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China Has $1.5 Trillion 'Hidden' Debt'.

Dreamer1

Alfrescian
Loyal
Yes, I know,..by 2050, there maybe a world currency...
I deliberately avoided mentioning that in my last post to avoid making the
reply post too long and lose focus.

Now..about this 2050 global currency..even you have qualified your statement..

1...If things work out well.
2. There might be currency union
3. that would be world currency.

So, all the above pre conditions may have nothing to do with economics, GDP and economic growth..or is it ?.
Probably it has more to do with geo-politics, convergence of nations with common political ideologies into groups ( The western powers and Japan ( G7 ) are already on this platform - sharing open democratic government value systems. And a lot of other factors..which have nothing to do with ECONOMICS.

Then who are these financial forecasters and wonder kids, earning millions of dollars in bonus and salary who write such prediction reports ?. What is their merit, knowledge and standing vis a vis such matters ?

What qualifies them to write such reports and to be admired or taken
seriously by the rest of the pack / herd and the media and the public ?
.
I believe that economy is the only deciding factor.

The world today all practise some kind of capitalism,with two exceptions,Cuba next to USA and N.Korea,next to China.Since the collapse of Berlin wall,the free world as we knew then,was suddenly injected with more than 5 billions consumers,bigger market and increase competition.

Global corporations have been riding this boom.

People would have less time to think about politics,as survival becomes the top priority.

The world will then be guided by unseen hand,this hand will lead to the ultimate system that the world has to live with rather than the world has chosen.

My humble opinion.
 

Dreamer1

Alfrescian
Loyal
Went to a talk given at NTU yesterday regarding rise of China.

The speaker a professor from JFK school of public policy is very confident that Chinese economic growth will not be indefinite. A slow down might possibly trigger unrest.
Here is a very fair comment by a Harvard Don

Rogoff Says China Crisis May Trigger Regional Slump (Update1)
February 24, 2010, 12:23 AM EST
More From Businessweek
China Asset Bubble Concerns ‘Overdone,’ Baring Asset Says
Harvard’s Rogoff Gives Legs to China Crash Talk: William Pesek
Rogoff Says ‘Horrible’ China Crisis May Trigger Regional Slump
China’s Hidden Debt Risks 2012 Crisis, Northwestern’s Shih Says
Mexico Peso Drops Most in Year on Greek Debt Crisis (Correct)
Story Tools
e-mail this story print this story 0diggsdiggadd to Business Exchange (Adds example of social unrest in the 10th paragraph.)



By Aki Ito and Patrick Rial

Feb. 24 (Bloomberg) -- China’s economic growth will plunge to as low as 2 percent following the collapse of a “debt- fueled bubble” within 10 years, sparking a regional recession, according to Harvard University Professor Kenneth Rogoff.

“You’re not going to go a decade without having a bump in the business cycle,” Rogoff, former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund, said in an interview in Tokyo yesterday. “We would learn just how important China is when that happens. It would cause a recession everywhere surrounding” the country, including Japan and South Korea, and be “horrible” for Latin American commodity exporters, he said.

China, set to surpass Japan as the second-largest economy this year, has helped pull the world out of its deepest postwar slump. Record lending, soaring property values and accelerating economic growth prompted the government to begin retracting stimulus measures implemented during the global recession.

“Their response to the latest financial crisis clearly raised the risk that they have a debt-fueled bubble in the economy,” said Rogoff, who in 2008 predicted the failure of big American banks.

In 2008, China cut interest rates, started rolling out a 4 trillion yuan ($586 billion) spending package and scrapped quotas limiting lending by banks to counter slumping exports.



‘Best Bet’



While Rogoff said he isn’t sure what will cause China’s bubble to pop, he said land is “the best bet” as it is “the most common source” of crises. Real estate values in Shanghai and Beijing have “taken a departure from reality,” said the economist, co-author of “This Time is Different,” a 2009 book that charts the history of financial calamities in 66 countries.

A collapse would depress output gains to 2 to 3 percent, a “very painful” period which would persist for about a year and a half, Rogoff said. The slowdown won’t lead to a Japan- like “lost decade,” he added. In a speech earlier yesterday, he said China will do “very well this century.”

China, the world’s fastest-growing major economy, expanded 10.7 percent from a year earlier last quarter. The World Bank forecasts a 9 percent expansion in 2010.

China may provide more than a third of global growth in this year, according to Nomura Holdings Inc., Japan’s biggest broker. The country’s policy makers aim for a minimum of 8 percent growth annually to create jobs and avoid social unrest.



Migrant Laborers



The global financial crisis left 20 million Chinese migrant laborers unemployed and more than 7 million college graduates seeking work by March last year. In February 2009, a clash between police and about 1,000 protesting workers from a textile factory in Sichuan province injured six demonstrators, rights group Chinese Human Rights Defenders reported.

World exporters are increasingly relying on China as consumers in the U.S. and Europe retrench.

Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. are adding capacity in China, which last year overtook the U.S. as the biggest car market. Rio Tinto Group’s sales to China overtook those to North America and Europe in 2009, reaching 24.3 percent of the total from 18.8 percent a year earlier, the mining company said this month.

Chinese policy makers are trying to cool lending that helped property prices in 70 cities climb at the fastest pace in 21 months in January. The government aims to reduce new loans to 7.5 trillion yuan this year from a record 9.59 trillion yuan in 2009. The People’s Bank of China raised the proportion of deposits that lenders must set aside as reserves twice this year to cool the economy.

“If there’s a this-time-is-different story in the world right now, it’s China,” Rogoff said in the speech at a forum hosted by CLSA Asia-Pacific Markets, a unit of Credit Agricole SA, France’s largest retail bank.

People say China “won’t have a financial crisis because there’s central planning, because there’s a high savings rate, because there’s a large pool of labor, blah blah,” he added. “I say of course China will have a financial crisis one day.”




--With assistance from Jason Clenfield in Tokyo and Kevin Hamlin in Beijing. Editors: Russell Ward, Paul Panckhurst
 

theDoors

Alfrescian
Loyal
Actually triggering the property bubble in China is the fastest way to extinguish the wealth in Asia. It will have a domino effect.

The other would be counterfeiting A grade RMB paper currency, and letting it flow into the Chinese domestic market.
 

longbow

Alfrescian
Loyal
Well that article was Feb 24, 2010 - was 1 year ago.

So lets hope that does not happen. If that happens the world will dip into a deep recession. First we will see Beijing dumping its Treasuries to stimulate its economy, internal consumption will drop. Commodities prices will tank and large US and EU corps will have huge losses. More than 50% of GM's growth is in China.





Here is a very fair comment by a Harvard Don

Rogoff Says China Crisis May Trigger Regional Slump (Update1)
February 24, 2010, 12:23 AM EST
More From Businessweek
China Asset Bubble Concerns ‘Overdone,’ Baring Asset Says
Harvard’s Rogoff Gives Legs to China Crash Talk: William Pesek
Rogoff Says ‘Horrible’ China Crisis May Trigger Regional Slump
China’s Hidden Debt Risks 2012 Crisis, Northwestern’s Shih Says
Mexico Peso Drops Most in Year on Greek Debt Crisis (Correct)
Story Tools
e-mail this story print this story 0diggsdiggadd to Business Exchange (Adds example of social unrest in the 10th paragraph.)



By Aki Ito and Patrick Rial

Feb. 24 (Bloomberg) -- China’s economic growth will plunge to as low as 2 percent following the collapse of a “debt- fueled bubble” within 10 years, sparking a regional recession, according to Harvard University Professor Kenneth Rogoff.

“You’re not going to go a decade without having a bump in the business cycle,” Rogoff, former chief economist at the International Monetary Fund, said in an interview in Tokyo yesterday. “We would learn just how important China is when that happens. It would cause a recession everywhere surrounding” the country, including Japan and South Korea, and be “horrible” for Latin American commodity exporters, he said.

China, set to surpass Japan as the second-largest economy this year, has helped pull the world out of its deepest postwar slump. Record lending, soaring property values and accelerating economic growth prompted the government to begin retracting stimulus measures implemented during the global recession.

“Their response to the latest financial crisis clearly raised the risk that they have a debt-fueled bubble in the economy,” said Rogoff, who in 2008 predicted the failure of big American banks.

In 2008, China cut interest rates, started rolling out a 4 trillion yuan ($586 billion) spending package and scrapped quotas limiting lending by banks to counter slumping exports.



‘Best Bet’



While Rogoff said he isn’t sure what will cause China’s bubble to pop, he said land is “the best bet” as it is “the most common source” of crises. Real estate values in Shanghai and Beijing have “taken a departure from reality,” said the economist, co-author of “This Time is Different,” a 2009 book that charts the history of financial calamities in 66 countries.

A collapse would depress output gains to 2 to 3 percent, a “very painful” period which would persist for about a year and a half, Rogoff said. The slowdown won’t lead to a Japan- like “lost decade,” he added. In a speech earlier yesterday, he said China will do “very well this century.”

China, the world’s fastest-growing major economy, expanded 10.7 percent from a year earlier last quarter. The World Bank forecasts a 9 percent expansion in 2010.

China may provide more than a third of global growth in this year, according to Nomura Holdings Inc., Japan’s biggest broker. The country’s policy makers aim for a minimum of 8 percent growth annually to create jobs and avoid social unrest.



Migrant Laborers



The global financial crisis left 20 million Chinese migrant laborers unemployed and more than 7 million college graduates seeking work by March last year. In February 2009, a clash between police and about 1,000 protesting workers from a textile factory in Sichuan province injured six demonstrators, rights group Chinese Human Rights Defenders reported.

World exporters are increasingly relying on China as consumers in the U.S. and Europe retrench.

Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. are adding capacity in China, which last year overtook the U.S. as the biggest car market. Rio Tinto Group’s sales to China overtook those to North America and Europe in 2009, reaching 24.3 percent of the total from 18.8 percent a year earlier, the mining company said this month.

Chinese policy makers are trying to cool lending that helped property prices in 70 cities climb at the fastest pace in 21 months in January. The government aims to reduce new loans to 7.5 trillion yuan this year from a record 9.59 trillion yuan in 2009. The People’s Bank of China raised the proportion of deposits that lenders must set aside as reserves twice this year to cool the economy.

“If there’s a this-time-is-different story in the world right now, it’s China,” Rogoff said in the speech at a forum hosted by CLSA Asia-Pacific Markets, a unit of Credit Agricole SA, France’s largest retail bank.

People say China “won’t have a financial crisis because there’s central planning, because there’s a high savings rate, because there’s a large pool of labor, blah blah,” he added. “I say of course China will have a financial crisis one day.”




--With assistance from Jason Clenfield in Tokyo and Kevin Hamlin in Beijing. Editors: Russell Ward, Paul Panckhurst
 

theDoors

Alfrescian
Loyal
I think the US is very keen to trigger a financial crisis in Asia.

Since I am bankrupt, we shall all be bankrupt.
 

Dreamer1

Alfrescian
Loyal
Allow me,a fan of Spore wiseman,to recall MM LKY's prediction made in Oct 1993,18 years ago

The world in 2025-by LKY-Oct 1993

(1)Total GNP of PRC=Total GNP of USA
(2)China's per capita GNP=1/5 of USA
(3)Per capita GNP(2025)
Japan =100
USA=65
Spore,Taiwan,HK=60
Malaysia=20
China=13
Laos=6.7

WAS HE CORRECT?
WELL,LKY WAS MADLY IN LOVE WITH PROFESSOR EZRA F. VOGEL'S THEORY- JAPAN AS NUMBER (1), THEN(IN 1993).
 

longbow

Alfrescian
Loyal
The poorer the nation the more they will suffer from any US actions.

As it is QE2 is beginning to push up food prices. The very poor will suffer the most. If you make US$100 a day, 50 cents increase in your food price will not mean anything (maybe you layoff that morning latte). But for someone living on less than $2 a day that is a huge jump and can mean hunger at home.


I think the US is very keen to trigger a financial crisis in Asia.

Since I am bankrupt, we shall all be bankrupt.
 

theDoors

Alfrescian
Loyal
Allow me,a fan of Spore wiseman,to recall MM LKY's prediction made in Oct 1993,18 years ago

The world in 2025-by LKY-Oct 1993

(1)Total GNP of PRC=Total GNP of USA
(2)China's per capita GNP=1/5 of USA
(3)Per capita GNP(2025)
Japan =100
USA=65
Spore,Taiwan,HK=60
Malaysia=20
China=13
Laos=6.7

WAS HE CORRECT?
WELL,LKY WAS MADLY IN LOVE WITH PROFESSOR EZRA F. VOGEL'S THEORY- JAPAN AS NUMBER (1), THEN(IN 1993).

He never counted the Americans to "pull" a plaza accord on their trusted ally Japan.
 

theDoors

Alfrescian
Loyal
The poorer the nation the more they will suffer from any US actions.

As it is QE2 is beginning to push up food prices. The very poor will suffer the most. If you make US$100 a day, 50 cents increase in your food price will not mean anything (maybe you layoff that morning latte). But for someone living on less than $2 a day that is a huge jump and can mean hunger at home.

Starving peasants are good for mass uprising against the CCP, you know.
 

theDoors

Alfrescian
Loyal
US has been trying to topple the CCP since 1989. They haven't been very successful so far. That doesn't mean they going to stop trying.
 

GoFlyKiteNow

Alfrescian
Loyal
I believe that economy is the only deciding factor.

The world today all practise some kind of capitalism,with two exceptions,Cuba next to USA and N.Korea,next to China.Since the collapse of Berlin wall,the free world as we knew then,was suddenly injected with more than 5 billions consumers,bigger market and increase competition.

Global corporations have been riding this boom.

People would have less time to think about politics,as survival becomes the top priority.

The world will then be guided by unseen hand,this hand will lead to the ultimate system that the world has to live with rather than the world has chosen.

My humble opinion.

G7 nations.
1. Canada
2. France
3. Germany
4. Italy
5. Japan
6. United Kingdom
7. United States


The main arbiter of the global financial system entrenched by their
free float trade-able currency that is backed by its style of government.
Pluralistic, democratic and open, and subject to rule of law.

Russia, India, China and a few others have much bigger economies than
Italy, Canada. But they are not in it. Instead there is another grouping formed G20.

Hence economy was not the sole deciding factor to be in the G7.
Australia and New Zealand. Their economy are much smaller than Russia and many other nations whose economies are much bigger than NZ and Australia. But Kiwi dollar and Aussie dollar are traded in the free float mechanism of global trade. The world accept their confidence to float their currencies and make it trade-able around market forces. WHY ?

It is all about open economy, transparency and the confidence they instill
in the global financial system. Economy is all about confidence.
.
 

Rimururu

Alfrescian
Loyal
Debts are not much of a big deal, so long the country can sustain. Japan is one example. The Chinese economy is rising, but there are too many flaws in their infrastructure and people.

If you have been to Australia or US, you will be surprised at how many Chinese students are studying there and quite a significant percentage are sons/daughters of the Chinese elites/officials. It pretty much tells you where the elites think the future lies in. And most of these students end up taking PR or citizenship in their new host country.

Most PRC Chinese are divided and has susceptible loyalty to PRC. I feel that once most of these Chinese become rich and more educated, 80% will migrate to other western countries and ironically, contribute there, simply because most of the Chinese in PRC still think 'White is Might' despite government propaganda.

Another problem lies with China is the Tibet, Xinjiang and Taiwan issue. As it becomes the new 'world leader', it cannot afford to still act in a forceful way towards these disobedient states. But if it does not use force, then the troublesome three will most likely split.

My humble opinion.
 

Dreamer1

Alfrescian
Loyal
It is all about open economy, transparency and the confidence they instill
in the global financial system. Economy is all about confidence.

No dispute about that.But now it is G2-that is the work of the unseen hand!
 

GoFlyKiteNow

Alfrescian
Loyal
It is all about open economy, transparency and the confidence they instill
in the global financial system. Economy is all about confidence.

No dispute about that.But now it is G2-that is the work of the unseen hand!

There was a G 2 before. USA and Euro Zone.

But in times of crisis and fear, there is always only - G 1.
 

longbow

Alfrescian
Loyal
G7 is outdated and they know it. It is impossible to decide on global economic policy without adding in China and India.

They chose G20 because it is more politically correct.


G7 nations.
1. Canada
2. France
3. Germany
4. Italy
5. Japan
6. United Kingdom
7. United States


The main arbiter of the global financial system entrenched by their
free float trade-able currency that is backed by its style of government.
Pluralistic, democratic and open, and subject to rule of law.

Russia, India, China and a few others have much bigger economies than
Italy, Canada. But they are not in it. Instead there is another grouping formed G20.

Hence economy was not the sole deciding factor to be in the G7.
Australia and New Zealand. Their economy are much smaller than Russia and many other nations whose economies are much bigger than NZ and Australia. But Kiwi dollar and Aussie dollar are traded in the free float mechanism of global trade. The world accept their confidence to float their currencies and make it trade-able around market forces. WHY ?

It is all about open economy, transparency and the confidence they instill
in the global financial system. Economy is all about confidence.
.
 

KennyMGM

Alfrescian
Loyal
Actually triggering the property bubble in China is the fastest way to extinguish the wealth in Asia. It will have a domino effect.

The other would be counterfeiting A grade RMB paper currency, and letting it flow into the Chinese domestic market.

Just read somewhere that there is a shortage of paper currency
in China and they are working overtime to push out more into
circulation.
 

cheowyonglee

Alfrescian
Loyal
Debts are not much of a big deal, so long the country can sustain. Japan is one example. The Chinese economy is rising, but there are too many flaws in their infrastructure and people.

If you have been to Australia or US, you will be surprised at how many Chinese students are studying there and quite a significant percentage are sons/daughters of the Chinese elites/officials. It pretty much tells you where the elites think the future lies in. And most of these students end up taking PR or citizenship in their new host country.

Most PRC Chinese are divided and has susceptible loyalty to PRC. I feel that once most of these Chinese become rich and more educated, 80% will migrate to other western countries and ironically, contribute there, simply because most of the Chinese in PRC still think 'White is Might' despite government propaganda.

Another problem lies with China is the Tibet, Xinjiang and Taiwan issue. As it becomes the new 'world leader', it cannot afford to still act in a forceful way towards these disobedient states. But if it does not use force, then the troublesome three will most likely split.

My humble opinion.

ok let me tell you, you are wrong in the taiwan issuse!!! first of all, taiwanese and roc is 2 different thing.
 
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