Confirm SAF is ROTTON, corroded valves downed Apach & broke tail

[moolightaffairs]

All metal oxidize , even stainless steel for example turn dull after a while. Common misconception people have about metallugry.

In the air there is impurities, when it rain the moisture also contain levels of salt. I wonder if it is because this bird was in Asian Aerospace 2010 that ingested too much moisture from the sea compare to the rest.

yes! this is what im going to explain to yoshi! heat will speed up the process of rusting.

 

[rofthelper]

4) If you believe that what Teo says is true, how is the anti-ice bleed valve related to the engine failue? Does it control any of the fuel system such that it can shut down the engines? No, I don't think so. If it did, what are the odds that it will happen to 2 engines at the same time? The helo was designed to fly back to base on one engine. I had orignally thought it was an engine gearbox/tranmission problem. But not according to Teo. Whether the anti-ice bleed valve works or not ,it should not have any impact on the function of the helo in S'pore. If the anti-ice valve does not work in the middle of a flight in the middle of winter in ALaska, than that is a different thing.

Bro Papsmearer, think this Teo guy bullshit his way out. Failure due to anti-ice bleed valve? If it is due to engine bleed valve or engine air cut-off valve, maybe still can buy his story. But the two components are being replaced regularly by reaching a certain engine hour. So component failure is quite rare.

Even both anti-icing valves failed at the same time, the failure massage should have picked up by EICAS. Once the bird made her clash landing, the chief engineer would have removed the recorder flight data and monitor any abnormality before the clash.

 

[Papsmearer]

Bro Papsmearer, think this Teo guy bullshit his way out. Failure due to anti-ice bleed valve? If it is due to engine bleed valve or engine air cut-off valve, maybe still can buy his story. But the two components are being replaced regularly by reaching a certain engine hour. So component failure is quite rare.

Even both anti-icing valves failed at the same time, the failure massage should have picked up by EICAS. Once the bird made her clash landing, the chief engineer would have removed the recorder flight data and monitor any abnormality before the clash.

U are quite right rofthelper. I can bet u that these 2 engines do not have the same hours on them. I am sure one or more are not the original engine, and not from the same batch. For 2 engines, with different hours between service on them, to encounter the same problem, u have better chance to buy 4D. I can tell u even if the anti-icing failure light come on (I don't even know if there is such a check light for this item), most pilots will continue to fly the bird, simply because the anti-icing is not needed nor use here. Like I said, if you are flying in the middle of an Alaskan winter, and the anti-icing system does not work, yes, u are in trouble.

 

[Papsmearer]

unless the maintenance was outsourced to ST Aerospace liao...and they fucked up the maintenance.

Don't forget this was a check flight. They had actually done some maintenance work on the helo before, and was taking it up for a check flight when it crash landed. I suspect that it was something so stupid like not enough fuel, contaminated fuel, etc. But they don't dare to say, so Teo is doing cover up with this cock bullshit anti-icing problem.

 

[Papsmearer]

Dear PAP

A quick google on the nomeclature has turned up the following. Official Description of the Anti Icing system and a picture of the valve in question from the manufacturer.

http://www.tpub.com/content/ahapache/TM-1-1520-238-T-4/css/TM-1-1520-238-T-4_108.htm

http://www.vacco.com/vacco/defense/aircraft/aircraftproducts.html

1. Its possible that the corrosion was internal thus escaping a visual look.

2. PAP is wrong in that the Anti Ice thingy would not be used in Arizona, the Desert can and does get pretty cold whether in the morning or at night in certain times of the year.


3. The corrosion is inexplicable and for something to happen at the same time to both engines its like a one in a million occurrence.

4. Engines are still undergoing tear down and testing. The full story will emerge more fully in the weeks to come and I suspect it will become more complicated much like the Boeing 777 fuel feed, heat exchanger issue.




Locke

I think u are missing the point. I know that Vacco is the maker, and they will tell u that is impossible for their valve to be corroded. And they may be right, because according to teo, this is a first time incident.

However, I consulted the GE T700 maintenance manual and under chapter 7.15, the anti-icing is diagram, illustrated, and explained. I am just failing to see how it effected a shut down of the engine. There is no connection from the anti-icing system to the fuel system, or other systems that are directly connected to flight. Its possible that it was corroded and it was overlooked simply because its a device that is not used by the pilots, and will probably never ever be used in S'pore. Maybe the maintenace crew knew that it was neevr used, and henced never bothered to examine it. Hence it could have corroded without them knowing.

But Lets say for example that the failure of this part can cause an engine shut down in mid air. Now, the real point is this. ask yourself what are the probability that the same anti-icing valve will fail on both engines at the same time. Each engine has its own anti-icing start bleed valve. They are not shared. I am sure that each engine was build in a different batch with different hours on it. This bird is designed to fly back to base on one engine. If you agree that the odds of this happening is astronomical, than Teo's reason is bullshit.

 

[lockeliberal]

Dear PAP

I do agree with your point that the chances of the same part failing on two seperate engines at the same time on the same helicopter are so high as to be astronomical and near impossible.

I would like to add that the immediate cause might be known taking TCH's statement at face value but the underlying causes might take months. For example the investigation and subsequent replacement for the exchangers on Trent engines after the BA incident at Heathrow took quite a fair bit of time.

Its probably a bit more complex and we will have to wait for the strip down and analysis to bear more fruit. Its being done by GE and I am sure the RSAF would want them to pay the repair bill so eventually something will leak in the trade press

TCH's explanation about the ABIV etc controlling the vents and airflow makes some sense, in a manner of fact in that the vents would have to move in or order to dislodge the ice even as it is heated up to loosen it.






Locke

 

[Papsmearer]

Dear PAP

I do agree with your point that the chances of the same part failing on two seperate engines at the same time on the same helicopter are so high as to be astronomical and near impossible.

I would like to add that the immediate cause might be known taking TCH's statement at face value but the underlying causes might take months. For example the investigation and subsequent replacement for the exchangers on Trent engines after the BA incident at Heathrow took quite a fair bit of time.

Its probably a bit more complex and we will have to wait for the strip down and analysis to bear more fruit. Its being done by GE and I am sure the RSAF would want them to pay the repair bill so eventually something will leak in the trade press

TCH's explanation about the ABIV etc controlling the vents and airflow makes some sense, in a manner of fact in that the vents would have to move in or order to dislodge the ice even as it is heated up to loosen it.






Locke

The unit does notcontrol any vents nor does it impact any airflow. So, Teo's explanation is still bs.

 

[mortarmafia]

WHY?

Why EVERY TIME when PAP have a great embarrassing fuck up it is a VALVE?

When they tried to dig their own way out of deep shit the last time in 2004's Islandwide power failure they blamed the fuel valve in Jurong Island which failed and cut off natural gas supply to our power stations.

Now Apache fucked up it some stupid fuel valve again?

KNN CCB!

They will NEVER NEVER OWN UP and take any fucking responsibility!

Always try to blame some mechanical parts?

Why we don't pay million dollars to these mechanical parts and to these useless ministers instead? :oIo:

The other CB things they tried to blame included the wheel which broke down Bukit Panjang LRT for months. SDP better remember to fuck them on this CB hole during GE @ Bukit Panjang.

 

[boring]

secali the maintance section had outsourced to private company liao, any bro in saf techni dept can carify???

 

[silliporean]

I thought most of the components are made of either high grade stainless steel, high tech metal alloys or titanium? How to corrode from atmospheric air?

 

[Papsmearer]

I thought most of the components are made of either high grade stainless steel, high tech metal alloys or titanium? How to corrode from atmospheric air?

Yes, they are, and no other operator has experienced this problem. Teo says we are the first, Uniquely Singapore!

 

[flkyflky]

Yes, they are, and no other operator has experienced this problem. Teo says we are the first, Uniquely Singapore!

So PAP is either always lying or always Ass Luck? Which is the one?

 

[breakingfree]

Quite true, singveld.

Some of my regular friends who were posted to Peace Vanguard (Apache helicopter detachment) & Peace Prairie (CH-47 Chinook helicopter detachment) didn't really get to save their allowances, and some even dip deeper into their monthly salary and even borrow $$$ from those single regulars.

Their cars must be 2L and above, preferable japanese or european models. Those who brought their spouse along, spend $$$ as if they are WAGs, buying luxuries goods and stuff for the kids, men visiting strip bars spending USD 200-300, gambling in LV during weekends.

You will be shocked to see some of these guys' living apartments, some even bigger and classier than their detachment CO, DY CO or S3.

Bro, just trying to offer some alternate view. 2l car are the NORM in USA. U hardly can find any 1.6l car and most of the time 1.6l car are used by housewifes for groceries shopping. And Jap models have better resale values compare to USA brand like chevy which drop like stone.

The living apartments. Well the apartments are rented and reimbursed by RSAF depending on the guys rank. A higher rank means higher rental reimbursement. Your abv statement only means that the CO etc is lazy to find a better rental deal and just takeover from the departing CO.

I think most Sporeans will not resist the lure of buying goods in factory outlets that offers 40-50% discount for brands like polo ralph, bose, etc, would u?

Anyway, anti-ice start bleed valve should not be the deciding factor that resulted in the crash. It is at most a side finding.

 

[xebay11]

Manufacturer defect, PAP dare not point finger at Ang Mo, in US this would be law suit already and all products recalled. WTF and we are fighting among ourselves.

 

[Ass_Loong_Son]

Manufacturer defect, PAP dare not point finger at Ang Mo, in US this would be law suit already and all products recalled. WTF and we are fighting among ourselves.

Sad bloody fucking fact is PAP is alike SPG that can not help themselves from sucking Ang Moh ASS & DICK NON-STOP.:oIo:

 

[Papsmearer]

Manufacturer defect, PAP dare not point finger at Ang Mo, in US this would be law suit already and all products recalled. WTF and we are fighting among ourselves.

This is a good point, they would be grounding the entire Apache fleet all around the world if its a problem with this.

 

[scroobal]

This is a phenomenon that I find across Singapore civil service and GLCs. In the early years, senior staff have been encouraged to live and spend in a frugal manner. The same encouragement however never did take place for the junior ranks.

Its quite sad to see junior ranks and their families blowing their salaries and allowances with some exceptions.

It is a also a well talked about phenomenon in the civil service. Just look at the carpark, the junior staff tend to have more expensive cars than senior staff and they change it often as well.

Maybe I should explain "encouragement". It is quite common practice to call up a senior staff and tell him or her that she is living beyond her means. There was case of OMS scholar whose wife could not control herself and he could not control her so he got posted outside the civil service to a GLC.

That is the reason why the base CO is renting that kind of accommodation. If you check, it will be very close to the rental allowance.

The living apartments. Well the apartments are rented and reimbursed by RSAF depending on the guys rank. A higher rank means higher rental reimbursement. Your abv statement only means that the CO etc is lazy to find a better rental deal and just takeover from the departing CO.