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Dissension in S'pore Political Parties

One main advantage the PAP has in keeping dissenting voices in-house is due to its incumbency. With the large number of directorships in GLCs. NTUC, Think-tank organisations at its disposal, it is able to "reward" its members and keep him quiet. WP and the opposition parties have no such luxury. Couple with the fact that getting elected as MP on an opposition ticket is extremely difficult, those with weaker heart and passion may not stay for the long haul.

Not only that,but placing oneself as an opposition candidate against PAP actually is risking one's life and limbs (metaphorically lah).The very fact ex WP election candidates like Francis Seow and Tang Liang Hong who are now fugitives in foreign lands,having lost everything they owned and loved in the land they were born....seems standing for opposition as it's candidate is the most dangerous of jobs in Singapore.....and it's the very Silvia who begged Sanjeev despite his initial refusal!!!!!.

Even JBJ as WP secretary general was sued his pants off for a WP publication in Tamil which he could not understand a rats ass.And yet Sylvia poo pooed the cadre-ship for a minority race who stood as an election candidate as if her life was at stake?It's good enough for Sylvia that Sanjeev to have risked his and his family privacy wealth and his children education but not good enough for a mere recognition in the party?!!!!!!!!!!!!

This woman has no decency.
 
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These 2 are not the ones, there is whole bunch of irrelevant and hopelessly inadequate and under-qualified from previous generation and some holding CEC and key office bearer positions getting roundly thrashed during the last GE. I recall how they wanted their own SMCs.

The challenge for the Opposition in GE 2011 is that there are a huge pool of well qualified people who want to stand. There are however only a limited number so we are going to see a lot of open bickering and infighting. Given the success in PE 2011, the PAP will probably lower the bar so that it will be easier and cheaper to field teams. This is so as to encourage more multi-corner contests.
 
Why WP supporters want to detract from discussion on issues and focus on personal attacks?
Why you so lidat?

See honey?
Told you not to fuck around
One day you gonna get pregnant here and have difficulties tracing the owner of the sperms
Have you remove the sands inside?
 
Dear Perspective,

Honestly If you cannot manage the egos and expectations of second division minority players, and you expect by raising standards to recruit and manage Premiership League minority players ?

The issue is not a matter of CECship or not but rather Cadreship, and whether it should be awarded and in what manner.

If I could be more direct, the raising of the bar for cadreship and then membership is a matter of internal political control. If all roads lead to rome , then all roads lead to LTK and his desire to keep a tight leash on the party by keeping a limited no of cadres and in a more indirect way members.

How can u renew when people perceive that minority candidates are not worthy of cadreship let alone CEC ship ? In politics perception is everything , and the disaster that was Sanjeev could have been avoided by awarding a cadreship that is not even worth the price of the paper it was printed on.


Locke




I don't want to address the opinion points but the technical points, and it is good that someone other than the FVI had mentioned about why the rules for cadres shifted, so that I know I am responding to a more worthy cause.

I don't have the answers myself, but noticed that before/after 2006, there were a few veterans such as TBS, NAC, GSS etc. that was in line for renewal.

By 2011 period, we can see the renewal had more or less been achieved and the bar could be raised. Most of the CEC ran for election anyway and even if the 5 candidates (which TOC cited) had been raised to cadre, they may not get into the CEC. But do note that the non-cadres who were MPs/NCMPs became cadres (eg Chen, Pritam, Yee, Gerald etc.).

Hence, the bar was raised from candidates to MPs/NCMPs. For raising bars, I see it as natural for an organisation. It may not be "change of rules" or "lessons learnt from fast promotions", as what you and some had alleged.

The only thing I think can be considered is Scroobal's point that the WP should look at its cadre pool, determine the racial balance and take it into account during such appointments, never mind the quality. But I am not sure if that is already done and how many Malay/Indian non-CEC cadres there are that the public does not know of.
 
How can u renew when people perceive that minority candidates are not worthy of cadreship let alone CEC ship ? In politics perception is everything , and the disaster that was Sanjeev could have been avoided by awarding a cadreship that is not even worth the price of the paper it was printed on.
hahaha....if ltk/sl wants to play hardball.....and not be tactical/strategic.......blame who???
of course blame the hidden hands.....
 
Dissent in political parties is normal; if there's no dissent then I worry.

Human nature, pride, ego, self-interest, etc are all expected to take centre stage especially in a field like politics. There's no escaping that.

You name me one country in the developed world where majority of politicians are self-less, ego-less people who don't want any limelight or reward.

In Singapore opposition politics, it's even more so because there is no material reward and tons of potential backlash from the establishment, from friends and colleagues, the moment you enter politics. What keeps a person going? There has to be some element of recognition from the group and from the leadership. Otherwise where can a person find the energy to carry on if he feels he's being ostracized?

The caliber of candidates is improving but the estab still has a strong grip and has neutralized many potential fellows over the years. You can't blame the oppo for parachuting in candidates or for trying to field less ideal candidates.

Even PAP is scraping the bottom of the barrel despite its stranglehold on existing talent, what more opposition parties.

When the shit hits the fan as in the Sanjeev case, that is when the maturity of the electorate is being tested. Whether people can see what is important and what is not, and whether people can see past the superficial and question motives, agenda, etc.
 
Dear Score
Is the problem of sustaining enthusiasm post GE a problem with the people or a problem of leadership ? At this juncture would it be better to have 20 people each devoting 180% to the party or 200 people each devoting 50% ? Is a chinese communist style expectation even realistic for this day and age ?
Locke
[

Having led a team in my organisation before, I can safely tell that I believe in quality and not quantity. I prefer a strong team of 20 loyalists directly under me at the intiate stage of formation rather than having 200 half-hearted workers which do not add-value to my leadership.

If I wanted quantity, it will come later once I have groomed and established 20 die-hard followers. Each followers will recruit their own die-hard subordinates and that is how I increased the number down the road, MLM style.

As the company grow, every level directly under me will be raised to the next level (call it promotion or incentive rewards for their achievement). Thus it motivates those under me to help everyone move upward the laddle, collectively if they wanted equal promotion, ideally speaking.

In reality, that may not always be the case, there are bound to be someone among the 20 loyalist who performed better than the other. Such performance will depend on how he led his very own team - be it residents like him, whether he has clean records of not violating standard rules set, has he been very active promoting the company image among others.

It must be make known publicly to the 20 loyalist the importance of leadership renewal when times is riped - someone among the 20 must stand out to prove he is capable of leading, meritocracy comes into play if the one continue to display excellent performance. Such consensus is set at 2nd level of formations (after the first started by me) and path way for similar process in future.

As such, I wouldn't place too much concern about how many members were being subsequently recruited by my 20 loyalists. I don't want to appear like I was micro-managing their leadership style and trusted them to do whatever it takes to lift the organisation forward as long as everyone observe the organisation discipline or face consequences for their behaviour. When discipline is metted out, nobody should cry personal when due process is taken against him, in serous case he may face serious charges. That I called maturity and democracy process.

As in WP case, PLG is acting on his own that break the rules regardless if he meant well. Yaw was disciplinary dealt for not forthcoming to the party even if he did no wrong. As for Sajeev, I doubt LTK should micro-manage this matter. People at his level crying foul is a waste of public time. If he can't control his own grief, he cannot manage the residents grief.

Was there internal riff in WP as what Khaw wanted us to believe? I would say NO based on the above organisation formation. No one is indispensible and the organisation will not collapse just because someone leave or get punished. There must be constant renewal until everyone has reached maturity to agree with the 2nd formations (leading to eventual leadership renewal).

As for PAP, looking calm doesn't mean there is no current under the sea. In fact I sensed the riff is even deeper and broader inside PAP. There was no democracy and LHL trusted no one, unity is a show. Every of its members are bought by paying them obscenely. There was no disciplinary actons when someone made mistake, everyone was told to wear a mask to avoid backlash from the public. Meritocracy is how good you idolise "one god" and not how best your performed. Adding insult to injury, such mentality penetrated into the lower rank, the grassroots namely PA, CCC, RC. Everyone serve if there is self benefit to reap. They cover each other when rules are broken at the expense of the people. Todate, finding a leaders under such formations remained a challenge, nobody trusted each other even though they were "yes-men" all along. As a result, their policies all gone wrong and Singaporeans paid a huge price for such mediocre existence. I, wouldn't want to work in this kind of jittery environment and Singaporeans should not place too much hope on such leadership style.

As such, I am glad LTK did not chose PAP footstep. I viewed WP development in very positive light even though there are external force wanting to destroy them, mostly for self-centred reason.
 
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SPLIT!

No that wasn't my pants. I actually think people need to relearn to define what a split means.

Split means you have 6 out of 14 (or 16 in WP case) CEC members, 25% of cadres and ordinary membership dissenting.

Eric is 1 out of 16 and Fazli/Sajeev are 2 out of anothers few hundreds. Yaw was expelled and still supports WP, so no count.

The 2006-08 departures of GMS, CTL, JG, LWL and Salim looked more like a split as they were in CEC, but even then they left at different times and different parties and only 2 cadres followed suit.

I would call them by a similar label - splinters. Not split.
 
Dear Myfoot,

In any sales organization, the issue of performance as an individual is clear. In a political organization , and or party, the issue of performance is less so. Would you object as to the manner in which your top sales performers exceeds his target ? If you define performance by loyalty and with freedom of action constrained along with recognition of past actions, you are in effect limiting the quality you seek to attract. A sales organization reflective of what I described would expect performance and unquestioning loyalty to a dominant leader.


Locke




Having led a team in my organisation before, I can safely tell that I believe in quality and not quantity. I prefer a strong team of 20 loyalists directly under me at the intiate stage of formation rather than having 200 half-hearted workers which do not add-value to my leadership.

If I wanted quantity, it will come later once I have groomed and established 20 die-hard followers. Each followers will recruit their own die-hard subordinates and that is how I increased the number down the road, MLM style.

As the company grow, every level directly under me will be raised to the next level (call it promotion or incentive rewards for their achievement). Thus it motivates those under me to help everyone move upward the laddle, collectively if they wanted equal promotion, ideally speaking.

In reality, that may not always be the case, there are bound to be someone among the 20 loyalist who performed better than the other. Such performance will depend on how he led his very own team - be it residents like him, whether he has clean records of not violating standard rules set, has he been very active promoting the company image among others.

It must be make known publicly to the 20 loyalist the importance of leadership renewal when times is riped - someone among the 20 must stand out to prove he is capable of leading, meritocracy comes into play if the one continue to display excellent performance. Such consensus is set at 2nd level of formations (after the first started by me) and path way for similar process in future.

As such, I wouldn't place too much concern about how many members were being subsequently recruited by my 20 loyalists. I don't want to appear like I was micro-managing their leadership style and trusted them to do whatever it takes to lift the organisation forward as long as everyone observe the organisation discipline or face consequences for their behaviour. When discipline is metted out, nobody should cry personal when due process is taken against him, in serous case he may face serious charges. That I called maturity and democracy process.

As in WP case, PLG is acting on his own that break the rules regardless if he meant well. Yaw was disciplinary dealt for not forthcoming to the party even if he did no wrong. As for Sajeev, I doubt LTK should micro-manage this matter. People at his level crying foul is a waste of public time. If he can't control his own grief, he cannot manage the residents grief.

Was there internal riff in WP as what Khaw wanted us to believe? I would say NO based on the above organisation formation. No one is indispensible and the organisation will not collapse just because someone leave or get punished. There must be constant renewal until everyone has reached maturity to agree with the 2nd formations (leading to eventual leadership renewal).

As for PAP, looking calm doesn't mean there is no current under the sea. In fact I sensed the riff is even deeper and broader inside PAP. There was no democracy and LHL trusted no one, unity is a show. Every of its members are bought by paying them obscenely. There was no disciplinary actons when someone made mistake, everyone was told to wear a mask to avoid backlash from the public. Meritocracy is how good you idolise "one god" and not how best your performed. Adding insult to injury, such mentality penetrated into the lower rank, the grassroots namely PA, CCC, RC. Everyone serve if there is self benefit to reap. They cover each other when rules are broken at the expense of the people. Todate, finding a leaders under such formations remained a challenge, nobody trusted each other even though they were "yes-men" all along. As a result, their policies all gone wrong and Singaporeans paid a huge price for such mediocre existence. I, wouldn't want to work in this kind of jittery environment and Singaporeans should not place too much hope on such leadership style.

As such, I am glad LTK did not chose PAP footstep. I viewed WP development in very positive light even though there are external force wanting to destroy them, mostly for self-centred reason.
 
Contrary to what you just said, LTK has shown himself to be inept leader that does not understand the psychology of its members. Thats why we are seeing all these embarrassing episodes from even among its leaders.
WP need sto change and LTK needs to move on and allow other more capable people to take over leadership.

LOL embarrassing episodes??
PAP got more embarrassing episodes.....just that all cover up with simple resignation....as expulsion seems to show LHL that not a good leader.
example 1 : Yeo chow tong case till now PAP have not explain what happens.....
example 2 : not to forget DC uncle CWK on corruption case now and previously cheating case

this 2 guys just resigns abruptly from PAP......because of embarrassing episode.
 
IF Kinana you are so good in managing people in politics ,

then go and either join WP or set up your party. Don't just empty talk here.

Prove to us.
 
One main advantage the PAP has in keeping dissenting voices in-house is due to its incumbency. With the large number of directorships in GLCs. NTUC, Think-tank organisations at its disposal, it is able to "reward" its members and keep him quiet. WP and the opposition parties have no such luxury. Couple with the fact that getting elected as MP on an opposition ticket is extremely difficult, those with weaker heart and passion may not stay for the long haul.

That's right. Another factor - LKY. Don't recall any of his PAP chaps having the courage to stand-up and challenge him. Toh Chin Chye is just one of the very few to have done that. His dissenters rather kpkb behind the scene coz they know if they go public, the entire govt machinery will be on them. IRAS is very useful as a deterrent.
 
Why WP supporters want to detract from discussion on issues and focus on personal attacks?
Why you so lidat?
Dear all,

No need waste time on this kanina....
Just reply him by standing on his parents bones....
Heshe got no balls to response...
A little crude but heshe deserves it....
 
Dear Myfoot,

In a political organization , and or party, the issue of performance is less so. Would you object as to the manner in which your top sales performers exceeds his target ?

I will not object the manner used by my sales guy if it is through legitimate mean to achieve his target

Put it in WP scenario - Png was appointed to stand for election in Hougang, he can employ all legitimate manner to win the residents votes with his performance. However, Poh tried to steal Png's clients trying to prove he can perform even better. That is not the right manner to prove ones capability or loyalty. If I see one of my subordinates having such habbit, he will confuse the clients and posed danger to the organisation image. As much as I encouraged freedom of action, my subordinate must exercise his unilateral action with caution instead of being seen by others as power struggle. It makes keeping him a challenge regardless of his KPI or loyalty. Sales is important but the manner in achieving it must not be overlooked. Look at PAP, trying to achieve GDP at all cost but the manner of doing it has all gone haywire resulted in its own demise - sooner or later.
Locke[/QUOTE]
 
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Having led a team in my organisation before,

As in WP case, PLG is acting on his own that break the rules regardless if he meant well. Yaw was disciplinary dealt for not forthcoming to the party even if he did no wrong. As for Sajeev, I doubt LTK should micro-manage this matter.People at his level crying foul is a waste of public time. If he can't control his own grief, he cannot manage the residents grief.

Frankly pal,you don't even know what a 1st year student in Management ought to know.May I suggest you read about management doctrine of hierarchy first....than proceed to a chapter on 'motivation' .This will suffice for now.Since all that you wrote in so many words amounedt to mere nothings.

I have been ata staff level of management (not linear lever hor) of organizations of 400 to 2000 people---at least 98% of whose faces I never see or need arises.But things are not so simple as you described.Because as any 1st year student in management should know the complexities of human relations gets increasingly complex with the number of people. The algorithms is almost like your TOTO or 4D....just 4 numbers among 10 but the the permutations runs to gigantic.

Let me simply for you.Assume your organization is SAF.You are the chief of staff ,in war with Malaysia.You have tasked xxx Sanjeev to hold the northern front.Tell me,should Sanjeev at least be a BG or a corporal ?

btw: i don't even want to raise how you promote people now.since if we go by your logic,most CEO must come from the organization within.
 
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Dear My

Sales is important but the manner must not be overlooked ? What sort of insecure manager are u ? The only issue is sales sales sales, how he or she does is it irrelevant, whether she is loyal, or half loyal or an ass kisser, whether he sucks cock, fucks pussy, fucks assholes or is fucked in the asshole I would not care. Top sales people are egoist, recognizing and managing a team of top performers is an exercise in ego management, managing a team of mediocre sheep is an exercise in futility.

Poh was someone who proved to be loyal first and an incompetent idiot next. His desire was to be loyal and to be given hougang , his ego and competence was not up to the job as seen by his terrible attempts at backstabbing.


Locke



QUOTE=myfoot123;1077613]I will not object the manner used by my sales guy if it is through legitimate mean to achieve his target

Put it in WP scenario - Png was appointed to stand for election in Hougang, he can employ all legitimate manner to win the residents votes with his performance. However, Poh tried to steal Png's clients trying to prove he can perform even better. That is not the right manner to prove ones capability or loyalty. If I see one of my subordinates having such habbit, he will confuse the clients and posed danger to the organisation image. As much as I encouraged freedom of action, my subordinate must exercise his unilateral action with caution instead of being seen by others as power struggle. It makes keeping him a challenge regardless of his KPI or loyalty. Sales is important but the manner in achieving it must not be overlooked. Look at PAP, trying to achieve GDP at all cost but the manner of doing it has all gone haywire resulted in its own demise - sooner or later.
Locke[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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Frankly pal,you don't even know what a 1st year student in .Assume your organization is SAF.You are the chief of staff ,in war with Malaysia.You have tasked xxx Sanjeev to hold the northern front.Tell me,should Sanjeev at least be a BG or a corporal ?
.

None, he will be busy with his personal committment and rendered himself inactive for war. Luckily he was not send alone but with another group of generals in the case of last election. That is why he can't even get his cadre title. As to why he was the chosen one for GRC, that is the unfair war game set by PAP, not WP. Even Marine Parade also have a dummy with kate spade.

Now, give me another good example who I should send to the northern front please.:D
 
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None, he will be busy with his personal committment and rendered himself inactive for war. Luckily he was not send alone but with another group of generals in the case of last election. That is why he can't even get his cadre title. As to why he was the chosen one for GRC, that is the unfair war game set by PAP, not WP. Even Marine Parade also have a dummy with kate spade.

Now, give me another good example who I should send to the northern front please.:D

You are just being evasive.

But at least now I know I can only send you as a war fodder and never a leader.:D
 
Dear My

The only issue is sales sales sales, how he or she does is it irrelevant, whether she is loyal, or half loyal or an ass kisser, whether he, fucks pussy, fucks assholes or is fucked in the asshole I would not care.Locke


Are we talking about politics here? Oh, I forgot, you are insurance agent with Saw Phiak Hua's mentality?
 
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