• IP addresses are NOT logged in this forum so there's no point asking. Please note that this forum is full of homophobes, racists, lunatics, schizophrenics & absolute nut jobs with a smattering of geniuses, Chinese chauvinists, Moderate Muslims and last but not least a couple of "know-it-alls" constantly sprouting their dubious wisdom. If you believe that content generated by unsavory characters might cause you offense PLEASE LEAVE NOW! Sammyboy Admin and Staff are not responsible for your hurt feelings should you choose to read any of the content here.

    The OTHER forum is HERE so please stop asking.

Are we in a Deflationary Spiral?

Einfield

Alfrescian
Loyal
A deflationary spiral is a situation where decreases in price lead to lower production, which in turn leads to lower wages and demand, which leads to further decreases in price. Since reductions in general price level are called deflation, a deflationary spiral is when reductions in price lead to a vicious circle, where a problem exacerbates its own cause. The Great Depression was regarded as a deflationary spiral.

We are entering into one right now.

1.) Massive factory closure in China due to cancel orders from mainly USA, forcing missions into unemployment.

2.) 3 big US auto makers on verge of collapse, seeking government intervention or another few hundred thousands will be unemployed

3.) Commodities like Copper, Aluminum, Oil price plunged.

4.) Banks, Financial institutions, even country suffer credit crunch, economy coming to a halt.


If we are not able to pull out from this spiral, the consequence this time round will be more far reaching the the Great Depression, Thanks to Globalization.

To counter it, people need to spend but ironically, with job insecurity, unemployment, people will be more caution and hold back spending, which will accelerate the spiral downwards.

Looking at today's situation, with 1.2M job loss in US this year so far and no sign of stopping, they will hit over 8% unemployment by next year.

US Being the biggest consumer and head of the food chain, I can safely predict the damage down line will magnified many time in US export orientated economies, like China and Singapore.

Brace yourself brothers and sisters.
 

theblackhole

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
yes, brace yourself for the worst scenario - worst to come.

this is not unexpected and this is not a surprise. sammyboys have been warning and writing on the walls for so long....just that singaporeans are nut heads banging into thick walls.what to do? now all of us are suffering and will have to share this herd mentality of utter foolishness and stupidity...and gullibility. we die die liao lah. nevermind lah.just take care yourself and your families...and wish for the best.
 

Einfield

Alfrescian
Loyal
We can see desparate measures put in place everywhere to combat this, China's shocking economic stimulus package is quick and swift, they are in a live and death situation now as millions of unemployed prople can get out of hand real fast.

US mostly rescue packages, Tax payers are getting sick and tired having to bail out fat cats who still fly around in privat jets asking for more money.

Taiwan / Japan have coupon for their citizen to stimilate spending and hope to reverse the sprial.

Singapore? We are supose to go for re-training.
 

Neh_Neh_Pok

Alfrescian
Loyal
Are we in a Deflationary Spiral?

lhl1.jpg


"Well for that I would say mee siam mai hum. Hei hei hei hei hei.."
 

xebay11

Alfrescian
Loyal
yes, brace yourself for the worst scenario - worst to come.

this is not unexpected and this is not a surprise. sammyboys have been warning and writing on the walls for so long....just that singaporeans are nut heads banging into thick walls.what to do? now all of us are suffering and will have to share this herd mentality of utter foolishness and stupidity...and gullibility. we die die liao lah. nevermind lah.just take care yourself and your families...and wish for the best.

Huh? We have to take care of ourselves now? I thought you mentioned a top secret game plan by the great PAP to get out of this rut.
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
If we are not able to pull out from this spiral, the consequence this time round will be more far reaching the the Great Depression, Thanks to Globalization.

To counter it, people need to spend but ironically, with job insecurity, unemployment, people will be more caution and hold back spending, which will accelerate the spiral downwards.

come to think of it, i haven't been spending that much too, and i wonder why... :eek::eek::eek:
 

zhihau

Super Moderator
SuperMod
Asset
You're not the only one, imagine this on a Global scale.

but it shows the fact we do not need that many things after all :p

for everything else, consumerism is just compelling folks to spend unnecessarily, isn't it? :biggrin:
 

Einfield

Alfrescian
Loyal
You will actually find happiness in living with less.
A secret that rich guys will never understand.
 

jesus

Alfrescian
Loyal
Today I was buying zhup cai png dinner, this guy in front of me ordered just one dish and asked for lots of curry. Some cost cutting. Usually its the foreign labourers who do that.


Or maybe he is on diet lol.
 

Dan Now

Alfrescian
Loyal
A deflationary spiral is a situation where decreases in price lead to lower production, which in turn leads to lower wages and demand, which leads to further decreases in price. Since reductions in general price level are called deflation, a deflationary spiral is when reductions in price lead to a vicious circle, where a problem exacerbates its own cause. The Great Depression was regarded as a deflationary spiral.

We are entering into one right now.

1.) Massive factory closure in China due to cancel orders from mainly USA, forcing missions into unemployment.

2.) 3 big US auto makers on verge of collapse, seeking government intervention or another few hundred thousands will be unemployed

3.) Commodities like Copper, Aluminum, Oil price plunged.

4.) Banks, Financial institutions, even country suffer credit crunch, economy coming to a halt.


If we are not able to pull out from this spiral, the consequence this time round will be more far reaching the the Great Depression, Thanks to Globalization.

To counter it, people need to spend but ironically, with job insecurity, unemployment, people will be more caution and hold back spending, which will accelerate the spiral downwards.

Looking at today's situation, with 1.2M job loss in US this year so far and no sign of stopping, they will hit over 8% unemployment by next year.

US Being the biggest consumer and head of the food chain, I can safely predict the damage down line will magnified many time in US export orientated economies, like China and Singapore.

Brace yourself brothers and sisters.

Dear Ein,

A timely post indeed. It is strange that our local State Media is still trying to CON our citizens into maintaining that things are not as bad.

You just have to check out the recent huge splash on our papers about the "COE bonus" going to historic rock bottom prices to attract Singaporeans to buy cars.

This is not only irresponsible but totally humbug move by our transport ministry to promote car ownership at such times. And I thought the RayGun Gantry Lim was trying to ease congestion in our cities ? None of the reporters even question the trend and ask the obvious question.

"ARE TIMES SO BAD THAT COE PRICES HAVE DROP TO ITS HISTORIC LOW ?"

So bros and sis, be prudent in your spending and please do not take anything from the media at face value. Critical thinking and coolness must prevail at such times. And do remember, Singapore is in a recession now. So no matter how our STATE TIMES spin it to be otherwise or try to play down the facts, the figures speaks for itself.

Dan
 

Dan Now

Alfrescian
Loyal
Dear friends,

Do check out this recommended article about the state of the US economy.

Stocks Are Hurt by Latest Fear: Declining Prices </NYT_HEADLINE><SCRIPT language=JavaScript type=text/JavaScript>function getSharePasskey() { return 'ex=1384923600&en=597aa81b0cb6f272&ei=5124';}</SCRIPT><SCRIPT language=JavaScript type=text/JavaScript>function getShareURL() { return encodeURIComponent('http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/business/economy/20econ.html');}function getShareHeadline() { return encodeURIComponent('Stocks Are Hurt by Latest Fear: Declining Prices');}function getShareDescription() { return encodeURIComponent('The Dow fell below 8,000 as concern spread that the economy might be facing a chronic and debilitating decline in prices.');}function getShareKeywords() { return encodeURIComponent('Prices (Fares, Fees and Rates),Consumer Price Index,Stocks and Bonds');}function getShareSection() { return encodeURIComponent('business');}function getShareSectionDisplay() { return encodeURIComponent(' / ');}function getShareSubSection() { return encodeURIComponent('economy');}function getShareByline() { return encodeURIComponent('By VIKAS BAJAJ');}function getSharePubdate() { return encodeURIComponent('November 20, 2008');}</SCRIPT>
<SCRIPT language=javascript> <!-- function submitCCCForm(){ PopUp = window.open('', '_Icon','location=no,toolbar=no,status=no,width=650,height=550,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes'); this.document.cccform.submit(); } // --> </SCRIPT><FORM name=cccform action=https://s100.copyright.com/CommonApp/LoadingApplication.jsp target=_Icon>By VIKAS BAJAJ</FORM>
</NYT_BYLINE>Published: November 19, 2008
<!--NYT_INLINE_IMAGE_POSITION1 --><NYT_TEXT>After gyrating wildly for weeks, the stock market lurched lower on Wednesday, falling to its lowest point in nearly six years, as concern spread that the economy might be facing a chronic and debilitating decline in prices.
Skip to next paragraph
20econ.graph.gif



1119-biz-ECON-ConsumerPrices.jpg

The New York Times


1119-biz-ECON-Housing-Construction.jpg
The New York Times


Enlarge This Image
Mark Lennihan/Associated Press
Construction on a 30-story condominium tower in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn. Construction of new homes cooled last month, reaching the slowest pace on record.

The Dow Jones industrial average closed below 8,000 for the first time since early 2003 after new reports painted a grim picture of the economy and raised the specter of deflation, which would put more strain on hard-pressed businesses and workers.

The Labor Department reported that prices of consumer goods and services fell by a record amount in October, while another report showed that a measure of home building fell for the fourth straight month, to its lowest level in the 49 years that the government has kept that data.
While most consumers might welcome the idea that things are getting cheaper, deflation is an economists’ nightmare. It was a hallmark of the Depression and Japan’s so-called lost decade in the 1990s. A big worry is that deflation would blunt the impact of interest rate cuts by the Federal Reserve, forcing policy makers to use other tools to try to revive the economy.

The Consumer Price Index, a measure of how much Americans pay for groceries, entertainment and other goods and services, fell by 1 percent in October, to an annualized rate of 3.7 percent, according to the Labor Department. It was the biggest one-month drop in the 61-year history of the index and the lowest annualized gain since October of last year.
Much of the decline could be traced to a 14 percent drop in the price of gasoline, but the cost of other goods — including clothes, milk and vegetables — also fell sharply.

The vice chairman of the Fed, Donald L. Kohn, said that the risk of deflation, defined as a “general decline in prices,” remained slight but had increased. “Whatever I thought that risk was, four or five months ago, I think it is bigger now even if it is still small,” Mr. Kohn said in response to a question after a speech. The Fed, he added, would be aggressive, if necessary, to prevent a broad drop in prices.
Stocks started falling shortly after 10 a.m. and ground their way down for much of the day before tumbling sharply in the last hour of trading. The broad Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index closed down 6.1 percent, to 806.58, falling below a low it set on Oct. 27. The index is now only 37 points above its October 2002 low. The Dow dropped 427.47, or 5.1 percent, to 7,997.28.

Financial shares led the market down, with Citigroup falling by more than 23 percent and Bank of America closing down 14 percent. General Motors and the Ford Motor Company also tumbled as prospects for a federal aid packaged looked grim. “That spooked investors quite a bit,” said Sam Stovall, chief equity strategist at Standard & Poor’s Equity Research. “G.M. and Citigroup, two venerable companies, are right now on the ropes.”

In the credit market, the price of corporate debt and bonds backed by commercial mortgages plummeted, while government bonds rallied as investors sought safe havens. The yield on the 10-year Treasury, which moves in the opposite direction from its price, fell to 3.32 percent, from 3.53 on Tuesday.

Analysts say a sustained decline in consumer prices would be terrible for the economy. Businesses that cut prices to attract buyers are likely to have to lay off workers as well. They may also have little left over to pay lenders or shareholders.
Prices are falling outside the United States too. Consumer prices declined in Britain, France, Germany and elsewhere in Europe in October, and prices were flat in September in Japan, which has fought deflation on and off for nearly two decades.

The decline in consumer prices is all the more remarkable because this summer many economists were concerned about inflation and the prospect for stagflation, in which inflation and unemployment rise simultaneously, contrary to their usual relationship. “It’s funny that just a few months ago everyone was wringing their hands over inflation,” said Nariman Behravesh, chief economist at Global Insight. “It’s gone. It’s over.”

But that concern has been quickly dashed, in large part because of a steep drop in commodity prices. Crude oil prices, for instance, have fallen more than 63 percent from their July peak of $145.29 a barrel, to $53.62 on Wednesday. The national average price for unleaded gasoline is now $2.05 a gallon, down from $2.92 a month earlier, according to AAA, the auto club.
 

Dan Now

Alfrescian
Loyal
To continue,

In fact, it now seems clear that the nation is entering a more frugal era after several years of conspicuous consumption.
For instance, room rates at luxury hotels fell 5.4 percent in the 28 days ending on Nov. 15 — in contrast to a 1.3 percent increase in rates at midscale hotels that do not serve food, estimated Smith Travel Research, a firm that studies the industry. Over all, hotel prices fell 1.6 percent in October, according to the Labor Department.

High-end retailers are resorting to drastic discounting to lure customers into stores. Executives at Nordstrom, the department store chain, said on a recent conference call with analysts that the company had lowered prices on more than 800 clothing styles by an average of 22 percent.
Airfares, which were rising along with energy prices this summer, are now sliding as airlines struggle to fill seats on many popular routes. The average price of a one-way ticket is down about 20 percent from July, to $107 in mid-November, according to Harrell Associates, a firm that tracks the airline industry.

Still, the so-called core price index — which excludes energy and food — was down a more modest 0.1 percent. The prices of goods and services like meat, alcohol, medical care and education increased in October.
“It would take significant and persistent contraction in the economy to push core inflation into negative territory,” said Dean Maki, an economist at Barclays Capital in New York. “We do not think that is likely, especially given the aggressive policy response on the part of the Fed and Treasury.”

The Fed has already cut its benchmark interest rate to 1 percent from 5.25 percent last year, and it has been lending hundreds of billions of dollars to banks and corporations in recent months to revive credit markets. The Treasury has also pumped nearly $300 billion into banks and other financial firms.

The Fed is anticipating significant further slowing in the economy. A report released on Wednesday shows that the Fed now expects 2009 growth to be 1.8 percent to minus 1 percent, down from a previous forecast of growth of 1.9 percent to 3 percent.
Even though the Fed’s target interest rate is close to zero, economists say there is much more the central bank and the government can do to revive the economy. In a speech in 2002, before he was the chairman of the Fed, Ben S. Bernanke said central banks could combat deflation by buying longer-term Treasury and mortgage-backed securities to drive down interest rates.

“The Fed is going to ram liquidity into the financial system whether it is asking for it or not, just going out and buying assets and printing money in order to do it,” said Alan D. Levenson, chief economist at T. Rowe Price. “If you jam money into everyone’s pocket, they will spend it.”

Furthermore, lawmakers in Washington are also expected to pass a significant fiscal stimulus package in January after the new administration and Congress take power. Policy makers could head off deflation by spending hundreds of billions of dollars on tax breaks, infrastructure projects and other initiatives.

<NYT_AUTHOR_ID>Jack Healy and Stephanie Rosenbloom contributed reporting.
 

2lanu

Alfrescian
Loyal
I remembered a thread on "How money come from?" at the old forum vividly. The world went into expansion mode where "talented" ppl created wealth for the nation and govt print currency notes to support the growth.

It's easier for "talent" ppl here to just copycat what are working at the West and wealth is created instantly. But when the West collapse so too will here. But 100% collapse will not happen. Maybe can put it 35%-50% collapse. I called it "actualisation".
 

suteerak1099

Alfrescian
Loyal
talking about deflationary spiral? we entered into that phase ever since the 90's, just that not many saw it coming. the initial phase was a very gentle spiral, after the millenium, the spiral became steeper.... now without much substance to hold, the spiral is nothing by a sharp fall.
 
Top