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Dead soldier issue - 4th installation of BS

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Security forces need protection from civil suits: Eng Hen

While there are countries which no longer give their police and soldiers protection from civil suits, many have come to regret the decision.

And a similar move here could leave Singapore with a security force constantly second-guessing itself, reducing its effectiveness.

This was the response from Defence Minister Ng Eng Hen to Parliament yesterday after Non-Constituency MP Dennis Tan suggested weakening Section 14 of the Government Proceedings Act (GPA).

The provision was inherited from the British and holds that a member of the armed forces, and the police, who causes death or injury to another member of the security forces while on duty, cannot be sued for negligence.

It was this provision which two army officers and the Singapore Armed Forces relied on when sued by the family of a full-time national serviceman who died in 2012 after an allergic reaction to smoke grenades during a military exercise.

The High Court dismissed the suit, and many members of the public questioned the fairness of Section 14 of the GPA.

But Dr Ng explained the need for the provision which lets officers respond to threats effectively instead of wondering whether their actions could lead to them being sued.

Citing a hypothetical example of servicemen being tasked to patrol Jurong Island and spotting a significant threat, Dr Ng said: "Do they stop the person, or will they hold back, thinking, 'If I make the wrong decision, then I'm on my own?'

"A civil suit is not a trivial matter."

Mr Tan said the provision might lead to a moral hazard in which officers might be less inclined to take precautions, thinking they are protected by the GPA.

But Dr Ng replied that the Act actually reduces moral hazard, since it gives immunity only in less serious cases. If servicemen commit rash acts, they are not protected.

They can be prosecuted in the criminal courts and end up in jail, said Dr Ng.

Mr Tan also suggested that the GPA apply only during actual operations and be waived during training.

But Dr Ng said that training must be realistic for it to be effective. Singapore's armed forces cannot be expected to train at one pace and be expected to ramp up their capabilities in real operations.

"There is a saying, 'When you don't train and sweat, you will spill blood in real operations'," he said.

He added: "Can you get a level of proficiency if servicemen think they are not protected during training?"

Dr Ng did invite Mr Tan to table a motion for the House to debate an amendment to the GPA if he felt strongly about it. "Do you want to give our security forces the confidence that when they do their job, and when they do it without recklessness or negligence, that the Government Proceedings Act protects them?" he asked.

Referring to the case of Private Dominique Sarron Lee, who died after being exposed to zinc chloride in the smoke grenades, Dr Ng said: "I looked at the facts very carefully. I think we have done right by everyone. We're of course sad, but I think we still need to do what is right for the entire system."
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Now, the defence minister is trying to divert the issue from strictly a MINDEF one to include the SPF.

The question has still not been answered ...why should sinkee soldiers want to fight for the country when MINDEF does not commit to their safety?
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Dr Ng did invite Mr Tan to table a motion for the House to debate an amendment to the GPA if he felt strongly about it. "Do you want to give our security forces the confidence that when they do their job, and when they do it without recklessness or negligence, that the Government Proceedings Act protects them?" he asked.

Are the WP MPs going to take up that challenge?
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Dr Ng asked "Do you want to give our security forces the confidence that when they do their job, and when they do it without recklessness or negligence, that the Government Proceedings Act protects them?"

The question sinkee soldiers should ask the minister is "Do you want to fight for sinkapore when MINDEF has no legal obligation to your safety and well-being?"

This protection is for top echelons, not for the people who actually do the work. Soldiers take orders. When those who issue the orders make the mistake, this law protects them.

Don't believe the bs from this incompetent minister. He can't even get his story right.
 
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winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
This is from a minister whose wife is the CEO of a hospital group responsible for a serious outbreak that led to 28 deaths and the matter was cover up for a long time.

This minister is incompetent. Fire him.
 

jw5

Moderator
Moderator
Loyal
Are the WP MPs going to take up that challenge?

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe they draft and redraft the motion 50 times, by that time, too late already. :wink:

The point is that if not for WP elected MPs or NCMPs to raise this kind of issues, the ministars would be spending their time in parliament talking about the milestones they achieved. :biggrin:
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
A soldier died because of negligence, the parents contend.

Because of this law, the parents' suit was dismissed.

What does MINDEF have to hide? If MINDEF is so sure of its decision in not prosecuting the two officers and that it did no wrong in the death of the soldier, why does it not fight the lawsuit based on evidence? Why does it choose to use the law to avoid the lawsuit?

Our soldiers should stage a boycott until MINDEF is legally obligated to the safety of our soliders.
 

GoldenDragon

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Now, the defence minister is trying to divert the issue from strictly a MINDEF one to include the SPF.

The question has still not been answered ...why should sinkee soldiers want to fight for the country when MINDEF does not commit to their safety?


if rash acts committed, they are not protected. bargain said that. i wonder what qualifies as rash act then. imo, once SOP on safety procedures are breached intentionally, a rash act would have taken place, regardless of outcome.
 

eatshitndie

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
nothing beats the news out of phoenix where the convicted mass murderer loughner is suing the former congress woman whom he shot and nearly killed by blowing her head off for us$12m for emotional distress and sleeplessness as a result of her surviving his assassination attempt. he killed a bunch of others in the same rampage. certain lawsuits need to be curtailed.
 

PTADER

Alfrescian
Loyal
Security forces need protection from civil suits: Eng Hen

"Do you want to give our security forces the confidence that when they do their job, and when they do it without recklessness or negligence, that the Government Proceedings Act protects them?" he asked"

Ng Eng Hen is in an "act blur" mode about what he himself told Parliament on 14 November 2012.

"The COI opined that “if the TSR had been complied with, PTE Lee and his platoon mates would not have been subjected to smoke that was as dense as that during the incident, and for as long as they were during the incident” and that “reduced exposure to smoke would have reduced the risks of any adverse reactions to the smoke.” The COI concluded that “the cause of death of PTE Lee resulted from inhalation of the fumes from the smoke grenades used in the incident”.

The COI is of the opinion that the actions of the Platoon Commander, a Regular Captain, were negligent as he was aware of the specific TSR but did not comply with it."


Referring to the case of Private Dominique Sarron Lee, who died after being exposed to zinc chloride in the smoke grenades, Dr Ng said: "I looked at the facts very carefully."

No need for him took at the facts "very carefully". He just needs to revisit his own 2012 Ministerial statement.

It is becoming increasingly apparent that this chap is not covering up for those two or for anyone in MINDEF (which I thought was a distinct possibility initially), but for himself. Judging from all that he has said thus far, he must have been the culprit who perverted the course of justice. He should be investigated by CPIB.
 

tonychat

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
Sinkie saf is such a fucked up organisation.. Can get a soldier killed without even going for a war..
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
This is from a minister whose wife is the CEO of a hospital group responsible for a serious outbreak that led to 28 deaths and the matter was cover up for a long time.

This minister is incompetent. Fire him.

ng eng hen is not incompetent,he is just beyond evil,a sadistic facist clown ultra right wing conservative nutjob.the only person that could possibly surpass him is evil dick cheney.if theres anyone that would fit the portrait of delusions of grandiosity,justification for cruelty,war and violence,hostile,sadistic and complete lack of compassion or empathy for humanity and supreme love for himself......Malignant narcissism is a psychological syndrome comprising an extreme mix of narcissism, antisocial personality disorder, aggression, and sadism.
 
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frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
u telling me a organisation as powerful as the SAF cannot defend themselves or their employees in a court of law?that they need a set of laws that grant them complete immunity from any consequences or repercussions whatsoever?if it comes to that point where they cant defend the indefensible it means they got something to hide doesnt it?

who the fuck do they think they are?that no one or nobody in the world can retaliate and seek vengence for their grievances?if people decide to form up a terrorist group and fight against SAF what are they going to do?
 

ahsoo

Alfrescian
Loyal
This is from a minister whose wife is the CEO of a hospital group responsible for a serious outbreak that led to 28 deaths and the matter was cover up for a long time.

This minister is incompetent. Fire him.

This minister is also the nephew of Ng Teng Fong of Far East Organization. Lots of money is at stake.
 

enterprise2

Alfrescian
Loyal
if rash acts committed, they are not protected. bargain said that. i wonder what qualifies as rash act then. imo, once SOP on safety procedures are breached intentionally, a rash act would have taken place, regardless of outcome.

What they r saying is ..,it's up to them if they choose to go further and not up to u. Trust us!! Us lower mortals with our small simple minds cannot comprehend their level of thinking!
 

frenchbriefs

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
What they r saying is ..,it's up to them if they choose to go further and not up to u. Trust us!! Us lower mortals with our small simple minds cannot comprehend their level of thinking!

hes like the general from the movie "you cant handle the truth" using war,national security and the ends to justify the means and everything,it doesnt matter if they bomb some buildings and kill some innocent civilians or shoot down a boeing 747 carrying hundreds of civilian passengers or order a code red and kill a couple of trainee soldiers in the process,human lives are meaningless.all in the name of national security and the umbrella of protection u sleep under,it justifies any crime or mistake they commit.
 
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