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Beyond the Smokescreen: NEA-Hawkers-WP AHPeTC Saga

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset

http://singaporealternatives.blogspot.sg/2013/06/beyond-smokescreen-nea-hawkers-wp.html


The peculiar timing of this NEA-Hawkers-WP AHPeTC saga right after the AIM-FMSS issue has definitely given rise to suspicion that it is politically motivated attack on WP's core competency in Town Council management.

But this is politics and PAP has no qualms in making it known that Town Council management IS POLITICAL! This has been done right from the start when the Town Council system has been enacted way back in the late 1980s.

Singaporeans, especially those who are too young to understand how Town Council system comes about, should do some research and not bear any delusions about it. Thus for all opposition parties from then till now, are always very careful in managing the Town Councils because it is potentially where PAP's fixing will come.

But past history has shown that if opposition parties run their Town Councils properly, even PAP can't fix you that easily. The only thing they could do is to deprive your town all those upgrading.

The latest saga is slightly different here. PAP has used a different technique here. Hawkers are on the frontline while NEA is the support fire base. It started with an "innocent looking" report on a dispute between hawkers and AHPeTC, the Town Council run by Workers Party. Information reported on Straits Time is incomplete and sketchy. I suspect that information has been kept minimum for strategic purpose.

Sure enough we have prompt response from AHPeTC staff and the various statements start to shoot from all sides: NEA, Hawkers and WP MPs.

Many people are pretty confused what the whole saga is about. Worse, some people, in their eagerness to defend their political party, has dealt into misinformation and even WP MP Pritam was totally confused in NEA's accusation when he tried to reply.

The following are some simple facts gathered from press statements and news reports so far:

1) Hawkers claim they were asked to pay for the scaffolding during the March cleaning.

2) When they refused to pay, the contractor just did general cleaning without cleaning the ceiling. Instead of cleaning for the scheduled 5 days, they only cleaned for 1 day.

3) NEA stepped in and reminded that it is the responsibility of TC to clean the ceiling AT LEAST ONCE A YEAR without additional cost to hawkers.

4) AHPeTC claimed that they did not ask for extra cost and it was NEA which sent them an email to state that hawkers would arrange for the erection and dismantle of scaffolding

5) Hawkers disputed and said that Mr Tai, the property manager from AHPeTC has approached them to pay extra for the scaffolding.

6) NEA put up a statement to say that the hawkers have actually sent a letter to their WP MP to complain about the extra charges on 8 May.

7) WP Pritam put up statements to reiterate that they have followed the regulation and had cleaned the ceiling back in 2012. However, he made an error because what NEA said was that the AHPeTC did not pay for the scaffolding in its cleaning in 2012, not that they did not clean the ceiling.

8) It was further revealed that the contractor ATL has put up a quotation for scaffolding to the hawkers which they rejected and referred it to AHPeTC.

9) AHPeTC rebutted that it was the hawkers who ask for the quotation for the scaffoldng from ATL.

10) NEA further claimed that the quotation to WP AHPeTC by ATL include all equipment and scaffolding for the cleaning.

11) WP AHPeTC has insisted that it will only meet up with NEA officials instead with hawkers and that is why NEA didn't want to attend the first meeting.

There are reasons to believe that there are lies being told here, the question is who lied? There are contradictions all over the place.

When I first read about this news, my first thought is, how come the contractor did not provide the necessary equipment like scaffolding to do the cleaning? Why would they expect hawkers to pay and provide the scaffolding?

I guess this is basically why NEA has reiterated that it is the Town Council's responsibility to provide the scaffolding. The Town Council has acknowledged that responsibility and they keep saying they didn't ask the hawkers for extra charges. However, the puzzling thing is that since the hawkers have already sent their complain letter to their WP MP, why didn't the Town Council act on that? If Mr. Tai is not the "authorized personnel" from Town Council, why did he attend the 6 June meeting?

Even though Mr Tai was said to have communicated about this extra charges on scaffolding, AHPeTC still insisted that it did not know about the dealings between its contractor and ATL and the hawkers. It becomes the words of hawkers against AHPeTC.

What I am interested to know are the following:

1) Does the contract given to AHPeTC contractor include the clause on providing the necessary equipment and scaffolding?

2) If the Contract contains that clause, why would AHPeTC expect the hawkers to pay for the scaffolding when NEA emailed them to say hawkers will make necessary arrangement to erect and dismantle the scaffolding?

3) Can AHPeTC list out on which cleaning session in the past years did AHPeTC or its contractor had paid for the scaffolding?

4) AHPeTC apparently knew or expected that the Hawkers were to pay for the scaffolding. Did they stop them from paying as this was already included in its contract to its contractor ATL?

5) When ATL only did the general cleaning without cleaning the ceiling, why didn't AHPeTC take its contractor to task as its contract included the scaffolding?

6) Did AHPeTC take the guideline of "cleaning AT LEAST ONCE" as "cleaning only once"? This is apparently the attitude or position that Pritam has demonstrated in his two statements.

7) If that is so, has AHPeTC communicated such arrangement to the hawkers officially?

8) Did AHPeTC expect the hawkers to pay for scaffolding for all but one cleaning session in the whole year?

Although AHPeTC keeps saying that they have not asked hawkers to pay extra for cleaning the ceiling but so far, AHPeTC has not put up any example or cleaning sessions that they have paid for the scaffolding, instead of hawkers paying for that.

The only "plausible defence" WP AHPeTC has put up is that NEA has emailed them to say hawkers will arrange for erection and dismantling of scaffolding. It may seem to be a good point but upon closer inspection, it doesn't make sense at all. If there is a basic understanding that hawkers are not required to pay for anything extra, including the scaffolding, why should WP AHPeTC assumed that the hawkers will pay for it? A parallel can be drawn for an employee who agrees to make arrangement for food catering for company function, would anyone assumes that he will be paying for the food? Of course not! The Company would be expected to pay for it as the employee is just helping to coordinate with the arrangement! Thus, it is a total mystery why WP AHPeTC would come to that conclusion.

Another mystery points to what really happen to the letter of complaint sent to WP MP with regards to Mr Tai asking hawkers to pay for scaffolding. Has it been ignored totally?

The biggest mystery is why WP AHPeTC refused to have direct communication with the hawkers after the issue has been reported. If this issue is just a matter of "miscommunication" as reported, then what it needs is to improve its communications with the hawkers! It is counter-intuitive for WP AHPeTC to leave out its DIRECT CLIENTS out of the meeting or communication system!

What WP and its AHPeTC have done so far was beating around the bushes without giving any concrete facts to prove that AHPeTC has indeed paid for scaffolding in past cleaning sessions. WP may keep insisting that it has not asked hawkers to pay extra but it is not clear whether it has closed both eyes for its contractor to ask the hawkers to pay extra for the scaffolding. It should know that the contractor has contractual obligations to supply the scaffolding. It is thus a mystery why it didn't stop the hawkers to pay for something which has already been contractually included for its own contractor.

While WP has issued a defensive press statement about NEA playing politics that may have certain merits but playing victim to the whole saga will only score some brownie points which may not woo the middle ground voters. Such political rhetoric is unhelpful for voters to understand what has really happened.

WP Sylvia Lim has stated in her Press Statement that her party will work towards the benefits and welfare of residents and stallholders. I do not see how leaving its clients, i.e. hawkers out of communication would be beneficial to anybody. I also cannot understand how it could be beneficial to the hawkers when WP just closed its eyes, shut its mouth and making assumptions when it is apparent that the hawkers did not need to pay for the scaffolding as it was included in the contract to ATL Maintenance.

What is more telling is that although ATL Maintenance knows about its contractual obligations in providing the scaffolding, it has kept quiet about it and happily quoted the hawkers the price of putting up the scaffolding!

All finer details have pointed to some bigger problem if we look beyond those smokescreen and political rhetoric from both sides. Unfortunately I would say that integrity is somehow lacking somewhere but I am not a bit surprised at all.

What appears to be a storm in a cup has blown out of proportions. This issue would not have developed to this stage if proper media management and common sense have been put in place. If WP really believed in its rhetoric about not asking hawkers to pay extra for cleaning, then if there is such complaint being made, the first response should apologize for the non-delivery of service (wasted 4 days of income plus cost) and promise to investigate. It should send representatives to communicate directly with hawkers and find out more of the problems. That may be the end of the problem instead allowing the issue to snowball.

For whatever reasons that the hawker centre has not been thoroughly clean, the hawkers will naturally be angry. Apparently WP AHPeTC lacks the empathy to understand such frustration of hawkers in losing income plus cost for nothing. It has unwittingly to take every criticism or attack at its service as "politically motivated" and thus put up defensive postures since day one. Even if this is a politically motivated incident, one should not loose his sense of balance and reasoning when managing such issues which involve public interests. Such "SMART ALEC" mentality will and has done more harm than good to its overall image.

Goh Meng Seng
 
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Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
ATL letter1.jpg

By the documented proof, it is clear that the hawkers are not telling lies. The quotation given by AHPeTC's contractor ATL is about the whole HIGH RISE CLEANING, not just scaffolding. It means that hawkers are telling the truth that the contractor didn't want to clean anything above 2.5m without additional charges.

If this is included in AHPeTC's contract to ATL, why did ATL put up such quotation to hawkers for extra cost? The mystery reveals itself....

Goh Meng Seng
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
So now we have something very clear from the latest evidence put up. The Hawkers were misled and told by AHTC staff Mr Tai that they need to pay extra to contractor for High Rise Cleaning, so they ask how much? The ATL, although knowing that it is their contractual obligation to clean the ceiling without further charges, happily quoted the hawkers $7200, NOT ONLY for the scaffolding but the whole package of High Rise Cleaning as well.

So whose fault? The AHTC's staff Mr Tai's and ATL's fault lah! Very simple and straight forward!

Goh Meng Seng
 

myfoot123

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
So now we have something very clear from the latest evidence put up. The Hawkers were misled and told by AHTC staff Mr Tai that they need to pay extra to contractor for High Rise Cleaning, so they ask how much? The ATL, although knowing that it is their contractual obligation to clean the ceiling without further charges, happily quoted the hawkers $7200, NOT ONLY for the scaffolding but the whole package of High Rise Cleaning as well.

So whose fault? The AHTC's staff Mr Tai's and ATL's fault lah! Very simple and straight forward!

Goh Meng Seng

YOu are being mischievious, misleading, and making false allegations by PAP's standard, your claims has no basis, you are not involved in any of the parties in question. You will be send a lawyer's letter to take down your articles while independent review has almost completed and everyone is already very happy with the latest arrangement. Case close.
 

Debonerman

Alfrescian
Loyal
Guys, don't engage this spiteful and jealous woman Miss Goh Make Shit. You will only encourage and confuse the issue further. Let me, Debonerman deal with him in my usual cultured manner.

Goh Meng Seng! Fuck your mother puah cheebye!
 

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
I wonder if anyone had considered that this is nothing more than a simple mistake by ATL. ATL sent the invoice to the hawkers because they errornously thought hawkers would be the ones footing the bill. The invoice should have been sent to AHPETC instead

This is a very simple misunderstanding that has been escalated out of proportion. Worse still WP is made to take the heat for a genuine error committed by a third party.

Let's get some sense of proportion here. Were this honest error to have happened in a PAP ward, the whole issue would have been resolved in hours. Simple case of invoice sent to wrong party by mistake
 

kukubird58

Alfrescian
Loyal
I wonder if anyone had considered that this is nothing more than a simple mistake by ATL. ATL sent the invoice to the hawkers because they errornously thought hawkers would be the ones footing the bill. The invoice should have been sent to AHPETC instead

This is a very simple misunderstanding that has been escalated out of proportion. Worse still WP is made to take the heat for a genuine error committed by a third party.

Let's get some sense of proportion here. Were this honest error to have happened in a PAP ward, the whole issue would have been resolved in hours. Simple case of invoice sent to wrong party by mistake
hahaha....now change of tack already......
i thought u were the one who said that hawkers asked for additional cleaning.....
now u said it was a honest error by ATL......so which is which???
 

steffychun

Alfrescian
Loyal
GMS, at least arrogant snot Tan Jee Say tried for the President and failed. You on the other hand are starting to be worse than Chee or even Goplan Nair (heh both of you are Go)
 

IamTiong

Alfrescian
Loyal
what to do? WP also want to play the public disclosure game. If they just say the contractor sent to the wrong person and apologize for any misunderstanding, case close liao.

But they also die die want the last word.... but fail to realize we dont care! :smile:


I wonder if anyone had considered that this is nothing more than a simple mistake by ATL. ATL sent the invoice to the hawkers because they errornously thought hawkers would be the ones footing the bill. The invoice should have been sent to AHPETC instead

This is a very simple misunderstanding that has been escalated out of proportion. Worse still WP is made to take the heat for a genuine error committed by a third party.

Let's get some sense of proportion here. Were this honest error to have happened in a PAP ward, the whole issue would have been resolved in hours. Simple case of invoice sent to wrong party by mistake
 

winnipegjets

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Harban Goh, please don't distort the truth lah. Have some integrity, okay. Cannot tahan reading your verbose bs.

Ask Sam Leong to get you over to NZ. He thinks highly of you and the New Zealand First party will welcome you with great 'celebrations'. Go and don't come back.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
I would not discount that possibility BUT most likely I will view that as an attempt to get extra money from hawkers by double charging them for work which has already been paid by the TC's contract.

However, WP and AHPeTC cannot disclaim responsibility from such unethical attempt by its own contractor. It has the assumed responsibility of its contractor's professional ethics and conduct. What it should have done is to take its contractor to task, especially when they failed to deliver the contractual service after they failed to get the extra charges from the hawkers. Their integrity is doubtful and AHPeTC should sack them altogether. However what we are seeing is that AHPeTC has bent backward to protect this contractor. Very disappointing and unprofessional.

Goh Meng Seng


I wonder if anyone had considered that this is nothing more than a simple mistake by ATL. ATL sent the invoice to the hawkers because they errornously thought hawkers would be the ones footing the bill. The invoice should have been sent to AHPETC instead

This is a very simple misunderstanding that has been escalated out of proportion. Worse still WP is made to take the heat for a genuine error committed by a third party.

Let's get some sense of proportion here. Were this honest error to have happened in a PAP ward, the whole issue would have been resolved in hours. Simple case of invoice sent to wrong party by mistake
 

Huatchye

Alfrescian
Loyal
from a friend of mine:
我是一名退休人员。我一直关注自己的生意。多年来几乎每个周末,我都会去看望在勿落的姐姐。位于BLK 511的小贩中心是我们日常的市场。上周,我和姐姐去市场,亲眼看到小贩中心的天花板很脏乱。实在不太体面。如果这样的问题不得已解决,将会成为公众卫生问题。我用自己的手机拍了照片,虽然不是很清晰,我想也能准确表达我的意图和我所关心的问题。Sylvia Lim 和WP议员Pritam Singh负责市议会。他们的工作就是确保各个地方的清洁。因此当地小贩才会支付他们费用。承包商已认同合同内容却是如此。因此,市议会没有强迫他们根据合同履行义务。并非拥护当地中心小贩,反而为何这两位议员却尽量保护和掩饰承包商,承包商不仅没有完成合同中付款的工作,还试图从较为贫穷的小贩那里抽取额外的费用。我对这些小商贩的了解已有些时日。他们不想招惹麻烦。他们只想谋生。如果他们解释的太多,他们会很害怕。市议会令他们的生活雪上加霜。事实上,小贩们很团结,他们发出了寻求帮助的请愿,只是为了表达这一切有些太过分了,以至于他们无法再容忍下去。正如我所说的,如大多数人一样,我通常只介意我自己的生意,但是这实在是太过分了。如小贩们一样,我也无法接受Sylvia Lim和 Pritam Singh所给的任何推辞和指责。他们应停止玩弄政治,做好他们份内之事。
 
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Seee3

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
I would not discount that possibility BUT most likely I will view that as an attempt to get extra money from hawkers by double charging them for work which has already been paid by the TC's contract.

However, WP and AHPeTC cannot disclaim responsibility from such unethical attempt by its own contractor. It has the assumed responsibility of its contractor's professional ethics and conduct. What it should have done is to take its contractor to task, especially when they failed to deliver the contractual service after they failed to get the extra charges from the hawkers. Their integrity is doubtful and AHPeTC should sack them altogether. However what we are seeing is that AHPeTC has bent backward to protect this contractor. Very disappointing and unprofessional.

Goh Meng Seng
Please do not capitalize on mistake of others to hoodwink forumers. I did not remember seeing any invoice being sent by contractor to HA. A quotation is not an invoice it is an offer for work to be done while an invoice is a bill for work completed. Please explain how a maintenance contract is called by TC if you do know Do you think that it is a one off contract detailing the works involved?

To my knonledge, TC usually call Term Contracts for maintenance work. Such contracts just contain a listing of different kinds of works that the contractOr will be expected to deliver within certain period of notification. The rates of payment are reflected against each work item. Contractor simply tender by stating plus or minus a certain % from the given rates. As and when the actual work is required, it is activated through Works Order. Details of the list of works needed are specified in the Works Order and payment will be based on the actal quality of work done and the agreed rates. Please don't confuse others for whatever reason or ignorance.
 
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Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
You are really the confused one. Please get all the facts first before you try to accuse or flame me for anything.

This has been posted here, the quotation from ATL to hawkers for "High Rise Cleaning". It is an ATTEMPT to double charge the hawkers, period.

attachment.php


Goh Meng Seng


Please do not capitalize on mistake of others to hoodwink forumers. I did not remember seeing any invoice being sent by contractor to HA. A quotation is not an invoice it is an offer for work to be done while an invoice is a bill for work completed. Please explain how a maintenance contract is called by TC if you do know Do you think that it is a one off contract detailing the works involved?

To my knonledge, TC usually call Term Contracts for maintenance work. Such contracts just contain a listing of different kinds of works that the contractOr will be expected to deliver within certain period of notification. The rates of payment are reflected against each work item. Contractor simply tender by stating plus or minus a certain % from the given rates. As and when the actual work is required, it is activated through Works Order. Details of the list of works needed are specified in the Works Order and payment will be based on the actal quality of work done and the agreed rates. Please don't confuse others for whatever reason or ignorance.
 

Thick Face Black Heart

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
I would not discount that possibility BUT most likely I will view that as an attempt to get extra money from hawkers by double charging them for work which has already been paid by the TC's contract.

However, WP and AHPeTC cannot disclaim responsibility from such unethical attempt by its own contractor. It has the assumed responsibility of its contractor's professional ethics and conduct. What it should have done is to take its contractor to task, especially when they failed to deliver the contractual service after they failed to get the extra charges from the hawkers. Their integrity is doubtful and AHPeTC should sack them altogether. However what we are seeing is that AHPeTC has bent backward to protect this contractor. Very disappointing and unprofessional.

Goh Meng Seng



ATL Contractor is also the key contractor providing certain PAP TCs with services. Are you saying WP is also interested in protecting the PAP?
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
Well, you will have to ask WP!

It is either WP takes firm actions against such errant contractors or be viewed as in cahoot with these contractors. No other way round it. Apparently WP has chosen to be seen as the later.

Goh Meng Seng

ATL Contractor is also the key contractor providing certain PAP TCs with services. Are you saying WP is also interested in protecting the PAP?
 

Leongsam

High Order Twit / Low SES subject
Admin
Asset
Dear Mr Goh Meng Seng,

Thank you very much for your concise and accurate analysis of the whole situation. Without you, the facts would not have been forthcoming.

You are indeed an asset to this forum and I look forward to your continued inputs.
 

Seee3

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
You are really the confused one. Please get all the facts first before you try to accuse or flame me for anything.

This has been posted here, the quotation from ATL to hawkers for "High Rise Cleaning". It is an ATTEMPT to double charge the hawkers, period.

attachment.php


Goh Meng Seng

You have been trying to create an impression that ATL on it's own initiative sent the quotation to HA so that they have a chance to double charge. Anyone in this line will know that quotation is sent only upon request. From the first sentence in the letter, "Thank you for INVITING us to quote", it is clear that HA has invited ATL to quote for the cleaning. The unanswered question should be why would HA ask for a quotation if they are not going to pay? Therefore, it is not as insinuated by you that the contractor is trying to double charge. As a pte contractor it has the obligation to maintain goodwill if a prospective client asked for a quote even if we know that they are not likely to engage us or someone else is paying for the same job. Therefore, that quotation letter does not imply any attemPt by the contractor to cheat. In fact, it will clear doubts if HA can come out to clarify why they are getting a quote if the cleaning is to be done and paid by the TC.
 

Goh Meng Seng

Alfrescian (InfP) [Comp]
Generous Asset
It doesn't really matter, really. You still cannot see the light... at least WP is careful to start to distance itself from ATL.

ATL knew its contractual obligation to clean everything. It should not be quoting nor asking for extra charges to the hawkers under any circumstances. That is an dishonest act and that is exactly what pissed the hawkers off. This is the ROOT of the problem.

Goh Meng Seng






You have been trying to create an impression that ATL on it's own initiative sent the quotation to HA so that they have a chance to double charge. Anyone in this line will know that quotation is sent only upon request. From the first sentence in the letter, "Thank you for INVITING us to quote", it is clear that HA has invited ATL to quote for the cleaning. The unanswered question should be why would HA ask for a quotation if they are not going to pay? Therefore, it is not as insinuated by you that the contractor is trying to double charge. As a pte contractor it has the obligation to maintain goodwill if a prospective client asked for a quote even if we know that they are not likely to engage us or someone else is paying for the same job. Therefore, that quotation letter does not imply any attemPt by the contractor to cheat. In fact, it will clear doubts if HA can come out to clarify why they are getting a quote if the cleaning is to be done and paid by the TC.
 

Seee3

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
It doesn't really matter, really. You still cannot see the light... at least WP is careful to start to distance itself from ATL.

ATL knew its contractual obligation to clean everything. It should not be quoting nor asking for extra charges to the hawkers under any circumstances. That is an dishonest act and that is exactly what pissed the hawkers off. This is the ROOT of the problem.

Goh Meng Seng
If HA is bluffed into believing that they need pay for the high level cleaning, which is why they are asking for the quotation then I hope that they can come out to expose them. Until such information is made public, it is not fair to make speculations that will adversely affect the reputation of others since we are not in the loop.
 
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