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For those who believe in truly free capital market economy fully backed by

Z

Zombie

Guest
truly free democratic government,

especially those from old SBF who believe that USA's economic system will always beat all the others including the China's.

No argument is needed.

The leader and lawmakers of USA, have just given you a good tight slap to wake you up. :biggrin:

1) This artificial propping-up by market intervention from the government is not what you should see, in a truly free capital market economy.

2) This bailout plan is benefitting mainly the minority rich and not something agreed by most of the majority poor, who has to bear the burden, ironically in a truly democratic system.

It shows that a truly free capital market cannot always self-recover and "Check and Balance" mechanism needs not always work in this economic system nor the democratic system of the USA government, to have prevented this crisis.

USA always complain about China's state interference in the economy. And now, USA is meddling with its own, just like what China always do. A big joke, isn't it? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

http://www.financemarkets.co.uk/2008/10/05/us-700bn-bailout-plan-finally-approved/

October 5, 2008
US $700bn bailout plan finally approved

by Kay Murchie


Following a week of talks, the $700 billion (£380 billion) bailout plan has finally been approved.

The plan had been designed to prevent financial meltdown and was essential to the financial security of every American, according to President George W. Bush.

On Friday night, the vote which was nervously watched by Wall Street, saw the House of Representatives approve the rescue plan by a margin of 263 to 171.

Following the announcement, President Bush said the plan will take time to implement and said this step represents decisive action to ease the credit crunch that is threatening our economy.

Meanwhile, House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi, said we now need to shine the bright light of accountability on our financial markets to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

Ben Bernanke, the US Federal Reserve’s chairman, said the he legislation is a critical step toward stabilising our financial markets and ensuring an uninterrupted flow of credit to households and businesses.

Late last week, fears that the plan wouldn’t receive approval sent shares plummeting on Wall Street and throughout the world.

The plan was revised late last week and includes sweeteners such as tax breaks for families and businesses, as well as raising the amount of savings guarantee from $100,000 to $250,000.

In related news, figures from the Labor Department show that US employers axed 159,000 jobs last month - the highest for over 5 years.
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
Now, where are all those old SBF boys/girls that fiercely defended the USA's laissez-faire capitalism and its superpower status?

:biggrin:



http://www.businessweek.com/print/globalbiz/content/sep2008/gb20080929_019959.htm

Europe September 29, 2008, 2:46PM EST text size: TT
France: Laissez-Faire Capitalism is Over
President Nicolas Sarkozy declared the theory that the market "always knows best" is finished
by Elitsa Vucheva

Both France and Germany on Thursday (25 September) said the current financial crisis would leave important marks on the world economy, with French president Nicolas Sarkozy declaring that the under-regulated system we once knew is now "finished," and German finance minister Peer Steinbruck saying the crisis marks the beginning of a multi-polar world, where the US is no longer a superpower.
Speaking to an audience of some 4,000 supporters in Toulon, France, Mr Sarkozy said the financial turmoil had highlighted the need to re-invent capitalism with a strong dose of morality, as well as to put in place a better regulatory system.

"The idea of the all-powerful market that must not be constrained by any rules, by any political intervention, was mad. The idea that markets were always right was mad," Mr Sarkozy said.

"The present crisis must incite us to refound capitalism on the basis of ethics and work & Self-regulation as a way of solving all problems is finished. Laissez-faire is finished. The all-powerful market that always knows best is finished," he added.

He accused "this system that allows the ones responsible for a disaster to leave with a golden parachute" of having "increased inequality, demoralised the middle classes and fed [market] speculation."

A European response
The French president also criticised "the logic of short-term financial profit" and said risks were hidden "to obtain ever more exorbitant profits" — something which, he said, was not the true face of capitalism.

"The market economy is a regulated market ... in the service of all. It is not the law of the jungle; it is not exorbitant profits for a few and sacrifices for all the others. The market economy is competition that lowers prices ... that benefits all consumers."

The speech by Mr Sarkozy, who is also the EU's current president-in-office, echoes similar statements he made earlier this week, when he called for an international meeting to discuss the crisis before the end of the year.

On Thursday, he also called on Europe to "reflect on its capacity to act in case of an emergency, to re-consider its rules, its principles," while learning the lessons from what is happening worldwide.

Mr Sarkozy said: "For all Europeans, it is understood that the response to the crisis should be a European one."

"In my capacity of president of the Union, I will propose initiatives in that respect at the next European Council [15 October]," he added.

'The world will never be the same again'
Meanwhile, German finance minister Peer Steinbruck criticised the US for failing to act in the wake of the crisis and said it would now lose its status of "superpower."

"The US will lose its status as the superpower of the world financial system. This world will become multi-polar," with the emergence of centres in Asia and Europe, he told the German parliament on Thursday.

"The world will never be as it was before the crisis," he added.
Mr Steinbruck's criticism of the US has been amongst the sharpest yet made since the beginning of the crisis.

He notably blamed Washington for resisting stricter regulation, even after the crisis started last summer, and said this free-market-above-all attitude and the argument "used by these 'laissez-faire' purveyors was as simple as it was dangerous," the Associated Press reports.

He stressed that Germany had made recommendations last year for more rules, which Washington refused to consider.

They "elicited mockery at best or were seen as a typical example of Germans' penchant for over-regulation," Mr Steinbruck said.

Earlier this week, German foreign minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier also said the US should have listened to the advice coming from Europe, notably from Germany, that more control was needed.

"It is a discussion that we have had for a long time in Europe, that the completely unregulated parts of the international financial market must be more closely monitored and that we must try to reach an agreement on common regulations," he said during a visit to the New York Stock Exchange on Wednesday, according to Forbes.
 

BlueCat

Alfrescian
Loyal
when the times are good,everything that is transparent and open is good.
but when times are bad,look at the so call "most open" market,they are going to fall back on "close" market.
they re-introduce all those controls that were discarded when the times are good,like short-selling.
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
when the times are good,everything that is transparent and open is good.
but when times are bad,look at the so call "most open" market,they are going to fall back on "close" market.
they re-introduce all those controls that were discarded when the times are good,like short-selling.


If everything had always been transparent and open, you would not see a crisis this serious, to warrant a state interference. :cool:

But this crisis is happening in a country that is well praised for its transparency and openness, check and balance system, democratic freedom, true competition, free-market economy, deregulations bla bla bla... by many boys/girls in the old SBF. How did it happen? :rolleyes:
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/t...le4882390.ece?print=yes&randnum=1223316291031

From The Sunday TimesOctober 5, 2008

Old ‘friends’ are happy to blame US for the chaos
Irwin Stelzer: American Account
If Americans think our economic difficulties are only about sub-prime mortgages, securitisation, the drying up of credit, falling house prices and the like, they should think again. That’s not how the rest of the world sees it. Yes, all these problems are on the list of difficulties. But, more importantly, foreigners see this as the end of what Henry Luce memorably called the American century. America caused the world’s economic problems; America will pay a terrible price.

“Everything happening now in the economic and financial sphere began in the United States. This is not the irresponsibility of specific individuals but the irresponsibility of the system that claims leadership,” gloated Vladimir Putin, Russia’s prime minister. Better that than to blame the collapse of his country’s stock market and the flight of capital on his confiscation of foreign investment and invasion of Georgia.

But Putin is not alone in pillorying the US. “The origin and centre of gravity of the problem is clearly in the USA,” German finance minister Peer Steinbrück pronounced. And Gordon Brown, prime minister of our closest ally until recently, said his nation’s economic problems were imported from America, a view shared by opposition leader David Cameron. How the Americans forced Northern Rock and Bradford & Bingley to write mortgages for more than the value of the homes being purchased or persuaded B&B not to check the veracity of mortgage applications remains unexplained.

Name an economic problem and its origin is George Bush’s US and the allegedly radical deregulation policies of the neoconservatives. In the blame game that is now fashionable, the sensible made-in-the-UK-and-EU policies were overwhelmed by the failure of the American authorities to supervise their financial-services industry properly.

There is worse. The failure of US politicians to agree immediately on a $700 billion bailout package shows its politicians are interested only in getting reelected. Never mind that the package passed easily on Friday, and that Treasury secretary Hank Paulson and Federal Reserve Board chairman Ben Bernanke have loosened credit while the Bank of England and the European Central Bank keep interest rates high. Or that America has put in place a huge, industry-wide rescue package in less time than it took the British government to decide what to do about a single bank, Northern Rock.

And in far less time than the Europeans, who after a period of denial are reduced to squabbling over how to cope with Ireland’s decision to ensure all bank depositors against loss. The French call for a coordinated EU-wide bailout has fallen on deaf ears: the Germans, who contend that their banks have largely escaped the US contagion, fear such a programme will end up as a raid on their treasury. And Brown prefers ad hoc responses to specific bank failures, and the establishment of still another committee to coordinate a general response, should he decide on one.

But all is not gloom in Europe. Its leaders are overjoyed at what they see as the discrediting of the American model. France’s Nicolas Sarkozy contends that the “idea of an all-powerful market without any rules and any political intervention is mad . . . [and that] self-regulation is finished. Laissez faire is finished. The all-powerful market which is always right is finished.” That no American politician or policymaker ever proposed that the financial system operate “without any rules” matters not to America’s critics. Neither are these same critics embarrassed to have spent years criticising Sarbanes-Oxley as an example of American overregulation before switching to the position that more rather than less US regulation is needed.

The important thing is that the American model is dead. Or so they think - hope, to be precise. No longer can the US force its version of capitalism on the developing world or turn its nose up at the alternative models of authoritarian capitalism offered by China and Russia. Or at France’s protection of vital infra-structure companies, such as Danone.
There’s more. The burgeoning federal deficit marks the end of the dollar as a reserve currency. And good riddance to it. Its exalted status only served to shore up America’s prestige and allow the US to borrow to support unwise adventures such as those in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As an American here in London who happens to be an economist and is known as a conservative believer in democratic capitalism, I seem to be the guest-of-choice on television programmes hunting desperately for someone, anyone, willing to support the US system. The critics to whom I find myself responding range from politicians on the left, who are delighted that capitalism has run into difficulties, to those on the right, who blame the US for the loss of their friends’ City jobs.

Some complain that by bailing out Bear Stearns, America let loose the force of moral hazard on the world, encouraging sinners to sin again while others complain that by not bailing out Lehman Brothers the US cost thousands of well-paid Brits their jobs. Some complain that the Paulson rescue plan rewards the greedy bankers who unleashed the American disease on Europe, while others complain that by not passing the Paulson plan on the first try we exacerbated the problems of European financial institutions.

America’s policymakers pay this cavilling and caterwauling no heed. Their job is to get the recovery package up and running. That will be no easy thing: the US Treasury can’t just pick up the phone and place an order for $250 billion - the first tranche of the $700 billion package - of dicey assets. An auction system has to be devised, advisers put in place, and - most difficult - values assigned to the paper for which there might be no market.

Then they have to get on with reforming the regulatory system. The net effect will be to make capitalism, described by the great economist Joseph Schumpeter as a force for creative destruction, a bit less destructive and probably a bit less creative. But it will nevertheless get on with its task of delivering and fairly distributing steady improvements in material wellbeing.

Irwin Stelzer is a business adviser and director of economic policy studies at the Hudson Institute

[email protected]
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
Is this check and balance system maintained by an independant judicial system that fiercely upholds the law with utmost transparency and openness?


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Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
truly free democratic government,

especially those from old SBF who believe that USA's economic system will always beat all the others including the China's.

No argument is needed.

The leader and lawmakers of USA, have just given you a good tight slap to wake you up. :biggrin:

1) This artificial propping-up by market intervention from the government is not what you should see, in a truly free capital market economy.

2) This bailout plan is benefitting mainly the minority rich and not something agreed by most of the majority poor, who has to bear the burden, ironically in a truly democratic system.

It shows that a truly free capital market cannot always self-recover and "Check and Balance" mechanism needs not always work in this economic system nor the democratic system of the USA government, to have prevented this crisis.

USA always complain about China's state interference in the economy. And now, USA is meddling with its own, just like what China always do. A big joke, isn't it? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

http://www.financemarkets.co.uk/2008/10/05/us-700bn-bailout-plan-finally-approved/

Dear Zombie,

The diminish influence of USA in the world is the foregone conclusions one decade ago when its accumulated deficits are so enormous. In fact, I would say that the Europeans were waiting for the chance to take over US dollars as reserve currency by using the Euros.

Unfortunately, in this present crisis, Europeans' own banking system was hurt. It seems that only two giants left, the two biggest creditors of US, China and Japan, would be able to play that influential role now.

The debate on de-regulation vs regulation will always be there; I mean, it has existed for decades. I am for the middle path. There are definitely a need for regulations but over-regulation will not do the market good.

I have read an article in HK that says that this minibond issue is partly due to "de-regulation" moves by HKMA in competition against Singapore to maintain as the main Financial Centre in Asia. Due to this competition in attracting fund managers and trade in financial instruments, regulations were lax and in turn, consumers' interests were compromised.

The capitalist world based on transparency and free flow of information. But it seems that asymmetric information still exist, no matter what.

Goh Meng Seng
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
Mr Goh

Foregone conclusion one decade ago? It was not difficult for you to find some boys/girls in old SBF just 2 years ago, insisting that USA is a safe haven for putting in cash assets. Their only argument was that USA has the right systems to weather through anything. I like to see their expressions now, had they put their moneys where their mouths are.

US's brand of deregulation had something to do with the hastening of 1997 Asian Crisis. Ironically, this deregulation (or lack of regulation) brings a new crisis to their own backyards, and they are forsaking their holiest policy of non-intervention by the state.

:smile:
 

chinkangkor

Alfrescian
Loyal
Ironically, it is the socialist bent of wanting to help to bring up home ownership by giving loans to the less creditworthy plus the greed on wall street that have caused all this mess.

The imbalance of payments among countries have helped to create cheap source of funds from which the property bubbles are created.
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
Ironically, it is the socialist bent of wanting to help to bring up home ownership by giving loans to the less creditworthy plus the greed on wall street that have caused all this mess.

If any single group of persons can do whatever they want, in whichever ways they like, and doing so brings catastrophe to everyone else, then I would say that they are still behaving like cowboys of the wild wild west; There are no rules except that from the double-barrels in their hands. It is a myth that USA has proper Check and Balance systems in place.



The imbalance of payments among countries have helped to create cheap source of funds from which the property bubbles are created.

Then USA should be blamed for consuming more than producing. That is why they have imbalance of payments. It is the same reason for the subprime crisis; the people are consuming (housing) more than they can produced (income). It boils down to a lack of regulations in managing excessive consumptions.

And if imbalance of payments is the main cause, then China would be the one suffering the most impact from the crisis. Apparently they are hardly affected.


:smile:
 

chinkangkor

Alfrescian
Loyal
If any single group of persons can do whatever they want, in whichever ways they like, and doing so brings catastrophe to everyone else, then I would say that they are still behaving like cowboys of the wild wild west; There are no rules except that from the double-barrels in their hands. It is a myth that USA has proper Check and Balance systems in place.

It is the price we are now paying for US financial innovations on Wall Street. Regulations didn't quite catch up with all those creative financial products.
 

chinkangkor

Alfrescian
Loyal
Then USA should be blamed for consuming more than producing. That is why they have imbalance of payments. It is the same reason for the subprime crisis; the people are consuming (housing) more than they can produced (income). It boils down to a lack of regulations in managing excessive consumptions.

The US market is one of the engines of growth for global economy. Many countries depend on US for their export industries which have created jobs for many of their residents. Instead of letting their currency appreciates, these countries prefer to use their foreign exchange reserves to provide cheap credit for US, in the process help to keep their own currencies from appreciating, if possible.

The saving rate in US is indeed low by international standard. A higher saving rate will be better for US.
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
It is the price we are now paying for US financial innovations on Wall Street. Regulations didn't quite catch up with all those creative financial products.

The US market is one of the engines of growth for global economy. Many countries depend on US for their export industries which have created jobs for many of their residents. Instead of letting their currency appreciates, these countries prefer to use their foreign exchange reserves to provide cheap credit for US, in the process help to keep their own currencies from appreciating, if possible.
The saving rate in US is indeed low by international standard. A higher saving rate will be better for US.

For many years, USA know very well the effect of this cheap credit.
Is it not a failure of USA, for not putting in the right regulations to prevent this crisis from happening?
 

banova888

Alfrescian
Loyal
If everything had always been transparent and open, you would not see a crisis this serious, to warrant a state interference. :cool:

But this crisis is happening in a country that is well praised for its transparency and openness, check and balance system, democratic freedom, true competition, free-market economy, deregulations bla bla bla... by many boys/girls in the old SBF. How did it happen? :rolleyes:

Do you think the same can happen in Singapore :confused:
 

chinkangkor

Alfrescian
Loyal
1) This artificial propping-up by market intervention from the government is not what you should see, in a truly free capital market economy.

A 100% free market economy only exists in theory. In practice, all types of economies have some forms of regulations. The difference is in degrees.

The bailout plan is to help prevent a collapse of the financial system. The US govt would not have intervened if the failures of individual banks had not had a serious impact on the rest of the economy.
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
The financial crisis has nothing to do with the judicial system.

You do not see where I came from.

This is what I said [Is this check and balance system maintained by an independant judicial system that fiercely upholds the law with utmost transparency and openness?]

The prerequisite would be a regulatory system that outlaws certain harmful business practices.
 
Z

Zombie

Guest
It is certainly regulatory oversight.

You are being nice. This is no oversight. USA thought liberalisation, deregulation, non-state intervention are the keys to allow flexibility and response to economic changes. They believed that the market would recover on its own. :biggrin:
 
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