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LTK on the impossibility of unity

cheekenpie

Alfrescian
Loyal
SDP at least realized in the end that what matters is what the people want.
Obviously RP and SDA don't.

Ah but what qualifies as people? If one idiot in PE tell Desmond he like him, does that qualify as people? Or must be majority of constituents?

So if PAP won with majority, the people love PAP?

Each party represents their own people. So all have a right.
 

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
It really up to the rest of opposition parties to decide how our political system evolve. At the way thing goes, they deserve to be replace by WP and I don't think most people will have sympathy on them.

Ironically, a strong showing by WP (>45%) in the BE will push the other opposition parties in the direction of a loose alliance sooner. Which is not a bad development for opposition politics.
 

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
And the alliance will contest Aljunied and Hougang.

Ironically, a strong showing by WP (>45%) in the BE will push the other opposition parties in the direction of a loose alliance sooner. Which is not a bad development for opposition politics.
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
Ironically, a strong showing by WP (>45%) in the BE will push the other opposition parties in the direction of a loose alliance sooner. Which is not a bad development for opposition politics.

Why wait? They can just join SDA.
 

yellowarse

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Why wait? They can just join SDA.

The reality of a strong and expanding WP has to set in before some of the egos can agree to work together.

Thinking of a Pakatan Rakyat-style alliance where constituent parties remain autonomous but share resources and manpower while avoiding head-on fights.
 

cheekenpie

Alfrescian
Loyal
Ironically, a strong showing by WP (>45%) in the BE will push the other opposition parties in the direction of a loose alliance sooner. Which is not a bad development for opposition politics.

I think they will just hate WP even more. And WP will all the more think they can walk their own path. Only of PAP take 60% (impossible) then alliances will make sense to wp
 

3_M

Alfrescian
Loyal
The reality of a strong and expanding WP has to set in before some of the egos can agree to work together.

Thinking of a Pakatan Rakyat-style alliance where constituent parties remain autonomous but share resources and manpower while avoiding head-on fights.

if a dominant PAP doesn't motivate them to join hands, I doubt they will do so because of the rise of WP. In any case, I don't think an alliance is the best answer to this.
 
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TuaGow

Alfrescian
Loyal
ltk is simply telling the truth that sinkie prefer wp more than other opposition parties. they are just riding on wp coat tail which is very unfair to wp after all their hardwork.
 

jixiaolan

Alfrescian
Loyal
LTK/WP need to learn a lesson and pay a dear price. Can only expect more multi-corner fights especially in BE because the smaller parties have nothing to lose except for the deposits.
 

OverTheCounter

Alfrescian (InfP)
Generous Asset
The reality of a strong and expanding WP has to set in before some of the egos can agree to work together.

Thinking of a Pakatan Rakyat-style alliance where constituent parties remain autonomous but share resources and manpower while avoiding head-on fights.


Forget it. SDA, RP, SDP, SPP working together is almost as impossible as WP working with them. The only thing that should be discussed between these parties is electoral horse trading to avoid 3CFs amongst themselves. Whether there will be 3CF with WP is beyond their control and therefore not in the scope of discussion. Just agree not to fight each other, that's enough.

Each party should concentrate on growing itself and start walking the ground intensively. Only a strong ground presence will discourage WP from engaging you in a 3CF. If you wait until 2016 before you get off your butt, you are only inviting WP to come in and challenge you. Walking the ground starts now.
 

wwabbit

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
Ironically, a strong showing by WP (>45%) in the BE will push the other opposition parties in the direction of a loose alliance sooner. Which is not a bad development for opposition politics.

What are these opposition parties you speak of that will form an alliance?

SDP - The people that kicked Mr Chiam See Tong out, undoing years of work getting then record 3 opposition MPs into parliament
NSP - Walked out of SDA, now led by the people that walked out of RP
SPP - Walked out of SDA, their leader was removed as SG from both SDP and SDA, half the party just walked out
RP - Demanded unacceptable conditions to join SDA, internal strifes led to half the members walking out
DPP - Led by the people that walked out of SPP
SDA - Refused to accept RP, walked out on by both SPP and NSP

I'm looking at a bunch of parties that have historically proven that they cannot work with each other. There is no way they can suddenly come back and work together again without some big unifying figure that all of them respect. And no, the son of JBJ doesn't qualify.
 

glockman

Old Fart
Asset
it basically means opposition parties are fucked in sg, and that includes wp. if it takes 30 years to get where he and the party is today, it will take a few more decades and his entire old age or possibly his trip to the grave before wp can secure a sizable presence

The world was a different place those days. The PAP was under an old leadership, the internet was non-existent or in its infancy, the populace was meek. In short, our climate was most unfavourable (even hostile) to the growth of opposition parties. But not today. Hence, the events in the past 30 years bear no resemblance to what will happen in the next 30 years. And I find comfort in that.
 

metalmickey

Alfrescian
Loyal
Yes, LTK has made it clear. You fight your battle, we fight ours. It's his prerogative to reject unity. So be it.

I guess any opposition alliance in future will have to be between non-WP opposition parties. 3CF (oppo alliance vs WP vs PAP) will likely become a fixture of the political landscape hence.

I raised the analogy of section live firing because in a way the soldiers are co-operating, and in a way they are not on the same ground as each other, and they are not in close communication. But they are fighting the same battle, and they are allies. There is some co-ordination, but not a tight one, going on.

I don't think that LTK totally wants to shut out the other opposition, or they want to go to war with each other. They will want to avoid 3CF with other parties, although whether they succeed is another matter. For once,in 2011, they have almost completely avoided three corner fights, and it is possible for that to continue. I'm not convinced that WP wants to cannibalise other parties yet, one Kallang Moulmein notwithstanding. He said "if the opposition parties were to unite, Singapore today would not have so many opposition parties". In a way he's saying that other opposition parties have a right to exist, but a tighter unity can only be achieved by a single party. If the parties want to work together so much, they might as well merge.

And if you listen closely to what he is saying, it isn't so much "I don't give a shit about you", but rather it is "if I can have opposition parties working together, why not. But given their track record, they will only drag me down."

Sorry, I don't consider intra-party unity a form of opposition unity. It is a given that any organization, party or company needs unity to remain intact and grow. Every party leader naturally works hard for intra-party unity, has to. Are they all then proponents of 'opposition unity'?

Saying intra-party unity is opposition unity is like saying national unity is the same as family unity, that if you're for a united family, you're for national unity. Plain fallacy.

Opposition unity must have both components. If parties are not internally united, and all the opposition chiefs agree to have “opposition unity”, do you think it is possible? Factions can form between parties, they can form within parties, it doesn’t really matter. Factions are factions, unity is unity. Why is everybody making a big deal about whether the SDP is getting along with the WP, rather than making a big deal about why the SDA is not getting along with RP? Isn't this supposed to be a big issue since 1.) SDA and RP almost had a formal alliance and 2.) they are actually competing against each other for Punggol East? Everybody is talking about opposition unity with respect to WP because they are the ones who are unified internally, and the only ones who probably know how to make parties work together.

Well the PAP thinks that the family is a building block of society, and a part of national unity. Whether you think that interparty unity and intraparty unity are the same as each other is a matter of naming convention. But to me they are extremely similar. There are differences, because intraparty unity is supposed to be stronger, and unlike interparty unity, it matters that you have the same ideology. In a sense LTK alludes to this when he says that there can only be true unity when you agree. But even then, similarity in ideology is not even the most important thing. The most important thing is, "how much are you willing to biah for me, and how much am I willing to biah for you."

Anyway LTK is the only one with a proven track record in getting people to work together. He's the only one that I trust knows what he's saying when the talks about opposition unity. The other opposition parties should watch and learn from LTK's example of how to unite the factions of his party. If they can do that then LTK would have contributed more to "opposition unity" than anybody else.
 

Tualan

Alfrescian
Loyal
CSJ always want to be leader of all. He still very highly of himself. He was kaput as someone ever said.
 

metalmickey

Alfrescian
Loyal
if it takes 30 years to get where he and the party is today, it will take a few more decades and his entire old age or possibly his trip to the grave before wp can secure a sizable presence, you can forget majority, in parliament. i have pointed out that party politics in sg is patriarchal, and if low goes, so does the present era and soul of the party. a wp without low will be a very different party altogether. same can be said of pap when old fart farts his last.

I think that you have to understand the meaning of "watershed" when the word is applied to the 2011 elections. It means that something fundamentally deep has changed, that some boundary has been crossed. We only swung 6%, whereas the difference between 2001 and 2006 is 9%. In 10 years, 15%. What happens if we see another 15% in the 10 years after that? This is a bit like global warming. It took maybe 200 years to raise the temperature of the earth by 1-2 degrees. But in another 50 years, we will see another rise of 4 degrees. The change could accelerate.

Basically there are two issues that are separate and they have to be answered separately. First question is, can they grab power within the next 20 years? My answer is yes, it is possible. Second question is, are they ready to run Singapore within the next 20 years? My answer is no, it will be very hard. They will be like those football teams who get promoted to the premier league one season and get relegated the next season.

The PAP has already changed dramatically. The PAP of the 90s and 00s is so different from the 60s and 70s. But there are other things that don't change about the PAP, like how it is so tightly controlled. The party unity hasn't totally unravelled, and I think, when WP learns some discipline, there will be a Sylvia Lim or Pritam Singh or Chen Show Mao to make sure things run the way that they used to.

LKY dying isn't going to change things very much. I don't believe anybody who says that a 90 year old man can have that great an influence on the PAP or Singapore. He ceased to matter once he left the cabinet 2 years ago.
 
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metalmickey

Alfrescian
Loyal
SDP at least realized in the end that what matters is what the people want.
Obviously RP and SDA don't.

SDP pulled out because they realised that they wouldn't get a lot of votes. In a sense that is "what the people want".

But the main reason why they pulled out was to avoid getting destroyed.
 

Fook Seng

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
it basically means opposition parties are fucked in sg, and that includes wp. if it takes 30 years to get where he and the party is today, it will take a few more decades and his entire old age or possibly his trip to the grave before wp can secure a sizable presence, you can forget majority, in parliament. i have pointed out that party politics in sg is patriarchal, and if low goes, so does the present era and soul of the party. a wp without low will be a very different party altogether. same can be said of pap when old fart farts his last.

I think you interpolate incorrectly. Low never ever said here or elsewhere that if he goes, WP will go. In fact. he did mention elsewhere that the realistic target for an alternative government cannot be 2016 and more like 2026 or later, implying that in which case, he would probably be too old to lead.

His actions seem to support a long term strategy of developing a second generation of younger leaders like Pritam Singh, GG, YY etc (much of the parliamentary questionings are from this younger team). Older leaders like himself and CSM and to a lesser extent Sylvia are likely to be just revolutionary leaders or at most seat-warmers in any future government.

Compare this to LHL's plan. He intends to stay in power for another 10 years. For what? Stay in power as PM and as party leader are two different things.

I was curious what Sylvia Lim meant in her remark on AIM at the 2nd rally that by taking over the Town Council at Aljunied, many past contracts and financial dealings were open to her scrutiny. Is it for this same need to avoid scrutiny that the ruling party is so obsessed with the holding on to power? We don't really know unless a transfer of power actually takes place.
 
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