Job Hunting Tips for OZ

[scroobal]

When you compared Jurong to Canberra, I realised that you had misunderstood.

Who do you place weight on when it comes to IT landscape in OZ and the world.?

U seem to backup your words using Gartner a lot, but I don't really place too much weights on them.

 

[Ash007]

This is one of the many reasons why I'm here as well. I really can't see how my children can grow in an oppressive education system in Singapore.

It always puzzled me how NUS gets such high ranking? From what I could gather over the years, its the same old shit of spoon-feeding and route learning starting from P1 in Singapore. How the hell did it get such high ranking when over in Australian University there is a total difference in learning, studying, creativity. If anyone could enlightened me on how NUS could get such high ranking please enlightened me on this. I've been puzzled by this for a long time. You just throw money on it and the ranking increases?

I am with you 100%. Singaporeans who can get into Uni in a 1st world country can't get into Singapore Uni. How absurd is that. So what happens to those that can't afford to go overseas. We all have friends anmd relatives as you correctly pointed out that we know.

For years, they wanted to make NUS some kind of elite but it cost them dearly. Makes me even more mad when they had kept 20% quoto for Malaysians some of whom had worst score than Singaporeans who could not get in.

 

[QXD]

I'm pretty sure the ranks are not on academic performance (there's no way to set an international standard on how tough to set Uni exams), but probably the amount of research per capita of PhD, research funding etc.

And we know how Ah Tiong and Ah Neh PhDs probably line up like dogs begging for a bone when it comes to coming to SG.

I'd like to find out the metrics sometime, but safe to say PAP has mastery yet again over skewing the statistics to get a high ranking but to the detriment of local Singaporeans.

It always puzzled me how NUS gets such high ranking? From what I could gather over the years, its the same old shit of spoon-feeding and route learning starting from P1 in Singapore. How the hell did it get such high ranking when over in Australian University there is a total difference in learning, studying, creativity. If anyone could enlightened me on how NUS could get such high ranking please enlightened me on this. I've been puzzled by this for a long time. You just throw money on it and the ranking increases?

 

[londoncabby]

This is one of the many reasons why I'm here as well. I really can't see how my children can grow in an oppressive education system in Singapore.

It always puzzled me how NUS gets such high ranking? From what I could gather over the years, its the same old shit of spoon-feeding and route learning starting from P1 in Singapore. How the hell did it get such high ranking when over in Australian University there is a total difference in learning, studying, creativity. If anyone could enlightened me on how NUS could get such high ranking please enlightened me on this. I've been puzzled by this for a long time. You just throw money on it and the ranking increases?

But those Aussie Uni all lousy what

 

[IWC2006]

I am with you 100%. Singaporeans who can get into Uni in a 1st world country can't get into Singapore Uni. How absurd is that. So what happens to those that can't afford to go overseas. We all have friends anmd relatives as you correctly pointed out that we know.

For years, they wanted to make NUS some kind of elite but it cost them dearly. Makes me even more mad when they had kept 20% quoto for Malaysians some of whom had worst score than Singaporeans who could not get in.

I did a Master with NUS but I didn't find any 'elite' substance in their course delivery. Its still v academic driven, and students mostly are from China and India. Though they have good facilities, I wasn't impressed. I rather do a Masters with UNSW or USydney, but in terms of cost wise is damn cheap, I spent under 6k for a Sg Master..hehe.

 

[IWC2006]

Some are R&D. The bulk is building systems, not off the shelf. Sorry if I did not make it clear. I actually kept repeating that its not off the shelf. If you work in a Bank IT, you can also work in the area.

Well I'm not refering just off the shell. In banks, they do build a software from ground up and they market those services to their clients or other banks as well. However, they still use a software development kit such as C++ or Microsoft .Net as writing a development tool is not their forte'. Its not surprising in large project there's hundreds of resources working on the project and NO - this is not done in Canberra.

Tend to disagree about your definition of mainstream. Mainstream has high end, mid level and low end. Those outside mainstream are typically gaming, proprietary software for small applications like remote senses, cameras, auto systems and R&D work etc. Very specialised in nature.

A case in point is centrelink system which requires all similar types of IT people and IT functions like a bank but there are no available software. Its very smiliar to a bank but a banks's receivables system won't do as the main platform. When completed a similar category of IT people and IT functions to that of banks are required. Its still mainstream. Its the design and build phase that is called High End.

Well all phases of project will go through the design and build phase, if you call it the 'high end' phase. So Do u mean all high-end banking projects are done in Canberra and low end in Sydney - I don't think this is the right assumption. U talking about Centrelink so its all about government or public services function. To me I don't call them high-end. Really, if you are talking about designing core platform then it doesn't make sense to move your project team to Canberra far from your client or the business as they have a stake in designing the Target operating model, probably something you are not familiar with as most of your experiences are with the public sector. Such phase,typically consultants are brought in to help design and impress the senior executives.

Again I'm not sure what is your point as going back to the debate about why companies are willing to pay premimum to contractors which to me is very much obvious and there is no rocket science about it.

 

[scroobal]

You are probabaly right. I suspect that they had pulled in a number of well regarded academic expats from the 70s onwards , some of whom carried weight in terms of reserach papers.

Nothing spectacular about any of the local Uni even in a particular discipline.

I'm pretty sure the ranks are not on academic performance (there's no way to set an international standard on how tough to set Uni exams), but probably the amount of research per capita of PhD, research funding etc.

And we know how Ah Tiong and Ah Neh PhDs probably line up like dogs begging for a bone when it comes to coming to SG.

I'd like to find out the metrics sometime, but safe to say PAP has mastery yet again over skewing the statistics to get a high ranking but to the detriment of local Singaporeans.

 

[scroobal]

I got the same impression from others that attended post grad in NUS. Old man talks so much about Singapore but its Alumni has not captured anything.

I did a Master with NUS but I didn't find any 'elite' substance in their course delivery. Its still v academic driven, and students mostly are from China and India. Though they have good facilities, I wasn't impressed. I rather do a Masters with UNSW or USydney, but in terms of cost wise is damn cheap, I spent under 6k for a Sg Master..hehe.

 

[IWC2006]

When you compared Jurong to Canberra, I realised that you had misunderstood.

Who do you place weight on when it comes to IT landscape in OZ and the world.?

PlS LA, I was refering merely on the location of the place. Even how high tech Canberra is, they are not a location attracting he top talents to be there. Some people want to be close to their family and see them on a daily basis, thus flying in and out is not an option. Canberra needs to pay the extra premimum to get people to work there is a FACT.

Oz is not US by scale and size, but there's quite a lot of good software builders here especiall in the gaming space. People take pride in their work and they can work years as a software engineer and never get tired of it. Sg, however, will import mediocre cheaper indians to do the work. One thing Oz can do is to market themselves better (Americans are very good at marketing but they don't neccessary are the one designing all the component) and position themselves as a innovation centre in Asia Pacific. Even they may have done a lot of R&D in Canberra, I don't think this has cascade to the rest of the country. To many Oz is pretty backwards in usign technology in the workplace. Eg, Seattle is the born city of Microsoft and there's a lot of geeks based there thus creating a 'innovative village' feel of the city.

 

[scroobal]

I think you are missing the point. Banking platforms are generally off the shelf. Hardly any public listed companies engage in greenfields acitvites. . Major automations usually are driven by public sector activites such as defence such a submarine tracking systems etc. When there is a hub, that does it, it will also has the critical mass to do other high end dsign and build for private sector as well. Nokia, Motorola etc. Just take a drive around Canberra , probably the world's most boring city but you surprised by teh numbers of major IT firms lining up the streets.

If its off the shelf with customisation, might as well do it in Sydney and Melbourne.

You also struggled to understand why contractors get high premuims and stay in the same org for years.

Ash007 got the point.

Well all phases of project will go through the design and build phase, if you call it the 'high end' phase. So Do u mean all high-end banking projects are done in Canberra and low end in Sydney - I don't think this is the right assumption. U talking about Centrelink so its all about government or public services function. To me I don't call them high-end. Really, if you are talking about designing core platform then it doesn't make sense to move your project team to Canberra far from your client or the business as they have a stake in designing the Target operating model, probably something you are not familiar with as most of your experiences are with the public sector. Such phase,typically consultants are brought in to help design and impress the senior executives.

Again I'm not sure what is your point as going back to the debate about why companies are willing to pay premimum to contractors which to me is very much obvious and there is no rocket science about it.

 

[IWC2006]

This is one of the many reasons why I'm here as well. I really can't see how my children can grow in an oppressive education system in Singapore.

It always puzzled me how NUS gets such high ranking? From what I could gather over the years, its the same old shit of spoon-feeding and route learning starting from P1 in Singapore. How the hell did it get such high ranking when over in Australian University there is a total difference in learning, studying, creativity. If anyone could enlightened me on how NUS could get such high ranking please enlightened me on this. I've been puzzled by this for a long time. You just throw money on it and the ranking increases?

U have to understanding how the ranking methololdogy works. They don't really rank them based on their teaching style but their research output, academic impressions, quality of students etc etc. One thing Sg gov do smartly is having very close alliance with the top US univerities like MIT, Stanford thus covering their weakness in the internationational landscape. Also, by putting all the resources in one university, it certainly helps.

Again, this is something OZ has not done very well. They are perceived to be accepting lower quality sudents and treating oversea students as the cash-cow. ANU did so well in world ranking because they are very research based and produced good research outputs. Most top US univerities like Harvard, Yale are very research focus then teaching focus. U will be amazed how many patents and publications they produced every year versus rest of the world. Even Japan is way ahead of Oz in this aspect.

 

[scroobal]

Jurong is an industrial site. There are no industrial actvity in Canberra which has the highest median income among cities. Its not easy to land a private sector job in Canberra because it looks for the high end chaps.

Most leave their families in Sydney and other cities as it is dreaful place for families. They can afford it.

PlS LA, I was refering merely on the location of the place. Even how high tech Canberra is, they are not a location attracting he top talents to be there. .

 

[IWC2006]

I think you are missing the point. Banking platforms are generally off the shelf. Hardly any public listed companies engage in greenfields acitvites. . Major automations usually are driven by public sector activites such as defence such a submarine tracking systems etc. When there is a hub, that does it, it will also has the critical mass to do other high end dsign and build for private sector as well. Nokia, Motorola etc. Just take a drive around Canberra , probably the world's most boring city but you surprised by teh numbers of major IT firms lining up the streets.

If its off the shelf with customisation, might as well do it in Sydney and Melbourne.

Greenfield or not, financial services drive the engine of the economy. I disagree with the banks platform are all off-the-shell. In this age, banks are looking beyond stablishing their own platform - they want to go out to the world and sell their platform. In the ex-bank i work, they revamped the Core platform from ground up and spent millions on it. I don't think you have much exposure working for a bank, mostly just based on reports or hear and say.

You also struggled to understand why contractors get high premuims and stay in the same org for years.

I don't struggle, my point is very clear. So whats your reasoning behind this point then? I haven't hear anything from you. All your said was the Oracle DBA got paid premium in the same firm for many years, so - whats your explaination then?




Ash007 got the point.

So what is your reason

 

[IWC2006]

Jurong is an industrial site. There are no industrial actvity in Canberra which has the highest median income among cities. Its not easy to land a private sector job in Canberra because it looks for the high end chaps.

Most leave their families in Sydney and other cities as it is dreaful place for families. They can afford it.

PLS LA. How many populations are there living in Canberra? 500,000 perhaps vs 4+ mil in Sydney? if Canberra has no other industries like manufacturing or retail other then gov or IT then the average median income is of course higher in Canberra purely based on the smaller population and the single industry, such statistics you struggle to understand?

Yeah yeah yeah, you had to justify so much just to tell everyone you are based in boring Canberra because it pays better then other cities. Got it.

 

[Ash007]

Before IWC2006 and Scrobal kills each other. Let me chime in a little. I think this thread started with a very confusing, limited definition of IT for "high-end" "low-end". Please remember, the word IT cannot adequately describe what you are doing in your job. IT is very diverse with various areas, skills required. I think a more proper way of classifying the different IT jobs is by the skills, experience that is required. I'll try and generalized these below, please add more or correct any mistake I've made.

Nasa,aerospace, Defence, skills needed to participate in this is very high, you also have to worry about security clearance in order to be a in this IT sector. On top of your usual skills in software development skills, you also need to have knowledge on how other components works. EMP, in case of a nuclear strike. Aerodynamics of an airplane. Heavy encryption, protocol to avoid revealing information to the enemy etc. What scrobal means in this case is that skills needed for development in this area is very niche. How many software developer out there has a Phd in nuclear physics, aerodynamics to start developing a software to be used in a nuclear powered submarine, plane, vehicle? That is why there is a premium in hiring people like these.

Banking/Financial sector. From a software perspective, its all about transactions. Think about how many transactions you can push over the server, DB etc. What is interesting here is that, you also have to have some knowledge, experiences in banking/finance in calculating, crunching these transactions. Think of the Stock exchange, how many brokers are there in it that has to key in buy/sells on multiple companies with different options/derivative/stocks/short/long. The skills needed here, on top of your usual software skills, is understanding how the bank/finance works. I think what IWC2006 is trying to say is that this can be as complex as a Nasa, defence development, its just different knowledge, skills that are needed.

I have a couple of others "Areas" in mind. But I think I'll leave it for others here to fill them in.

Application development, user space software like Office.

Embedded development, kernel space software that works on dedicated boxes devices. Think, your home router, television, fridge, printers.

Web development, website development that uses Java, .net, AJax, Php, Perl etc? This the latest trend of cloud computing, server, client interactions. It also muddles the water a little now with application development. Think of google office, google chat, google wave.

Helpdesk, user support, IT support for user, only skills here seem to be a willingness to tell users to push the reset button.

Note: each "areas" has its own high-end, low-end stuff that you can do in it. At the end of the day, if you can solve a company problem while others can't you will be paid big bucks for your effort. My uni professor once said, employers hire you not because you have a degree, but that you can show problem solving skill. This is more important then a degree from NUS.

One more thing, the question on contractor. I think being a contractor or perm is really a very personal choice. Employers would hire a contractor for various reasons. Some contractors are in the market just because they think they can earn more $$ out of it. They don't have any real skills to speak of. Some are actually very good and are hired because of their reputation for helping companies solve their problem. That is why they can survive even if every job is short-term. If you are really good at what you are doing, and has the right network, connections, being a contractor definitely pays more in the long run. If you just want to relax, not bothered earning every single cent out there, need more quality of life with family, then being a perm is a better choice. Personally, I'm aiming for a family, there is just too much in life to just work. I'm not getting younger anymore.

 

[scroobal]

Thank you for that. Much appreciated especially the effort and patience to put it together.

I acknowledge my part in not defining it well. Gosh, until you mentioned NASA, and CSIRO, it was goiung nowhere.

Do consider the niche high end as I sense that you are cut out for it looking at the way that you saw it holistically. There is a Singapore cluster operating out of Canberra, Silicon V, etc made up of ex-scholars and non scholars. Pretty tight knit and most have their family homes in Sydney. One of them is the friend that I mentioned. Thats how I came to be aware of this. Interestingly none did the tertiary education in Singapore.

Never been confined by time and space nor by what others think but be tempered by opportunities. I operate from 3 countries at any one time and I constantly update myself and others.

Before IWC2006 and Scrobal kills each other. Let me chime in a little. I think this thread started with a very confusing, limited definition of IT for "high-end" "low-end". Please remember, the word IT cannot adequately describe what you are doing in your job. IT is very diverse with various areas, skills required.

 

[Ash007]

Thanks for the vote of confidence mate. I get bored very easily, thats why I did not do very well in my O's in Singapore. Why bother memorizing the whole textbook when a computer can recall the same paragraph with better accuracy? Coming to Australia was a real eye opener, I've learned a lot in this country. There is more then one way to skin a cat. I'm always on the look out for interesting things to do. Over here at work, I'm the go to person for major problems. I'm still a PR, next year I will apply for citizenship. Aero, Defence, needs security clearance, being a citizen is one of the requirements IIRC.

Can I ask, how would someone like me start looking for jobs in this niche market? I'm pretty inexperienced, I know there is a lot of stuff in it that I need to learn and work hard on. I won't mind working in a junior role as long as the pay is reasonable. I'm still single, so I can still move around.

As mentioned before, I'm not surprised this cluster of ex-Singaporean had their tertiary education outside of Singapore. The education system in Singapore is very different, compared to overseas, Singapore university still lacks how to make its student "self-sufficient", to learn how to learn so to speak. I still remember the shock I had when I only have to do 5 maths problems for a tutorial. In Singapore, you have to finish one whole book of repeated questions. Less is MORE!

Thank you for that. Much appreciated especially the effort and patience to put it together.

I acknowledge my part in not defining it well. Gosh, until you mentioned NASA, and CSIRO, it was goiung nowhere.

Do consider the niche high end as I sense that you are cut out for it looking at the way that you saw it holistically. There is a Singapore cluster operating out of Canberra, Silicon V, etc made up of ex-scholars and non scholars. Pretty tight knit and most have their family homes in Sydney. One of them is the friend that I mentioned. Thats how I came to be aware of this. Interestingly none did the tertiary education in Singapore.

Never been confined by time and space nor by what others think but be tempered by opportunities. I operate from 3 countries at any one time and I constantly update myself and others.

 

[scroobal]

Good on you. Seems to me that you know where you are heading. Wish you the very best.

Over here at work, I'm the go to person for major problems. I'm still a PR, next year I will apply for citizenship. Aero, Defence, needs security clearance, being a citizen is one of the requirements IIRC.

 

[neddy]

hahaha ...

A NON-COMFORMIST struggling in a COMFORMIST society.

daydream when studying for O levels.
not sure how I managed to passed.
family objection of poly - so end up in jc
having trouble with skirts/birds/girls during 'A' levels.
g/f left me, cannot study, repeat 'A' levels

wondering why studies do dry and uninteresting.

during sec 2, i already ask ceacher why must we remember dates/events for the history subject - why not present it like comics or the HK drama serials
i was ahead of my time about revolutioning history subject teching methods.
--- but i copped it from the ceacher, kena marked until I make the history subject ... history

Attended red-brick university in the Old Country, it is the old system in place where we study 3 or 4 subjects per academic session rather than the modern modular units. On one subject, one lecturer totally contradict the other lecturer - got worried. How to answer exam question. THIS IS THE EYE-OPENER, MATE!!!

We are so used to Singapore education where everything is in black or white that we failed to explore relativity and form our opinions based on our interpretation of the evidence we found before us.

I always get into trouble with the Singapore system (from caning in Primary school to brushes with the law during transit in Chingapore not too long ago), because it is unable to accommodate me.

seems like a loooong time ago

Thanks for the vote of confidence mate. I get bored very easily, thats why I did not do very well in my O's in Singapore. Why bother memorizing the whole textbook when a computer can recall the same paragraph with better accuracy? Coming to Australia was a real eye opener, I've learned a lot in this country. There is more then one way to skin a cat. I'm always on the look out for interesting things to do. Over here at work, I'm the go to person for major problems. I'm still a PR, next year I will apply for citizenship. Aero, Defence, needs security clearance, being a citizen is one of the requirements IIRC.

As mentioned before, I'm not surprised this cluster of ex-Singaporean had their tertiary education outside of Singapore. The education system in Singapore is very different, compared to overseas, Singapore university still lacks how to make its student "self-sufficient", to learn how to learn so to speak. I still remember the shock I had when I only have to do 5 maths problems for a tutorial. In Singapore, you have to finish one whole book of repeated questions. Less is MORE!

 

[IWC2006]

Before IWC2006 and Scrobal kills each other. Let me chime in a little. I think this thread started with a very confusing, limited definition of IT for "high-end" "low-end". Please remember, the word IT cannot adequately describe what you are doing in your job. IT is very diverse with various areas, skills required. I think a more proper way of classifying the different IT jobs is by the skills, experience that is required. I'll try and generalized these below, please add more or correct any mistake I've made.

Nasa,aerospace, Defence, skills needed to participate in this is very high, you also have to worry about security clearance in order to be a in this IT sector. On top of your usual skills in software development skills, you also need to have knowledge on how other components works. EMP, in case of a nuclear strike. Aerodynamics of an airplane. Heavy encryption, protocol to avoid revealing information to the enemy etc. What scrobal means in this case is that skills needed for development in this area is very niche. How many software developer out there has a Phd in nuclear physics, aerodynamics to start developing a software to be used in a nuclear powered submarine, plane, vehicle? That is why there is a premium in hiring people like these.

Easier to define this as 'niche' or 'non-commerce' software. Again, this is not restricted to high tech science & engineering, even those CGI / robotics technology you seen in Hollywood movies are considered very niche skills. I'm sure there's a number of Smart Australian developers are working in this space

Banking/Financial sector. From a software perspective, its all about transactions. Think about how many transactions you can push over the server, DB etc. What is interesting here is that, you also have to have some knowledge, experiences in banking/finance in calculating, crunching these transactions. Think of the Stock exchange, how many brokers are there in it that has to key in buy/sells on multiple companies with different options/derivative/stocks/short/long. The skills needed here, on top of your usual software skills, is understanding how the bank/finance works. I think what IWC2006 is trying to say is that this can be as complex as a Nasa, defence development, its just different knowledge, skills that are needed.
Actually is more then number crunching, you have to understand how business data can be structured in a database for commercial use down to the business unit level. There's cases where different clients want different things. In certain cases, the algorithm of translating securities data for certain financial instruments, such as derivatives - can be highly complex and require a lot of analysis and logic programming. One of my architect spent months just to develop a algorithm just to help the business automate the report generation process for a big client. The source code are thousand of lines and don't know how many brain cells have been killed (he's half bald already). Thus, u can never call IT development in the financial industry as 'low-end' as we are dealing with billion of dollars exchanges and settlement every day across borders. Seriously one need not be in the high-tech industry to consider as 'high end' or niche because by itself banking & finance has so many complex ever changing products thus only those work in this industry understand the complexity. Thus, when it comes to recruitment and selection, those with the financial industry often viewed highly and they can branch into any industry but those who don't will experience difficulties competing with those already in this industry.






I have a couple of others "Areas" in mind. But I think I'll leave it for others here to fill them in.

Application development, user space software like Office.

Embedded development, kernel space software that works on dedicated boxes devices. Think, your home router, television, fridge, printers.

Web development, website development that uses Java, .net, AJax, Php, Perl etc? This the latest trend of cloud computing, server, client interactions. It also muddles the water a little now with application development. Think of google office, google chat, google wave.

Helpdesk, user support, IT support for user, only skills here seem to be a willingness to tell users to push the reset button.

Note: each "areas" has its own high-end, low-end stuff that you can do in it. At the end of the day, if you can solve a company problem while others can't you will be paid big bucks for your effort. My uni professor once said, employers hire you not because you have a degree, but that you can show problem solving skill. This is more important then a degree from NUS.

One more thing, the question on contractor. I think being a contractor or perm is really a very personal choice. Employers would hire a contractor for various reasons. Some contractors are in the market just because they think they can earn more $$ out of it. They don't have any real skills to speak of. Some are actually very good and are hired because of their reputation for helping companies solve their problem. That is why they can survive even if every job is short-term. If you are really good at what you are doing, and has the right network, connections, being a contractor definitely pays more in the long run. If you just want to relax, not bothered earning every single cent out there, need more quality of life with family, then being a perm is a better choice. Personally, I'm aiming for a family, there is just too much in life to just work. I'm not getting younger anymore.

Employers hire contractors mainly they need people who can come in deliver what is expected in a project and let go when they no longer need them. Some stay around longer purely there's extension of the project or the specialised skills is still required. As I said before, companies these days want to stay lean and keeping a pool of expensive permanent IT team is no longer required. Technology come and go so one needs to develop transitional skills reinventing themselves to stay long in the industry. Thats why I never like to be a technie and rather to be more business focus and keep doing what I do best - project management. Good luck in your venture.