5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm ball

[Windsor2012]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

The 5.56 NATO round is very destructive - because of its lightweight, it has a tendency to 'tumble' inside the body and cause a lot of damage. And if the article is right, it seems like it's the shoot to wound policy rather than the calibre of their weapons that is the problem.

Also, TS's source mentioned the calibre of the AK47's round (7.62) without mentioning that it is a Warsaw Pact round (39mm in length) and is in fact shorter (and contains about the same amount of propellent but pushing a larger round) than the 5.56 NATO (45mm).

That is the problem when people copy/paste about something they have little knowledge of and spout nonsense.

I have witnessed a bullet wound of a 5.56mm round through a thigh during my NS days. The hole it made was very small but the exit wound was so big that only a shell dressing and not a field dressing could help the soldier. Fortunately for the soldier, the round did not hit the bones otherwise really koyak.

My point? When the round enters the body it spins and tumbles inside and makes the wound ever worse than the diameter of the round.

Sine TS never responded to my questions, the recoil from a 7.62 mm round is so much stronger than the 5.56 mm round. After some time, your bloody shoulders will feel so sore and painful that you won't want to fire another round. When firing from the hips, due to the recoil, if you are not physically strong, the rifle will go every which way in all directions which will endanger your comrades. A 7.62 mm rifle will be much heavier than one that shoots 5.56 mm rounds, a fact any idiot should know.

 

[singveld]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

Why stop at 7.92mm. a 20mm should get things done very effectively

we are talking about assault rifle ammunition only.

 

[singveld]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

It is heavier, but you kill the terrorist in one shot. so you carry less, but train to shoot properly and shoot only when necessary.
what is the problem? It is the training of the soldier that matter.

If our enemy are not blood thirty animal , sure we can still to 5.56mm and eco bullet like the brits.
No, since we are surrounded by terrorist, we need lead bullet with full metal jacket and we need 7.62 NATO.

True the russian AK-47 uses a shorter and lighter ammo, but to prevent too much logistical problem, let keep to a well used and well known ammo.

If it is for me, we should use the NAZI 7.62mm bullet, the one from their MG42, to shoot them, unfortunately such assault rifles does not exists.

technological improvement have improved the recoil problem of bigger ammo, therefore it is possible to equip our soldier with such assault rifles. the right tool for the right enemy.

Some chin cannot throw grenade, kick him out too. One twit can result in the death of whole platoon.

These are combat experience from soldier fighting in the war, better than any official documents.

Have you served in a combat unit before? If so have you ever tried firing both rifles with these 2 calibres? Have you ever carried boxes of ammo in your life? The difference in weight of the 7.62 mm is almost double, which can affect the number of rounds an Asian soldier is able to carry. Don't regurgitate write-ups by ang mohs because our people have a smaller frame, hence we are weaker physically.

Please also remove m&d who cannot throw grenade from our force.

Don't be a racist as other races are also afraid to throw grenades. 2nd Lt Tay Siow Kai died due to a Chinese recruit's stupidity.

As for the rest of the report, don't believe everything you read. It is easy on the Internet to find rumors about the “lack of lethality” of the 5.56 NATO round:

“Ineffectiveness at long range”
“Inconsistent wounding effect”
“Poor intermediate barrier penetration”
“Ease of deflection”

The fact is that there are no official documents that the 5.56mm NATO caliber has failed in any NATO Army. On the contrary, we have official documents stating that there is no problem with the lethality of the 5.56mm caliber at all. Most NATO nations even agree that the next generation of small arms weapons by 2020 will still be using the 5.56mm NATO caliber.

 

[singveld]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

If indeed wat u said is true, u tink u still alive today?

we are still alive today, because of the awesome power of US navy. Singapore will never exists in any other time, small rich state in history are always crushed by poorer bigger state. When US power end, singapore is FINI.

 

[singveld]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

Come on TS, don't open a thread, make statements and then run and hide. Let's discuss what you have put on the table.

go out to do some errands.

 

[singveld]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

nonsense, everyone know 7.62 have more stopping power than 5.56.

yeah 7.62 NATO is bigger than 7.62 warsaw, so what?
that means our gun is more powerful.

more powerful is good.

why dun we use the NAZI 7.62mm MG42 round, that is even better.

The 5.56 NATO round is very destructive - because of its lightweight, it has a tendency to 'tumble' inside the body and cause a lot of damage. And if the article is right, it seems like it's the 'shoot-to-wound' policy rather than the calibre of their weapons that is the problem.

TS probably doesn't realize that the recoil from a 7.62 NATO round is much stronger than from a 5.56 NATO round, and that affects accuracy.

Finally, TS's source mentioned the calibre of the AK47's round (7.62) without mentioning that it is a Warsaw Pact round (39mm in length) and is in fact shorter (and contains about the same amount of powder but having to propel a considerably larger round) than the 5.56 NATO (45mm).

View attachment 9694
Top - 5.56 NATO (45mm), Bottom - 7.62 Warsaw Pact (39mm)

 

[singveld]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

you saw 5.56mm wound on a soldier in your NS days?
the hole at the back is big, so what?
did he die instantly?
who care if bullet tumble and create a big hole, did he or did he not die instantly

that is the whole debate about using 7.62 NATO to kill terrorist, we want to kill them outright. It is the right tool or the right enemy.

That is the problem when people copy/paste about something they have little knowledge of and spout nonsense.

I have witnessed a bullet wound of a 5.56mm round through a thigh during my NS days. The hole it made was very small but the exit wound was so big that only a shell dressing and not a field dressing could help the soldier. Fortunately for the soldier, the round did not hit the bones otherwise really koyak.

My point? When the round enters the body it spins and tumbles inside and makes the wound ever worse than the diameter of the round.

Sine TS never responded to my questions, the recoil from a 7.62 mm round is so much stronger than the 5.56 mm round. After some time, your bloody shoulders will feel so sore and painful that you won't want to fire another round. When firing from the hips, due to the recoil, if you are not physically strong, the rifle will go every which way in all directions which will endanger your comrades. A 7.62 mm rifle will be much heavier than one that shoots 5.56 mm rounds, a fact any idiot should know.

 

[Windsor2012]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

It is heavier, but you kill the terrorist in one shot. so you carry less, but train to shoot properly and shoot only when necessary.
what is the problem? It is the training of the soldier that matter.

You mean a 5.56 mm will not kill you with one shot too? You also mean you don't train soldiers when using 5.56 mm but only when they use 7.62? Tell me you are happy to use full armour kits when you are moving in a hot and humid jungle. You will die faster not being able to be nimble and quick. Why do you think in our region soldiers wear fatigue caps and not a helmet? Can you see properly when you are perspiring and sweat go into your eyes when you are feeling so hot? Have you been in a combat unit before?

If our enemy are not blood thirty animal , sure we can still to 5.56mm and eco bullet like the brits.
No, since we are surrounded by terrorist, we need lead bullet with full metal jacket and we need 7.62 NATO.

True the russian AK-47 uses a shorter and lighter ammo, but to prevent too much logistical problem, let keep to a well used and well known ammo.

If it is for me, we should use the NAZI 7.62mm bullet, the one from their MG42, to shoot them, unfortunately such assault rifles does not exists.

Why are you repeating this nonsense about being surrounded by terrorists?

Some chin cannot throw grenade, kick him out too. One twit can result in the death of whole platoon.

Don't make silly remarks like a primary school kid.

These are combat experience from soldier fighting in the war, better than any official documents.

These are the results of studies about the lethality of the 5.56 mm.

"Soldiers are top priority within NATO and the soldier’s primary weapon is his rifle. To use it effectively he must be well trained for any possible encounter with the enemy and it is very important that he “trains as he fights.” In his final training there must be pop up and moving targets at unknown distances. He must be under stress and be able to respond immediately. There has been small arms lethality discussions within NATO for several years, but to clarify things once and for all a NATO Workshop on Small Arms Lethality was hosted by the United Kingdom in February 2009 at their Defence Academy in Shrivenham. The conclusion was that shot placement is the most important parameter, and that this is achieved through good and realistic training.

There are two major problems with current and future soldier systems: weight and power supply. Individual soldiers can in operations carry 60 kg (132 lbs). This includes weapon, ammo, body armor, water, etc.

One quite often reads and hears of the benefits of 7.62mm over 5.56mm. The truth is, however, most of the time the opposite. The benefits of 5.56mm over 7.62mm are:

Equal lethality against unprotected enemies.
Half the mass (12g – 24g).
Half the volume.
Reduced recoil and signature (noise and flash) that allows for a faster second shot.
Better penetration in thin metal plates.
Flatter trajectory and shorter time of flight out to 700m.
Lighter weapons.
Higher hit probability.

The last bullet point refers to that the soldier is not afraid of the recoil and noise, and can concentrate on his stance, weapon control, aiming and trigger pull. Several nations have reported this when they changed from 7.62mm caliber to 5.56mm."

 

[singveld]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

stop using red, i dun bother to edit them, a lot of work.

if you read the article again, you will know they face a new enemy, and they need more stopping power.

5.56mm in head shot is great, but not everyone is so accurate.
chances are more will land on the body, and 7.62 will deliver the stopping power, and 5.56 does not

if the people in middle east with temp of 50C can wear body armor, i dun see why we cannot wear, it is to save our soldier life.

yes we are surrounded by terrorists. It is a true plain to see. Why are we spending so much on military?

stop copy and pasting document you do not understand,
i have a feeling you do not know the meaning of stopping power.
putting in red, does not mean you understand them at all.

 

[Windsor2012]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

stop using red, i dun bother to edit them, a lot of work.

if you read the article again, you will know they face a new enemy, and they need more stopping power.

ok so red won't do can use blue? Now who are they and what new enemy? Are their enemy also ours? Why are those enemy of theirs our enemy? Are they the same ones which you say are surrounding us?

5.56mm in head shot is great, but not everyone is so accurate.
chances are more will land on the body, and 7.62 will deliver the stopping power, and 5.56 does not

if the people in middle east with temp of 50C can wear body armor, i dun see why we cannot wear, it is to save our soldier life.

yes we are surrounded by terrorists. It is a true plain to see. Why are we spending so much on military?

You ask me to read your post but are you reading mine? You accuse me of copy/paste but your own post is also copy/paste which you don't understand. You also don't answer my questions. Have you been in a combat unit before? Fired a gun? Been trained in a jungle?

I have so I know what I am talking about. Do you?

Don't you know the difference of temperatures in low and high humidity? What do you know about wet bulb temperatures and dew point?

Where are these terrorists surrounding Singapore? Name these terrorists and which countries they are from. Don't be shy.

stop copy and pasting document you do not understand,
i have a feeling you do not know the meaning of stopping power.
putting in red, does not mean you understand them at all.

So only you understand the documents you copy/paste? I understand your command of English is pretty bad, so are you sure you understand? The reason for the red colour is to differentiate between your post and my response.

 

[eatshitndie]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

i've carried gpmg and full boxes of gpmg 7.62mm rounds in weeklong field exercises and cursed that angmo were better built with heavy bones and bigger muscles to carry the beast and its bullets. compared to sbo's loaded with 5.56mm rounds, lucky for sinkie nsmen they don't have to carry full body packs of 7.62mm rounds. ns for wayang only. no need for vast majority of ah boy wayang kulit puppeteers to carry a real man's load.

 

[Windsor2012]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

i've carried gpmg and full boxes of gpmg 7.62mm rounds in weeklong field exercises and cursed that angmo were better built with heavy bones and bigger muscles to carry the beast and its bullets. compared to sbo's loaded with 5.56mm rounds, lucky for sinkie nsmen they don't have to carry full body packs of 7.62mm rounds. ns for wayang only. no need for vast majority of ah boy wayang kulit puppeteers to carry a real man's load.

Did that too during live firing exercises and fired the SLR before which uses the 7.62 mm. The slap from the rifle butt can break one's jaw. As for the GPMG, without the tripod, it will be hard for us to aim and fire accurately.

 

[Windsor2012]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

you saw 5.56mm wound on a soldier in your NS days?
the hole at the back is big, so what?
did he die instantly?
who care if bullet tumble and create a big hole, did he or did he not die instantly

that is the whole debate about using 7.62 NATO to kill terrorist, we want to kill them outright. It is the right tool or the right enemy.

Of course he did not die as the wound is at his thigh. He would however died from loss of blood and trauma if not treated immediately.

You said who cares if it spins and tumbles in the body? Seriously, you think you can survive if it hits your lungs or stomach?

You mean a 7.62 mm will kill someone if it hits his thigh too? Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[eatshitndie]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

Did that too during live firing exercises and fired the SLR before which uses the 7.62 mm. The slap from the rifle butt can break one's jaw. As for the GPMG, without the tripod, it will be hard for us to aim and fire accurately.

it takes one with real experience of weapons handling to understand the optimum caliber for the average build of a soldier. sinkie average build obviously smaller and weaker. however, vietnamese were able to fight a war of attrition despite carrying larger caliber, but they were using asymmetric strategy and tactics. if viets were equipped with 5.56, would still win due to american lack of political will. for sinkie ns wayangs, the 5.56 will do. don't need gung ho 7.62.

 

[Windsor2012]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

it takes one with real experience of weapons handling to understand the optimum caliber for the average build of a soldier. sinkie average build obviously smaller and weaker. however, vietnamese were able to fight a war of attrition despite carrying larger caliber, but they were using asymmetric strategy and tactics. if viets were equipped with 5.56, would still win due to american lack of political will. for sinkie ns wayangs, the 5.56 will do. don't need gung ho 7.62.

That was why I did ask TS if he had been in a combat unit. It appears he is not replying which means he has no idea at all. We who have done it, experienced the hardships and the pain, knows that during training, we wished we could throw our weapons away if possible to lighten our load. What more, carry an even heavier one with heavy ammo? He even said we should have more body armour. I was sweating like a pig in our humid atmosphere, clothes literally drenched with perspiration and he suggest we wear thicker and more uncomfortable armour carrying a heavy weapon. Sheer madness if you ask me.

 

[eatshitndie]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

That was why I did ask TS if he had been in a combat unit. It appears he is not replying which means he has no idea at all. We who have done it, experienced the hardships and the pain, knows that during training, we wished we could throw our weapons away if possible to lighten our load. What more, carry an even heavier one with heavy ammo? He even said we should have more body armour. I was sweating like a pig in our humid atmosphere, clothes literally drenched with perspiration and he suggest we wear thicker and more uncomfortable armour carrying a heavy weapon. Sheer madness if you ask me.

next thing ask for motorized exo-skeleton with fuel cell pack that can last for 6 weeks without recharging. better still. full armored suit with jet boosters, so one can hover over battle like a valkyrie or screaming banshee. must have air con.

 

[vamjok]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

rubbish, 5.56 can kill anyone with a single body shot. You might not die immediately, but you will not be able to survive it.

I have witness using M16, at the range of 100m, a concrete block that is used to build our hdb being blast apart, what rubbish are you talking here.

 

[singveld]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

yes i am in combat unit, yes i train in jungle

and i doubt you ever experience 50C. I have.
please if you have, you will not spreak with ignorance here.
I take high humidity at 35 , any time.

stop talking about wound and large hole ? I am talking about one thing, you talk another.
who are the ignorance one here, who is not reading?
I dun care how the wound will eventually kill, the article talking about stopping power.

do you know what is stopping power, i ask you several time already, you dun understand stopping power.
are you going to look on internet and copy and paste some article without understand it?

You are ignorance as usual. I do not want to go argue with you again and again in circle, i have better things to do, i rather discuss with someone with a brain.

 

[singveld]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

jesus another guy who dun understand stopping power, who care if the guy eventually die, stopping power , i am talking about stopping power, the article is talking about stopping power. They want the stopping power to take out the enemy immediately, not fatally wound him and he still able to shoot back.

Fxxking this forum is full of morons. Can someone with brain care to contribute.

rubbish, 5.56 can kill anyone with a single body shot. You might not die immediately, but you will not be able to survive it.

I have witness using M16, at the range of 100m, a concrete block that is used to build our hdb being blast apart, what rubbish are you talking here.

 

[singveld]

Re: 5.56mm ball is not enough for muslim terrorists, when will SAF change to 7.62mm b

next thing ask for motorized exo-skeleton with fuel cell pack that can last for 6 weeks without recharging. better still. full armored suit with jet boosters, so one can hover over battle like a valkyrie or screaming banshee. must have air con.

we have no such technology yet.