Serious "A dissident, a government critic"

gatehousethetinkertailor · Jun 1, 2016

This has to be one of the worse articles from Mothership - I am sure even Tharman would be chuckling because they are so obviously off the mark as he clearly was referencing his time in London with the proverbial public enemy number one:

http://mothership.sg/2016/05/dpm-th...lares-he-was-a-dissident-a-government-critic/

It's as if they could not resist waxing lyrical about the "coolness" factor of Tharman when the implications of what he was once upon a time is not obviously lost on those who suffered the crushing effects of causing dissent.

scroobal · Jun 1, 2016

When I saw the press report on what he said I thought that it was going to picked up by the pro-govt sociopolitical blog. I have no issue if these articles are carried as fillers but it will be good if they covered the other side of the fence as well. I think Tharman seemed to overreach himself when it comes to the definition of being a dissident. In those days in London Singapore students would readily accept an invitation to meet and even discuss with Tan Wah Piow. First there is a curiosity factor and the desire to know where he was coming from and then there is also the touristy element where you would like to tell your friends that you met with Wah Piow.

I guess Tharman was milking it as he was quiet as a mouse when he came back home.

When he was called into ISD, it is rather routine for all those whose names were mentioned by detainees to be called in. He was not only one. Heaps of people were also called and it is meant to be thorough and to glean as much information as possible.

It such a session when the Hank Hendriksen affair was uncovered unexpectedly.

Anyway, at least the bugger did not do a Teo Chee Hean and left it to the students to think what they would do.

gatehousethetinkertailor said:
This has to be one of the worse articles from Mothership - I am sure even Tharman would be chuckling because they are so obviously off the mark as he clearly was referencing his time in London with the proverbial public enemy number one:

http://mothership.sg/2016/05/dpm-th...lares-he-was-a-dissident-a-government-critic/

It's as if they could not resist waxing lyrical about the "coolness" factor of Tharman when the implications of what he was once upon a time is not obviously lost on those who suffered the crushing effects of causing dissent.

gatehousethetinkertailor · Jun 1, 2016

It's this convenient oversight of the overall narrative that exposes the gullibility of the electorate, past present and future. I remember you also mentioned that TWP conveniently functioned as a honeytrap then and continues to do so for new aspirants.

The heads-up on Function 8 is another example how well-meaning individuals can easily fall prey to the machinations of another game being played.

It had been claimed that a group of ex-detainees and dissidents that had been gathering in Malaysia around the time the Old Man was on his death bed in preparation - since he has passed I believe we have entered into a new chapter of an old storybook - there is much happening on the ground and self-martyrs like Roy and the fiendish Amos serve a purpose for those in the shadows. Perhaps they are also overreaching especially given the small island that we are as their presence is known and not gone un-noted.

I am sure Tharman was playing on the typical idealism of those gathered for the seminar - many have stood up and asked questions only to look back and shudder at their naivity when they grow up and have to hold down jobs and pay bills.

The term "dissident" is hackneyed and almost embarrassing in today's context when you have the Internet and social media apps like Facebook and Twitter at your disposal to push out perspectives. Plus you have anti rely new generation of voters who are cynical but complacent and would rather sell chai lattes than innovate. And they've grown up in what has been declared as the " lost decade" of Singapore where issue of identity have not been resolved yet been challenged and diluted further by new arrivals and converts.

Interesting times.

scroobal · Jun 1, 2016

Interesting times in indeed.

You seem to know what is going on. KL is now the centre for all these activist and one prominent ex-detainee has actually moved there. They have no idea the excellent relationship that Special Branch and ISD have.

And it it is shadows that we should be worried about. When Operations Spectrum was done and dusted, these detainees should have worked out who the authorities amongst those detained that they were actually after or more importantly who made use of them. Teo Soh Lung till this day has no clue.

Here is another example and recent as well. TOC is now their vehicle and Terry Xu and Howard Lee have no clue. When they took the $5,000 as donation from Monsoon Book Club which was founded by Tan Wah Piow did they not work out what is going on. Firstly it is not a commercial entity. It clearly shows on its website that it is a non-profit organisation and itself is asking for and dependent on donations. Did it not occur to them why MDA did not object first and wait for things to run its course.

And for Tan Wah Piow. He knows full well that the formation of a book club to advance their cause was central to why Operation Spectrum came into being. I would suggest that he was been mischievous when he formed it and then gave the money thru it but he does not realise the damage he has done to Terry and Howard who have no idea that they are part of the Wayang Kulit that is going. That money could have been given in hundreds of other ways.

gatehousethetinkertailor said:
It's this convenient oversight of the overall narrative that exposes the gullibility of the electorate, past present and future.

The heads-up on Function 8 is another example how well-meaning individuals can easily fall prey to the machinations of another game being played.

I was made aware that there was a group of ex-detainees and dissidents that had been gathering in Malaysia around the time the Old Man was on his death bed in preparation - since he has passed I believe we have entered into a new chapter of an old storybook - there is much happening on the ground and self-martyrs like Roy and the fiendish Amos serve a purpose for those in the shadows. Perhaps they are also overreaching especially given the small island that we are as their presence is known and not gone un-noted.

I am sure Tharman was playing on the typical idealism of those gathered for the seminar - many have stood up and asked questions only to look back and shudder at their naivity when they grow up and have to hold down jobs and pay bills.

The term "dissident" is hackneyed and almost embarrassing in today's context when you have the Internet and social media apps like Facebook and Twitter at your disposal to push out perspectives. Plus you have anti rely new generation of voters who are cynical but complacent and would rather sell chai lattes than innovate. And they've grown up in what has been declared as the " lost decade" of Singapore where issue of identity have not been resolved yet been challenged and diluted further by new arrivals and converts.

Interesting times.

scroobal · Jun 1, 2016

No bro, they were doing God's work and looking after the vulnerable and the exploited. They are true to their church and are exemplary individuals. It was also the time of Liberation Theology and may have got carried away slightly but in the main honest and transparent in what they were doing. They however were used and penetrated. I sure this lot realised eventually what was going on but maybe not the details. The Govt in the past would step when the Church or religious group gets into the social space and become too aggressive and this is done quietly by engaging the Church Hierarchy. The handling of the Carmelite Nun and the Nazareth Centre was done in this manner in the 70s.

Anyway, one of the ISD Officer who is a staunch catholic and whose relative is a man of the cloth of some seniority I understand helped to explain the issue.

azacamis said:
You mean Edgar de Souza, Joseph Ho, Patrick Goh and Guillaume Arotcarena?

Porfirio Rubirosa · Jun 1, 2016

The real people the government/ISD were after were never caught. Like the priests who left their idealistic naive flock to get 'eaten by the wolves', the sinister puppet masters behind OS remained in the shadows.

Btw i gather Harry actually gave Pope John Paul II a polite but stern warning that he was going to have to take serious action unless those priests and their flock stopped their antics and doings, when Harry met JP II at a private meeting when JPII visited Singapore in 85'. Unfortunately, nothing came of this and the rest as they say is history.

The church and in particular the late Archbishop Gregory Yong have a lot to answer for what happened to their hapless flock.

scroobal · Jun 1, 2016

It is usually the case. A couple of warnings are always given. In 2012, Yong's successor Archbishop Nicholas Chia nearly fell into the same trap but was called to MHA to see Teo Chee Hean who was DPM and Minister for Home Affairs. He then withdrew from his involvement in a Function 8 event.

The guys in the Vatican has very little understanding as they have priests and church workers fighting oppression in many parts of the World and in some cases they have received good outcomes. Vatican probably thought it was the usual and ignored the warnings.

What I find bewildering and yet interesting is the continued desire by these people to use the Catholic Church even in 2012 and when Father Arotcarena published his book. I could understand when Chinese Middle School or the Unions were used or even in the Philippines where the whole country is Catholic and thus a powerful force. The only reason I can think of is that the Church has always been involved with the vulnerable, very open and welcoming with anyone who wants to help etc and therefore become an convenient target.

Porfirio Rubirosa said:
The real people the government/ISD were after were never caught. Like the priests who left their idealistic naive flock to get 'eaten by the wolves', the sinister puppet masters behind OS remained in the shadows.

Btw i gather Harry actually gave Pope John Paul II a polite but stern warning that he was going to have to take serious action unless those priests and their flock stopped their antics and doings, when Harry met JP II at a private meeting when JPII visited Singapore in 85'. Unfortunately, nothing came of this and the rest as they say is history.

The church and in particular the late Archbishop Gregory Yong have a lot to answer for what happened to their hapless flock.

gatehousethetinkertailor · Jun 1, 2016

Religion, and in this case the institution of Catholicism is the perfect tool - in this day and age, coupled with the social mobility of its adherents and those coming in from the outside, the believers are aplenty.

The "new" churches probably feature as another prong that has grown tremendously in influence because of the financial and social standing of their flock. Notice how Joseph Prince has now "re-emerged"/"resurrected" his ministry following the debacle with Kong Hee.

Faith is often absolute for believers (of any mainstream religious denomination) but the credibiliy of these new preachers is questionable and the Catholic Church is a representative of the Lord's Annointed Temple. The Catholic Church still has missions of local preachers who spend time abroad and some have gone to Jerusalem and returned quite traumatised not only at the behaviour of soldiers against Palestinians, but also towards Christians. But the significance is the concept of injustice and how brutal oppression of the less fortunate can be because of race and/or faith. Scroo' mention of Dr Ang made me rethink the proximity of good deeds and the Church and the players that seem to keep turning up in one guise or another (not suggesting that Dr Ang is anyway part of anything unsavoury).

As a side note, i am quite sure these missionary priests scoff at the likes of Joseph Prince standing on the steps at Jerusalem and proclaiming how the Kingdom is so great. Imagine the sermon on mount with the thickest Singkie/Malaysian accent.

It's the category of followers and church attendees that provides a much greater shield and probably the best Trojan front. In those circles I sense there are stirrings of displeasure at the direction of the country and the encroachment of parachuted yes-men. I've heard rumblings that the credibility of the new leaders of men is severely chastised and there is growing unease at who the ultimate successor for PM will be. Tharman is probably favoured but for obvious reasons cannot be the one.

So whatever shadowy elements may exist the sense remains that they will try and couple their agenda onto the wider sentiment that has grown amongst the faithful. There appear to be much more layered plans/agendas and the 2011 bad showing gave impetuous to the possibility of blindsighting the establishment because of overconfidence and apathy as serious issues that had hitherto been neglected were bandaged but not treated not acknowledged for their shortcomings.

Ultimately it's not the vulnerability of the Church but the flock - once they are turned then the direction can come from within as the believers will believe. It's a dangerous play given the delicate nature of inter-race cohesion and with the growth of Islamic fundamentalism in Malaysia and Indonesia there may be a reliance on that as a diversion from their groundswell.

scroobal · Jun 1, 2016

The separation of religion and politics in Singapore is made very clear to all religious leaders. The New Churches do not have one leader representative in the formal council and they are immediately give a sharp rap when they deviate. As Lawrence Khong found out. The New Churches' agenda is money and not politics so they are pretty much safe and they in fact are actually told to vote PAP more because some of the Admin Service have joined them.

But do agree on your views about the attraction of the Catholic Church.

The one religion that the authorities have down pat is Islam. For obvious reasons, this is priority one from Independence. Even Malaysia realise the dangers of Islam being hijacked by deviants. It was not a surprise that both Malaysia and Singapore were ahead of the rest of the World when it came to AL Qaeda and now ISIS. Mahathir was famous for taking care of muslim deviants.

My understanding is that the Catholic Church leaders are now aware and very careful. But the faith has to be applauded. The are likely to step forward when something is not right. I was once told by someone senior that if an individual remains strong and firm when facing adversity of the state kind and is a Chinese , that person is likely to be born a Catholic. I find that interesting and true.

gatehousethetinkertailor said:
Religion, and in this case the institution of Catholicism is the perfect tool - in this day and age, coupled with the social mobility of its adherents and those coming in from the outside, the believers are aplenty.

The "new" churches probably feature as another prong that has grown tremendously in influence because of the financial and social standing of their flock. Notice how Joseph Prince has now "re-emerged"/"resurrected" his ministry following the debacle with Kong Hee.

Faith is often absolute for believers (of any mainstream religious denomination) but the credibiliy of these new preachers is questionable and the Catholic Church is a representative of the Lord's Annointed Temple. The Catholic Church still has missions of local preachers who spend time abroad and some have gone to Jerusalem and returned quite traumatised not only at the behaviour of soldiers against Palestinians, but also towards Christians. But the significance is the concept of injustice and how brutal oppression of the less fortunate can be because of race and/or faith. Scroo' mention of Dr Ang made me rethink the proximity of good deeds and the Church and the players that seem to keep turning up in one guise or another (not suggesting that Dr Ang is anyway part of anything unsavoury).

As a side note, i am quite sure these missionary priests scoff at the likes of Joseph Prince standing on the steps at Jerusalem and proclaiming how the Kingdom is so great. Imagine the sermon on mount with the thickest Singkie/Malaysian accent.

It's the category of followers and church attendees that provides a much greater shield and probably the best Trojan front. In those circles I sense there are stirrings of displeasure at the direction of the country and the encroachment of parachuted yes-men. I've heard rumblings that the credibility of the new leaders of men is severely chastised and there is growing unease at who the ultimate successor for PM will be. Tharman is probably favoured but for obvious reasons cannot be the one.

So whatever shadowy elements may exist the sense remains that they will try and couple their agenda onto the wider sentiment that has grown amongst the faithful. There appear to be much more layered plans/agendas and the 2011 bad showing gave impetuous to the possibility of blindsighting the establishment because of overconfidence and apathy as serious issues that had hitherto been neglected were bandaged but not treated not acknowledged for their shortcomings.

Ultimately it's not the vulnerability of the Church but the flock - once they are turned then the direction can come from within as the believers will believe. It's a dangerous play given the delicate nature of inter-race cohesion and with the growth of Islamic fundamentalism in Malaysia and Indonesia there may be a reliance on that as a diversion from their groundswell.

aurvandil · Jun 2, 2016

Liberation Theology is not biblical. When a country rejects God, God has often raises up evil, sinful leaders to punish the nation. In the context of Singapore, the main religion of most Singaporeans (many Christians included) is idol worship of the SELF. Many Singaporeans love themselves more than others; they don't care how others suffer as long as they and their families benefit. For this reason, it is therefore fitting that Singapore is ruled by the PAP. The evil sinful people who are used by God to punish nations are however not exempt from God's judgement. Look at the Old Man and how he died. For all his power and glory when he was young, look at how he was reduced to begging his daughter to bring him to a jurisdiction where euthanasia was legal. Contrast this to the death of JBJ. Who do you think was at peace when he died?

scroobal said:
No bro, they were doing God's work and looking after the vulnerable and the exploited. They are true to their church and are exemplary individuals. It was also the time of Liberation Theology and may have got carried away slightly but in the main honest and transparent in what they were doing.

Serious "A dissident, a government critic"

gatehousethetinkertailor

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scroobal

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gatehousethetinkertailor

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scroobal

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scroobal

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Porfirio Rubirosa

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scroobal

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