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Look at how social welfare bring UK down

Cruxx said:
Private allocation of welfare could only allocate welfare according to the whims and desires of private individuals whereas state-allocated welfare functions within the rigid strictures of conventional moral axioms. I prefer the former actually. If I prioritise the welfare of cats over that of humans, who are you do-gooders to tell me I'm wrong/immoral to do so? And more pertinently, what gives you the right to decide for me how money that I earned should be spent? I didn't accrue my wealth from thin air.

You are mixing up what society needs and what you want to do with your money. That is the root of the problem. The people with tons of money spend it as they like sometimes in ridiculous and wasteful ways in the eyes of most mortals. Yes they have the right to spend this money anyway they like as long as this money becomes theirs to keep. But this money comes from the people, no matter how much of hard work they put in. Otherwise nobody would be discussing Ministers' salaries nowadays. People therefore have right to take away this wasted money from them for the greater good.
 
It'll be interesting to know the extent to which food and grocery vouchers are distributed during MPs' meet the people sessions.
Even more interesting is how much detail do they go into before they distribute such freebies.

dun know about food vouchers, but pap do help people, i know a friend who lost his job and unable to pay HDB and get a little help from PAP. PAP do help the poor but not written in law like the angmoh.
 
This is exactly the argument the Govt is using for doing nothing, not to say for mankind, just for the more disadvantaged members of our society but the Govt will not bat an eye to raise the incomes of elites who do not really need this help and costs us to have one of the skewest Gini index in the world. It is all a matter of priority. People on the ground, even PAP MPs know that this problem exists and needs to be tackled but internal issues of organisation make their feedback falling on deaf ears. The money needed by these people is not something that will bankrupt the country or draw into our reserves. Nobody is talking about employment doles at this point in time so there is little leeway for abuse by undeserving recipients. You should have better trust in your Govt to manage the process. Although Bros here talked about healthcare but the key issue is not cost because subsidies are there to be tapped when required but rather the poor planning of resources.

gov is helping, not to the extent as brits, but anyone in singapore starving to death? If not, then gov is helping them through charity, religious organisation and government, singapore is one of the most taxed country in the world, we do not want no social welfare which increase the direct and indirect taxation.
 
Open Source is a contribution by the community of contributors and users. So there is not a big profit maker to rip everyone off by controlling the development of product at the source code level.

FOC welfare etc are dreams, that Santa will come and pay all the owing bills at X'mas - which ended up all the debts past down to next generations. It had been that way wrongfully for too long and can not proceed any further.

It would be good like Open Source, where you take something and use and contribute back to it by doing your own little part. It is not the concept of FREE-LOADING nor exploitation. I am not the Kiasu to line up for FOC Freebie like those you see in SG daily. For 1 pethetic cup of FOC drink you will see 100 Kiasu lined up for it. :*:


os x is only 30 us dollars, i think it is worth the price. i doubt apple rip off anyone. I tried to use those linux, but it is just not worth my trouble, i want to use the computer without all the hassle.
 
There's a way to circumvent the problem of welfare abuse: private charity. Invest your energy and money on charitable foundations close to your heart and whose work you could monitor personally rather than rely on a proxy such as the government. It wouldn't be "abuse" if it's a cause you contribute to out of your own volition.

Just because I denounce the welfare policies of the West doesn't mean I'm categorically opposed to the whole concept of welfarism and taking care of the weak and vulnerable. I'm of the belief that social and economic policies should be more scrupulous and aligned with the desires and demands of the individuals that constitute society rather than imposing broad-brush measures on everyone regardless of their needs and the circumstances they face.

"We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain." - Frédéric Bastiat

Yeah private charity is very common in singapore, rich singaporean like to donate to PRC who loses her daughter and thai who lose her legs. There are no figures, i am sure it is quite a large amount of money were donated by singaporean to charity. Who said singaporean and pap dogs are all bad.
 
You are mixing up what society needs and what you want to do with your money. That is the root of the problem. The people with tons of money spend it as they like sometimes in ridiculous and wasteful ways in the eyes of most mortals. Yes they have the right to spend this money anyway they like as long as this money becomes theirs to keep. But this money comes from the people, no matter how much of hard work they put in. Otherwise nobody would be discussing Ministers' salaries nowadays. People therefore have right to take away this wasted money from them for the greater good.

I read some of the things you post, you think singapore is rich, lots of sovereign reserve, therefore it is fair according to you, that gov should spread the money around and give to the poor.
Do you also think is unfair that some babies are born penniless, while other babies born to inherit millions, because their parent are rich? Maybe the society you want is that wealth to be taken from rich parent and spread around to poor too. Ridiculous right.
The world is unfair. Accept the fact.
 
I read some of the things you post, you think singapore is rich, lots of sovereign reserve, therefore it is fair according to you, that gov should spread the money around and give to the poor.
Do you also think is unfair that some babies are born penniless, while other babies born to inherit millions, because their parent are rich? Maybe the society you want is that wealth to be taken from rich parent and spread around to poor too. Ridiculous right.
The world is unfair. Accept the fact.

Fair or not fair is besides the pt. To me, the happiness of the individual i.e me is all that matters. If fairness benefits me, then sure, bring it on. I'm anti-communism but if you were to make me President of Cuba, I'll sing the praises of Cow Marks and worship at the feet of Fidel Castro all day :D
 
Hong Kong has Social Welfare too, but the local people are still very hardworking.

Singapore has no Social Welfare, but the locals seems to find some decent jobs repulsive. They would rather sit at home to wait for the right job to come along. :rolleyes:

I agree with you, neddy that apparently, locals seems to find some decent jobs repulsive. But it's not entirely true and not the real situation. It's an overused excuse by the govt to gloss over the real problems. I know many people, good hardworking responsible men and women, who are really trying very hard to get a job. But because of the screwed-up FT policies by the govt, they are passed over. Many atimes it is due to the low pay. You've to understand that compared to an FT who usually is single here, has his accomodation and even transportation for some provided for by the hiring contractor and so on, our locals have to deal with the high housing costs, transport costs and having to feed and school 2 to 3 children. It's not that they don't want the jobs, but it pays too miserably for them to be able to survive. To a FT, that kind of pay is ok especially when the foreign exchange works to their favor tremendously. And that's why they are people arguing for minimum wage for S'poreans. My main point in all my postings for this thread and also quite evidently of many forummers is that they are S'poreans who through no fault of their own but are caught up in the flawed govt policies that are badly in need of help from the govt. But the govt is not really doing to help them and instead using "the social welfare is evil" excuse ad infinitum.
 
http://app1.mcys.gov.sg/Assistance.aspx <- I suggest you check this. Welfare in SG does exist in 1 form or another and I know of many pple who have benefit from it. PAP just refuse to acknowledge it's existence and call it something else.


Of course such schemes exist. The PAP wouldn't be so stupid as not to draw up some schemes for wayang purposes. The real test is in its implementation. Do you how many conditions one has to comply before he gets a single cent from the govt? Do you how much information an applicant has to furnish just to have a chance to be considered for assistance, why, they even ask you how much your cousin earns? For every 500 applicants, probably only one gets through. The scheme only looks good on paper. That's why every year at budget time, the govt will announce how many millions is set aside to assist the poor. But that's only a provision. What really matters is the actual amount disbursed to those who need help. It's only a fraction. That's what some MPs meant in Parliament when they say many falls through the cracks ie many can't fulfill the very rigid and stringent criteria to qualify for assistance. That's the reality of the situation.
 
Fair or not fair is besides the pt. To me, the happiness of the individual i.e me is all that matters. If fairness benefits me, then sure, bring it on. I'm anti-communism but if you were to make me President of Cuba, I'll sing the praises of Cow Marks and worship at the feet of Fidel Castro all day :D

you dun have to scream I am a PAP dogs in this forum, with if you cannot beat them join them cuba example.
 
. To a FT, that kind of pay is ok especially when the foreign exchange works to their favor tremendously. And that's why they are people arguing for minimum wage for S'poreans. My main point in all my postings for this thread and also quite evidently of many forummers is that they are S'poreans who through no fault of their own but are caught up in the flawed govt policies that are badly in need of help from the govt. But the govt is not really doing to help them and instead using "the social welfare is evil" excuse ad infinitum.

minimum wage will not benefit singaporean, it will benefit FW and more will come to singapore.
 
Of course such schemes exist. The PAP wouldn't be so stupid as not to draw up some schemes for wayang purposes. The real test is in its implementation. Do you how many conditions one has to comply before he gets a single cent from the govt? Do you how much information an applicant has to furnish just to have a chance to be considered for assistance, why, they even ask you how much your cousin earns? For every 500 applicants, probably only one gets through. The scheme only looks good on paper. That's why every year at budget time, the govt will announce how many millions is set aside to assist the poor. But that's only a provision. What really matters is the actual amount disbursed to those who need help. It's only a fraction. That's what some MPs meant in Parliament when they say many falls through the cracks ie many can't fulfill the very rigid and stringent criteria to qualify for assistance. That's the reality of the situation.

That is a GOOD thing. It make sure only pple who needs help gets help. If UK had done that, they wouldn't be in as bad a shape as in that article
 
That is a GOOD thing. It make sure only pple who needs help gets help. If UK had done that, they wouldn't be in as bad a shape as in that article

If you have read my post carefully, the existing schemes or more accurately, the criteria to qualify for such schemes, cannot make sure that people who really need help do get any help. It is so simply because the scheme was designed to disqualify as many as possible, it was not designed to help all people who are genuinely in need, it was designed to help only the very few and to give the impression that the govt is helping.
 
minimum wage will not benefit singaporean, it will benefit FW and more will come to singapore.

Agree that minimum wage would not benefit the low income Singaporean.

However, less FWs not more, will come to Singapore as labour-reliant businesses will need to rationalize their own operations and make improvements to process and productivity.

I feel that those who argue for minimum wage do not understand Singapore's dual-track economy which results from welcoming migrant workers to our shores. Everything from cooked food, haircuts and town council facilities management could be affected. Cost of living, hence inflation, could increase substantially, because other 'market-based' business costs like rentals and the 'divine right of surplus' in town councils are sticky upwards.

The irony now is that this dual-track economic model is so successful, it was expanded to white collar workers and now affects the middle class as well. So there is a certain amount of hypocrisy from the middle class who now howl in pain from the policies that has benefited them substantially over the last 10 years. Of course, there are no intervention mechanisms like 'Workfare' for middle class non-unionized workers, is there? So the middle class gets screwed, and traditionally when they do, it would ignite a wave of liberal reforms, sometimes too much of it. Badly administered, hastily patched together stop-gap policies like unemployment insurance in the UK becomes more than a mere possibility.

By the time, telling angry, jobless people how welfare is bad, unemployment insurance should not be enacted would be more than useless.

Better to admit a little more than mere tweaking is needed than to extend and pretend that Workfare is enough, everything is good a la PAP and WP.
 
Here's an excellent satire on the illogic of welfarism :D

When the Labour Party established the National Food Service in 1948, life expectancy in this country was far lower and avoidable diseases such as rickets were commonplace. The NFS - with its founding principle that food should be free at the point of eating and available equally to all - transformed this nation's diet and wellbeing.
The Labour ethical principles underlying free universal food provision are as valid today as then. Society evolved because humans learned that cooperation, not competition, is essential to survival.
Now, cooperation implies the willing recognition in others of rights that one claims for oneself, which in turn means the sublimation of the selfish interests of the individual to those of the group.
Conservatives claim that there is an inevitable conflict between the two and that politics is the art of finding the right balance, which in their eyes is clearly on the side of selfish individualism.
But human experience shows that the interests of the individual can be fully expressed and achieved only through the group. We stand together, or fall alone. Equality of obligation and benefit is the underlying assumption behind the NFS. In other words, fair shares for all. If you want my political philosophy in a nutshell, then that's it.
Food is essential to life. Without it we die. It is therefore too important to be left to market forces, which inevitably means the well-fed profiting from the hungry. Access to this vital commodity must not depend upon the depth of someone's pocket or on the vagaries of the marketplace. Thus the state, and the state alone, can ensure a truly fair system of food provision.
But this does not mean there is no need for reform or that we can ignore the problems of the NFS. Those problems are deep-seated and structural, and our reforms must match them.
Bread shortages, meat queues, staff recruitment and retention are all issues that must urgently be addressed. Nor is it acceptable that people in inner cities and deprived regions should have to wait longer for their meals than the better-off.
Adjustments will have to be made and if calling on the private sector for transport and other ancillary functions means we get better and more food sooner, then we should not hesitate to do so. I make no apology for that.
Equally, I make no apology for accepting private donations offered to the Labour Party because I am confident that we, and we alone, will make that money work for a society in which fair feeding is the norm, not merely the aspiration.
But I have no hesitation in assuring you that, whatever means we use to achieve that goal, overall British food provision will remain in the hands of the British people themselves - which means the NFS.
Critics claim that the NFS is rationed in all but name, always has been, always will be. Well, I've got news for them: it is, and so it will remain. I know rationing gets a bad press, but anyone who thinks about it for a moment will realise it is the fairest distributive principle, one that lies at the heart of Labour values and policies.
The post-Second World War Labour government was loudly criticised for continuing wartime rationing - indeed, increasing it - into the peace, but time has shown how right those policies were. More of us eat more often and better now than we ever have. Sensible, fair, need-based rationing is a precondition of a publicly owned, free national food service.
Those who seek to wreck the NFS - the cake grabbers - do not appreciate that its million or so staff are not working for money or glory but because they believe passionately in free food for all. To blame them whenever things go wrong - as things occasionally must in any human organisation - is hurtful, unfair and demoralising.
The abuse heaped upon the regional food distribution centre following the Lowestoft salmonella tragedy was wrong and misguided. That tragedy was due to management systems inherited from the Tories, which have already been righted.
Similarly, the starvation scares in Cornwall and the so-called empty trolley deaths in Newcastle are regretted by no one more than myself - though I have to say that the Oxfam survey on which those figures are based has itself been called into question - but the answer is emphatically not to abandon the NFS in favour of competitive food provision.
Any pay-as-you-eat system means a two-tier food service to which access is rationed by wealth rather than by principle. Only the fat cats would benefit.
I know some people claim that by international standards the NFS is failing, that it has not been copied by any of the many countries in the world that studied it, that UK food expectancy is lower, vitamin deficiencies greater, delivery times longer, variety less, that foreigners get fresh fruit all the year round, and all the rest of it.
I know they say that if we had British equivalents of continental food suppliers such as La Tesco and von Sainsbury, we would eat better.
Well, maybe some would: inequality always favours the few at the expense of the many. But creating a free-for-all in food provision would never do here.
Imagine it: every high street, every marketplace, every supermarket would compete with every other to make money out of ordinary people's need to get the food that is their right.
The result would be hand-to-mouth provision, food anarchy, a scramble, with the best going to the strongest, not the hungriest. That is no basis for the fairer and more ethical society in which the majority of British people wish to live.
But it is also no excuse for standing still. We live longer and eat more; we have rising food expectations and therefore the NFS must improve to match them. More food means, to put it plainly, more money.
If we want to eat more, we must invest more. Investments - or taxes - are, like queuing, an exercise in civic virtue, representing the fairest means of distribution and access. But if we want fewer queues - and I understand that - then we have to invest more, pay more tax. I am sure the British people accept this. They know - as we know - what's good for them.
Finally, suppose we did agree that food provision could be left to the private sector, with the state intervening only to set standards, as happens in Europe, where things are different.
Consider for a moment where that would take us here. The same people would then argue that if something as essential as food could be so treated, then so could other important services such as health care and education.
After all, they would argue, if the people can be trusted to make their own arrangements for staying alive, then surely they should be trusted to make their own arrangements for improving the quality of that life.
And that, as I am sure you can see, would lead to another, altogether more political, question: what, then, would we, the Labour movement, be for? It's a sinister argument, and a silly one. I call upon the British people to reject it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3574089/If-the-state-did-our-shopping-wed-end-up-with-a-dogs-dinner.html
 
singveld said:
I read some of the things you post, you think singapore is rich, lots of sovereign reserve, therefore it is fair according to you, that gov should spread the money around and give to the poor.
Do you also think is unfair that some babies are born penniless, while other babies born to inherit millions, because their parent are rich? Maybe the society you want is that wealth to be taken from rich parent and spread around to poor too. Ridiculous right.
The world is unfair. Accept the fact.

Again. I repeat I am not talking about major welfare programmes just to give some decency to those people who find it tough. The low end of our society over time has got the blunt end of the stick. Their incomes have not move as much. We still have people who earn only a few hundred dollars a month while working full time. But they are just digits. In the push to drive up the GDP some people are left on the wake. A lot of detailed study need to be done to examine the plight of these.
 
another nail into welfare is evil argument

watch this video

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=Z287XL00

BBC the partys over how the west went bust. At 35:00 mins, they explain to the opposition supporters in singapore and aka people only able to see black and white, that social welfare make the people of the west totally unwillingly to save money, which they borrow excessively in debts and soon they will in big trouble. why save, why not borrow as much as you can, the gov with social welfare can save you.

social welfare poison the minds of the people and proof that welfare is evil. pap is right on this one.




not to mention the tens of thousands of asylum seekers going there because of their social welfare. (not mention in the video)

<object width="640" height="361"><param name="movie" value="http://www.megavideo.com/v/Y3GL05LO3d655f1c3ce035d54d0dabb64e987a032"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.megavideo.com/v/Y3GL05LO3d655f1c3ce035d54d0dabb64e987a032" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="361"></embed></object>
 
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another nail into welfare is evil argument

watch this video

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=Z287XL00

BBC the partys over how the west went bust. At 35:00 mins, they explain to the opposition supporters in singapore and aka people only able to see black and white, that social welfare make the people of the west totally unwillingly to save money, which they borrow excessively in debts and soon they will in big trouble. why save, why not borrow as much as you can, the gov with social welfare can save you.

social welfare poison the minds of the people and proof that welfare is evil. pap is right on this one.

not to mention the tens of thousands of asylum seekers going there because of their social welfare. (not mention in the video)

<object width="640" height="361"><param name="movie" value="http://www.megavideo.com/v/Y3GL05LO3d655f1c3ce035d54d0dabb64e987a032"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.megavideo.com/v/Y3GL05LO3d655f1c3ce035d54d0dabb64e987a032" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="361"></embed></object>

It is indeed very sad that there are still so many out there who are so politically naive. I guess the PAP had really done a hell of a job in brainwashing the people. Little wonder that despite all the screwed policies the PAP had committed in the past 10 to 15 years, 60% still voted them in the last GE. A majority of the forummers in this thread had already pointed out they are not advocating a replication of the British social welfare in its entirety here. The ill-effects of the British social welfare system had already been proven decades ago and there's no need to tell the intellectual and analytical forummers participating in this thread about that anymore. What the forummers are highlighting is that the PAP under the guise that the British (or European) style of social welfare is evil and then stand back and do nothing at all to help those who are truly in need and not out of their own will. It can't be a total British social welfare system or nothing at all. That's the stance the PAP is adopting and boy are they glad that there are forummers here who fell into their trap for thinking this way.
 
social welfare like the one in UK , which citizen are entitle as rights, is a bad idea. Instead of creating something for people to fall back on, it just create a group of people who are not willing to work.

In the past, Britain and the rest of the European countries could count on their colonies to supply them with cheap labour (slaves even), minerals and other raw materials and in turn forced them to buy their manufactured goods and costly services. Now they find it hard to survive without these two advantages.

Notwithstanding all these, we must thank and admire these countries for their generosities and contributions in helping the less fortunate countries and other non-government international welfare organisations.
 
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