seen that they're very lucky to be alive today."

The pilots were hit with one problem after another during the ordeal. With the engine on fire, the pilots struggled to deploy the fire suppression system.

The wing’s two fuel tanks were punctured and fuel was leaking out, creating a growing imbalance between the left and right sides of the plane.

However the pilots were prevented from pumping fuel forward from tanks in the tail due to electrical problems, which saw the plane become tail heavy.

Safety investigators say that this may have been the greatest risk - if the plane had become too unbalanced it could have stalled and crashed.

The pilots were also bombarded with a massive number of computer messages alerting them to the current and future system failures.

One message warned that the main power system was about to be lost, leaving them with only enough power for vital systems - “the last thing you need in that kind of situation”.

“I don't think any crew in the world would have been trained to deal with the amount of different issues this crew faced,'' Mr Woodward said.

Luckily, there were five experienced pilots onboard the plane with a total of 100 years of flying experience between them.

Among them was Captain Richard De Crespigny, who flew the plane while the other pilots dealt with the computer alarms and made announcements to the passengers.

However even when the runway was in sight the problems were not over, with the wing flaps and landing gear doors inoperable. The pilots were forced to use gravity to lower the gear.

The aircraft suffered several flat tyres during the landing as brake temperatures reached over 900 degrees Celsius.

It is likely that for some of the problems there were no procedures because no airline anticipates so many things going wrong at once, John Goglia, a former National Transportation Safety Board member said.

The airline has kept its entire A380 fleet grounded since the incident.

It was announced yesterday that over 40 Rolls-Royce engines on A380 fleets worldwide will need to be replaced following the incidents, with up to 14 Qantas engines needing to be inspected and potentially replaced.

On November 15, a Qantas Boeing 747 bound for Buenos Aires was forced to return to Sydney after it suffered an electrical fault which caused smoke to pour into the cockpit.

 

[lockeliberal]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

Dear Windsor and Scroo

Anyone would know due to the complex nature of the machine or engine, that a brand new manufactured engine does not happen over night or in months, replacement in this case would be same engine but a part exchange done over night. No on who knows aviation will understand it as changing fourty engines.




Locke

 

[zuoom]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

the devil is in the details.

 

[heartlander]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

Dear Windsor and Scroo

Anyone would know due to the complex nature of the machine or engine, that a brand new manufactured engine does not happen over night or in months, replacement in this case would be same engine but a part exchange done over night. No on who knows aviation will understand it as changing fourty engines.




Locke

I disagree. Not everyone knows that A380 requires especially powerful engines. Not everyone knows that you couldn't just replace these engines with some earlier models. Not everyone knows that the same model is still being used. That is not how people's instincts work.

 

[Windsor]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

Locke, you and I and perhaps some in this forum, but the aviation industry is quite inclusive. As one poster did comment about aging aircraft and that SIA sells of problematic aircraft every 2-3 years, shows lack of knowledge and just his perception. In my other posts I did point out that the 40 engines are not new but basically the same engines after having been through the mandatory service directive.

Dear Windsor and Scroo

Anyone would know due to the complex nature of the machine or engine, that a brand new manufactured engine does not happen over night or in months, replacement in this case would be same engine but a part exchange done over night. No on who knows aviation will understand it as changing fourty engines.




Locke

 

[Windsor]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

At least you and perhaps a few others may agree that there is more in this than what can be gleaned from the news we read. Compared to SIA's 100+ RR engines, Qantas has relatively much fewer RR engines in their fleet.

the devil is in the details.

 

[aurvandil]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

The following article on leaked documents show just how bad and dangerous the situation is. Given that the plane landed in Singapore, it is impossible that SIA did not know of the gravity of the situation.

Leaked report shows Qantas engine explosion dangers

http://www.3news.co.nz/Leaked-repor...ngers/tabid/417/articleID/187075/Default.aspx

A leaked report has revealed the extent of the danger on board a Qantas A380 when an engine exploded two weeks ago.

The pilots were faced with a series of system failures, and now 40 Rolls-Royce engines are to be replaced.

The leaked report is another huge blow for Qantas. It shows how close QF32 came to disaster. Experts say the damage was so great it could have caused an older aircraft to crash, and that passengers are lucky to be alive.

New pictures show the Qantas A380 suffered serious damage that went far beyond the engine.

Holes were ripped in the wings by flying debris.

“What this damage did, that matters really, is it damaged the hydraulics systems of the aeroplane and it cut some electrical wires. Now the result of these two things was some of the aeroplanes controls didn't work,” says aviation commentator David Learmount.

3 News has been leaked a separate document and a series of photographs of the extensive damage.

The explosion happened just 15 minutes into a flight from Singapore, bound for Sydney.

It caused a cascade of failures and the aircraft did many unexpected things.

It's believed leaking oil in the engine caught fire and heated metal parts disintegrated, damaging fuel pipes and control systems like the flaps, which made it difficult to land the plane.

Information leaked to 3 News indicates just how close the flight came to ending in tragedy.

An industry source told us:

“At the end of the landing roll there was a big sigh of relief, until they were told that fuel was gushing out of the wing and heading towards the brakes which were indicating 900degC. Then it was adrenaline back on again.”

Our source told us it took two fire trucks flooding an out of control engine with foam to shut it down.

Since the incident two weeks ago, Qantas' fleet of six A380s is still grounded, at an estimated cost of $1 million a day. None of this is doing Rolls Royce's reputation any good, and Airbus have announced it is seeking compensation from Rolls Royce for any disruption following the Qantas incident.

3 News

 

[lockeliberal]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

Dear Arun

The situation was serious , however whether the situation was serious enough to warrant a grounding of the fleet by regulatory authorities is something for the Europeans, and Australians to decide and yes Singapore. SQ just follows the directives of the manufacturers and the regulators.,



Locke

 

[scroobal]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

Wow, finally it is serious. When did you come to this conclusion.

I though Engines are complex matters and not easily understood by layman. And that there are strict protocols and it is the industry practice that again the layman does not understand. Furthermore the media has a habit of sensationalising things. For the layman, Qantas has come out of this looking professional in terms of leadership and judgement. Imagine, Qantas finds the oil in 3 engines next day, and now preliminary assessment is that the leaking oil ignited within the engine. I asked this question at the very start as people were claiming all kinds of things from industry protocol to engineering prowess.

"Why did SIA not find the oil on the first pass while Qantas did"

I was told that SIA Engineering crew were the first amongst all others Engineering staff to see the damage on Qantas. Maybe it is industry practice and engineering not to find anything on the first pass and that Qantas engineering was being anal about the whole thing.

I am not talking about the grounding the planes and I repeatedly have made this point.

Dear Arun

The situation was serious , however whether the situation was serious enough to warrant a grounding of the fleet by regulatory authorities is something for the Europeans, and Australians to decide and yes Singapore. SQ just follows the directives of the manufacturers and the regulators.,



Locke

 

[Windsor]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

I hope there will not have to be a need to repeat what was written but you ahve make a slant towards what was actually stated. No one said anything about the press Sensationaling things. The original statement was that the media has been well known to report half-truths or publish reports that does not provide enough details. You seem to have a tendency to change or distort what has been written and this appears to be deliberate. I simply cannot understand the reason, but I suspect perhaps this is just you and a case of upmanship. Your penchant to "colour" other posters comments leaves very much to be desired.

I had also said there are many plausible reasons for SIA to report the "stains" after Qantas discovered oil leaks. I remind you that all aircraft engines on-wing do have stains, and that in itself does not mean much. Oil leaks is a separate issue and can mean there is a rupture. There is no such thing as a very clean engine all spick and span after many flight hours. As a precaution as there had been a very serious incident, SIA decided it was prudent to replace these "stained" engines.

As to why the delay in findings, as stated there could be a few reasons. Can I offer one, such as "RR advised SIA engineers to look at another area of their engines whilst RR and Qantas look for clues on the Qantas engines?" Or perhaps "Flight Operations told Engineering, "all our A380 flights are not available to be grounded as our flight schedules are pretty tight, but we have an aircraft due in 3 days that we can schedule for maintenance to check the engines." Personally this question should be directed at SIA rather than in this forum.

Lastly there has never been a case when airline operators will immediately ground all their similar type aircraft because a major disaster happen on another operator's aircraft.

Wow, finally it is serious. When did you come to this conclusion.

I though Engines are complex matters and not easily understood by layman. And that there are strict protocols and it is the industry practice that again the layman does not understand. Furthermore the media has a habit of sensationalising things. For the layman, Qantas has come out of this looking professional in terms of leadership and judgement. Imagine, Qantas finds the oil in 3 engines next day, and now preliminary assessment is that the leaking oil ignited within the engine. I asked this question at the very start as people were claiming all kinds of things from industry protocol to engineering prowess.

"Why did SIA not find the oil on the first pass while Qantas did"

I was told that SIA Engineering crew were the first amongst all others Engineering staff to see the damage on Qantas. Maybe it is industry practice and engineering not to find anything on the first pass and that Qantas engineering was being anal about the whole thing.

I am not talking about the grounding the planes and I repeatedly have made this point.

 

[aurvandil]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

Locke

Maybe you can share what more needs to happen before it becomes "serious enough".

 

[bodycells]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

i suggest they remove the whole lot of planes off. They are an eye sore.

 

[lockeliberal]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

Dear Scroobal

Yes it might be as you put it a matter of public perception versus the technical details. Why Quantas found it first might be due to the fact that Quantas was willing to go beyond the regulators and Rolls Royce advice , take the engines, planes out of service and do a complete check which involves a strip down of the engine in a hanger whereas SQ just did a quick check on the flight line.

As the causes and details became clearer and as Rolls Royce advice became more definite , SQ followed with more detailed overnite checks taking the aircraft out of service.

Seeing the damage and understanding what caused the damage are two seperate issues. The ones who will understand what caused the damage and can trace the sequence of events are Rolls Royce and the Authorities. SQ Engineering are in no position to investigate and conclude what caused the incident.

Some detailed checks cannot be done on the flight line and any strip down involves taking the plane out of service and into a hanger.



Locke

 

[lockeliberal]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

Dear Arun

Thats for the engine makers and the authorities to decide, the ones with the greatest say and expertise are NTSB in the US and their European equivalent.

Similar accidents have happened with other engines which have not resulted in fleet wide groundings whilst the cause was investigated



Locke

 

[scroobal]

Re: Now Singapore Airlines is forced to change Rolls-Royce engines on three superjumb

Now I am slanting. It was you who suggested that the media was not true to what happened. I have yet to find one and you have yet to show. Please don't write lengthy prose to evade the issue. Show us which media slanted the incident. You could not explain the oil and now you are struggling with the media.

The central issue is why Qantas acted the way they did despite being a public listed company. How would you describe their attitude - wayward, rebellious, non-conformist,impatient etc?

I hope there will not have to be a need to repeat what was written but you ahve make a slant towards what was actually stated. No one said anything about the press Sensationaling things. The original statement was that the media has been well known to report half-truths or publish reports that does not provide enough details. You seem to have a tendency to change or distort what has been written and this appears to be deliberate. I simply cannot understand the reason, but I suspect perhaps this is just you and a case of upmanship. Your penchant to "colour" other posters comments leaves very much to be desired.


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