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Fixing Capitalism - BBC Debate, Davos 2012

Fook Seng

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The widening income inequality between individuals in both rich and poor countries has given rise to mass movements like Occupy Wall Street. In Davos 2012, OccupyWEF also made its presence felt. One of the key discussion topics at the World Economic Forum 2012 was addressing the issue of income inequality and one approach suggested was how to fix capitalism, a 20th century concept to be relevant in a 21st century world. Below is a summary of a BBC debate held in conjunction with WEF, Davos 2012.
http://www.weforum.org/sessions/summary/fixing-capitalism-0
 
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Fook Seng

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zhihau said:
do the participants need to keep a stiff upper lip during the debate? :confused::confused::confused:

See for yourself in the Youtube of the entire debate. I thought the debate was fairly open and frank.
 
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Bigfuck

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The widening income inequality between individuals in both rich and poor countries has given rise to mass movements like Occupy Wall Street. In Davos 2012, OccupyWEF also made its presence felt. One of the key discussion topics at the World Economic Forum 2012 was addressing the issue of income inequality and one approach suggested was how to fix capitalism, a 20th century concept to be relevant in a 21st century world. Below is a summary of a BBC debate held in conjunction with WEF, Davos 2012.
http://www.weforum.org/sessions/summary/fixing-capitalism-0


The debate should not be on Capitalism but on fixing international multi-level marketing (fka pyramid schemes) businesses involving financial institutions, should be debated.
 

Fook Seng

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What ideas and quotes do I get out from listening to this debate?
1) There are at least 3 different models of capitalism - Anglo-saxon model which has failed, the social capitalism of EU which is in crisis and the state capitalism of China and Singapore which China has admitted is not sustainable.
2) Capitalism leads to income inequality. On the longer term sustainability, capitalism need to embrace social responsibility to avoid repercussion.
3) New paradigm - stakeholders instead of shareholders orientation
4) Capitalism is good. The problem is with the capitalists. The capitalists have hijacked capitalism from society.
5) Long term survival of an enterprise and social responsibility are mutually supportive.
 
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Fook Seng

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Bigfuck said:
The debate should not be on Capitalism but on fixing international multi-level marketing (fka pyramid schemes) businesses involving financial institutions, should be debated.

They did touched on the financial institutions making money before 2008 crisis and using public money to bail them out during the crisis and they are now at it again making their profits and bonuses. One thing that has emerged recently is the strong reaction of society to this unfairness. Occupy Wall Street is one example.
 

Fook Seng

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Bigfuck said:
The debate should not be on Capitalism but on fixing international multi-level marketing (fka pyramid schemes) businesses involving financial institutions, should be debated.

The Undersecretary of Finance of the US mentioned that the United States have introduced regulations to make financial derivatives more transparent.
 

Bigfuck

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They did touched on the financial institutions making money before 2008 crisis and using public money to bail them out during the crisis and they are now at it again making their profits and bonuses. One thing that has emerged recently is the strong reaction of society to this unfairness. Occupy Wall Street is one example.

This is the most critical point. Lehman Bros staff used to take the subway and have lunch boxes up till the late 1990s. It was this shit that started with borrowing from the future to enrich one's self and incessant gambling that is creating the mess globally. This is the only way for unproductive western economies to maintain a lavish lifestyle. Less blood than the Imperialist days of gold mining and slavery. But it ultimately screws up everyone's life. I want c an investment banker who borrows 1 year into the future to be responsible for one year, at least of any losses.
 

Simbian

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This is the most critical point. Lehman Bros staff used to take the subway and have lunch boxes up till the late 1990s. It was this shit that started with borrowing from the future to enrich one's self and incessant gambling that is creating the mess globally. This is the only way for unproductive western economies to maintain a lavish lifestyle. Less blood than the Imperialist days of gold mining and slavery. But it ultimately screws up everyone's life. I want c an investment banker who borrows 1 year into the future to be responsible for one year, at least of any losses.

Debt in the form of well understood loans was still acceptable. It only got out of control when the bankers took a math formula and ran amok with it for almost a decade. Many knew that the formula itself was koyok but continued to package junk as AAA stuff. You should remember by this time, the customer to them was just another counter-party.
 

Fook Seng

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Simbian said:
Debt in the form of well understood loans was still acceptable. It only got out of control when the bankers took a math formula and ran amok with it for almost a decade.

In fact in investment concept debt value of a business is part of the total value of the business together with its equity value. In the search for a more socially acceptable model of capitalism may I suggest to add a third component to this equation which is social value. The problem now starts: how do you quantify this?
 
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Bigfuck

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In fact in investment concept debt value of a business is part of the total value of the business together with its equity value. In the search for a more socially acceptable model of capitalism may I suggest to add a third component to this equation which is social value. The problem now starts: how do you quantify this?

There is one issue is how much and how far into the future can you borrow? I Bankers and the crooked FIs want to play with infinity as well as dumping shit out of their borders to make it someone else's problem. When it crashes a country, it is an international act of way through financial means. Social value can be quantified as you can create many indices around the puny limited life and function of a human. But that will sure put greed into a quick halt. I do not know what is this super fascination of accumulating so much wealth at the expense of others. You cannot bring it to your grave but you sure can cause misery to others living for generations to come. Social value can also come from what level of debt is allowable. Can one allow a person or entity to be in debt a few life times. Here is something to think about. If the banks set up a lottery draw where 10 winning tickets each is 1 trillion dollar loan over 10 years with an annual interest of 1%, what can you imagine if one of the winners decides to buy over the whole of Singapore, and someone sold it off like Xmas island? What can you imagine if another decides to spend 1 trillion for the biggest debauchery party for a year?
 

Fook Seng

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Bigfuck said:
There is one issue is how much and how far into the future can you borrow? I Bankers and the crooked FIs want to play with infinity as well as dumping shit out of their borders to make it someone else's problem. When it crashes a country, it is an international act of way through financial means. Social value can be quantified as you can create many indices around the puny limited life and function of a human. But that will sure put greed into a quick halt. I do not know what is this super fascination of accumulating so much wealth at the expense of others. You cannot bring it to your grave but you sure can cause misery to others living for generations to come. Social value can also come from what level of debt is allowable

I agree with you that having an indefinitely long investment horizon and target investment return on that is not a good KPI to measure the performance of the fund manager.

Just for illustration - during the Great Depression of the late 1920's/early 30's, the market dropped almost 90%. If you have invested $100 at the peak of the market in 1929(?), your investment would now be worth around $900k (price of a HDB 5-rm on the city fringe or a small condo in the outskirts?) after suffering a loss of 90% during the Great Depression.

On the other hand, if you had held back your investment and waited for the market to fall to its lowest, your investment would now be worth $9 million, enough to buy a fair size, non-Good Class bungalow.

The most important thing is that both investments would have given you a 11 to 12% annual rate of return with almost non-perceptible difference. One was a good investment, the other was shit.

Economics Nobel Prize Winner, Paul Krugman, once challenged the Singapore Govt on the need to have such a large reserve which he advised should be ploughed back into the economy to generate growth, very much like cash rich listed companies giving back to their shareholders cash either as dividends or even as capital. That is exactly the point that you raised.

To the question as to how to modify the system in order to create a fairer and more equitable income distribution, there are two angles that have to be looked at. One, which you have been emphasizing all along, is government policies and regulations.

The other is a change in the private sector way of rewarding its managers and setting performance targets and KPIs, which are now mainly short-term targets with no target for long term sustainability or social consideration. Below is a Youtube video of a BBC brainstorming session at Davos 2012 which illustrated exactly the issues mentioned here.

Regarding government policy, we have missed a good chance in the recent ministerial salary review to benchmark the salaries to a median income that would have set the KPI for the whole Cabinet as well as for Parliament to come out with policies that will address the income inequality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cXFLjL2ffo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 

Leongsam

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Bigfuck

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Just for illustration - during the Great Depression .......market dropped almost 90%. If you have invested $100 at the peak of the market ..... your investment would now be worth around $900k ...................loss of 90% during the Great Depression. On the other hand, if you had held back your investment and waited for the market to fall to its lowest, your investment would now be worth $9 million, enough to buy a fair size, non-Good Class bungalow. The most important thing is that both investments would have given you a 11 to 12% annual rate of return with almost non-perceptible difference. One was a good investment, the other was shit.
=> I take it that you mean one bought 1 share lot and the other bought 100 share lots where the law of averages makes the % not telling you much if that is all u know.

Economics Nobel Prize Winner, Paul Krugman, once challenged the Singapore Govt on the need to have such a large reserve which he advised should be ploughed back into the economy to generate growth, very much like cash rich listed companies giving back to their shareholders cash either as dividends or even as capital. That is exactly the point that you raised.
=> Singapore Government is effectively "REIT"zing the whole of Singapore with the land evaluation being assuring that the asset value floor will be maintained. With the notional value, we get our international ranking in terms of wealth and it allows the government to borrow happily. That is why Singaporeans have becoming asset rich and cash poor. My disgust is the way they fooled around with the CPF to make the REITs work. I do not mind being so called allowed to live in a house till I die, but the CPF which is now a de facto pension and asset locking traphole should be paying better pension payouts from 67 years onward. That is contingent that the government can ensure work for Singaporeans from 40-67. Our government and their 2nd rated scholars are only good at lazy solutions which do not address more serious issues. If you want to REITs Singapore, you better make sure the island is friendly to the elderly and young as well as less flood prone.

Regarding government policy, we have missed a good chance in the recent ministerial salary review to benchmark the salaries to a median income that would have set the KPI for the whole Cabinet as well as for Parliament to come out with policies that will address the income inequality.
=> This needs to be done and I said it a few times here. Together with this benchmarking, the bonus needs to be withheld for a few years with interest to let the policy to mature to exhibit the degree of effectiveness. Then the bonus accumulated is evaluated to see if it should disbursed fully or partially returned to the coffers. If you give bonus without much evaluation, you might as well make it the de facto salary. It would less insulting to me to see a minister work for a high salary than a minister getting 3 years of money for 1 year of salaried work.
Destructive investment banks that earn the most in the quickest time are actually bona fide swindlers. They borrow 1 million from you and promise you 25% returns which is actually your money paid back to you, find a crooked bank to pyramid it in terms other financial instruments, our fucker friend is actually sucking your 1 million into his own pocket directly while your poor 1 million becomes a super rubberized and leveraged dollar. Mind you 100K deposit can generate 1 million in deposits for the bank in theory and if some bank decides to do it. When the leverage goes out of hand, the bank has to become a swindler themselves and then it escalates to the governments who have their balls squeezed to issue government bonds or inflate the currency as a possible option. As we are playing with the exponential but humans live by the arithmetic series, the younger living and unborn generations get fucked big time like God hated them. Since governments, the politicians in particular who are elected by terms, they behave like destructive investment bankers by perpetuating the lie. The pension crisis in EU an USA is that by product which Paul Samuelson already said in the late 60s that the pension system in its current form is a Pyramid scheme. CPF was created by our brilliant UK former masters to not fall into this pension hell hole. But we are going back to the pension system again. The short-sight PAP by tying property with the CPF has now hit the quagmire of the stop gap as the cheaper new "subsidized property" is becoming so expensive that it has bankrupted new couples from retirement, given the current method of pension payouts of the CPF. Either the PAP decides to change CPF system or lower the price of properties which fucked when you REITS Singapore, you end up with shit waiting to happen when things choke up.

Tying the MP salaries with the median income is the right thing to do as it is a powerful shame factor and also improves Singapore's financial and government policy performance ranking in the world. Let's face it, the unwritten kick backs from privileged property purchases and share options will continue. These are the simpler ones and more elaborate ones are around which can be made more elaborate.
 

Fook Seng

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I was saying even if you buy one lot of $100 but held it for 80 years and you buy another lot but at a later time when the market has dropped 90%, your two investments would now be valued a totally different $900k vs $9 million. Yet on paper your average annual rate of return is quite similar 11 to 12 %. There is no need to dilute your loss with other investments. Using a long term rate of return as a performance measure can be very misleading.
 

Bigfuck

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I was saying even if you buy one lot of $100 but held it for 80 years and you buy another lot but at a later time when the market has dropped 90%, your two investments would now be valued a totally different $900k vs $9 million.
Ok. Clarified.
 

Fook Seng

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Leongsam said:
There is nothing wrong with capitalism. Just because the losers of society can't keep up with the winners is not a reason to change anything.

The losers simply need to learn to accept defeat graciously.

Your brand of Capitalism is evidently the Anglo-Saxon model which many have regarded as failed, including panel member of the forum, Professor N. Roubini of the Leonard N Stern School of Business at the NY University.
 

Leongsam

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Your brand of Capitalism is evidently the Anglo-Saxon model which many have regarded as failed, including panel member of the forum, Professor N. Roubini of the Leonard N Stern School of Business at the NY University.

It depends how you define "failure".

It is the natural order of things for a select few to have a lions share of everything while the grossly inferior starve to death. It was the way the law of natural selection was supposed to work. It eliminates the weak from the gene pool and ensures the continued survival and refinement of the species.

The problem with most societies today is that this process has been tinkered with and in some countries, it is grossly distorted. It many cases, a system has been created which is tantamount to losers extorting money from the winners with a promise to keep the peace only if they are sufficiently pacified with a portion of the nation's wealth that they do not deserve in the first place.
 

brocoli

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There is nothing wrong with capitalism. Just because the losers of society can't keep up with the winners is not a reason to change anything.

The losers simply need to learn to accept defeat graciously.
It depends how you define "failure".

It is the natural order of things for a select few to have a lions share of everything while the grossly inferior starve to death. It was the way the law of natural selection was supposed to work. It eliminates the weak from the gene pool and ensures the continued survival and refinement of the species.

The problem with most societies today is that this process has been tinkered with and in some countries, it is grossly distorted. It many cases, a system has been created which is tantamount to losers extorting money from the winners with a promise to keep the peace only if they are sufficiently pacified with a portion of the nation's wealth that they do not deserve in the first place.


Sam boss is obviously a WP or Socialist front mole trying to promote hare brain socialism by misrepresenting Capitalism


Capitalism is not a bout winner or loser... it is not bout letting peons starve to death... if peons starve to death, who is goin to do work ...?

Capitalism is the best economic system because it create something for every1.... !!! maximise effiencicy and allow fair allocation of resources...

the only system where peons starve to death is socialism... if you wan every1 to starve to death !! vote Chia Ti Lik and Ng Teck Xiong...

Ah Sam obviously dunno the virtues of capitalism... SIMI starve to death
 
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