Chinese AVIC Top Head admits Poor Quality of Jet Engine

[GoFlyKiteNow]

Chinese AVIC Top Head admits the Poor Quality of Jet Engine

(China Defense Mashup Reporting by Johnathan Weng)

Mr. Lin Zuoming, the top head of ACIC (Aviation Industry Corporation of China), has to admit that China’s “Taihang” WS-10 Turbofan Engine is still unsatisfactory in its quality.

In one of his opening letters, he says that the military aircraft engine production has been the “chronic illness” in Chinese aviation industry and he urges that the solving of “Taihang” WS-10 Turbofan engine is the key step to reinforce the Quality Control Procedure in AVIC.

Now PLA Air Force has install some WS-10 engine on its J-11B dual-engine heavy fighters for evaluation. But the result is not positive.

Some resources report that the quality of WS-10 engine is terrible and PLA Air Force has begun to lose patience in purchasing more WS-10 engines.

Taihang Turbofan Engine Displayed in Zhuhai Airshow 2008

In early March 2009, One Chinese PLA Air Force Pilot successfully made a forced landing of one J-10 fighter due to the air shut-down of AL-31F engine.

As a single engine fighter, the J-10 aircraft is very dangerous when power system is in trouble.

As a result, PLA Air Force, knowing the stability of Russian engines just imported AL-31F engines before the finish of WS-10 development.

The fact shows that the WS-10 engine just looks advanced, but it is no comparison to the stable Russian AL-31F engines.

PLA Air Force warns that the aviation engines has been the killing shortages of its J-10 and J-11 fleets.

No combat aircraft after all can fight without reliable engines, he said.
.

 

[longbow]

They know that they have lousy engines and they annouced it. Kudos to them for that. They say that the first thing at Alcoholic Anon is to admit that you have a problem.

Why do you think they are in such a hurry to implement their new commercial jet project? There are few countries that can build a jet engine. This is sophisticated technology.

That is why they are pumping in billions to lure the big guns into the country for JV. Like a big puzzle, it is a matter of time before they get the knowhow both in terms of QC, testing, how to assemble. With the warchest in $$$ that they have it is a matter of time. After all Boeing, Airbus, GE are all public companies and shareholders want their good ROI.

 

[Highfalutin]

I believe Sun Tzu of "The Art of War" fame is Chinese?

 

[Leongsam]

If it's designed and made in China, I'll stay well away from it.

 

[KennyMGM]

It is a weapon by itself !

 

[longbow]

Good one! Or the engine can shut down and go into stealth mode.

Anyway Chinese are in JV with GE to build its latest series of jet engines. Not talking about some 20 year old design. This is GE's latest engine with good fuel economy and noise output. Engine will be built in JV plant in China to power the new Chinese made jet to be ready in 2016.

I suspect that within 3 years the WS-10 engine will become pretty good ;-)

Tuesday, December 22, 2009

LEAP-X1C for COMAC C919By Joy Finnegan/Editor-in-Chief, Rotor & Wing magazine
The Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (COMAC) and CFM International say the new LEAP-X1C engine has been selected as the sole western powerplant for the new C919 single-aisle aircraft scheduled to enter commercial service in 2016.

CFM is a 50/50 joint company between Snecma (SAFRAN Group) and GE. In 2008, the two companies renewed the partnership to the year 2040.

COMAC has forecasted a global market for more than 2,000 C919 aircraft during the 20 years following entry into service.

COMAC has opted for a complete Integrated Propulsion System (IPS) for the C919. CFM will provide the engine, provisionally called the LEAP-X1C, and, in partnership with Nexcelle, will provide the nacelle and thrust reverser to deliver a complete IPS solution to COMAC. Nexcelle is a 50/50 joint venture between GE’s Middle River Aircraft Systems and SAFRAN Group’s Aircelle the two companies launched in 2008.

“The leading-edge technology incorporated in the engine, coupled with all of the benefits of a completely integrated propulsion system, will enable us to build a very competitive airplane for the global market,” said Zhang Qingwei, chairman of COMAC.

“This agreement is the next logical step in what has been a tremendously successful collaboration between CFM, the Chinese aviation industry, and our Chinese airline customers. said Eric Bachelet, president and CEO of CFM International in reference to CFM’s 25-year relationship with COMAC.

LEAP-X, launched in 2008, is a new centerline engine and the development program has been progressing since it was launched in mid-2008. The first core in the development program, eCore 1, successfully completed the first phase of testing earlier this year. The second phase of testing will begin in early 2010.

CFM has also been testing the revolutionary 3-D Woven Resin Transfer Molding (RTM) composite fan and case. The LEAP-X fan will feature 18 blades, a 50 percent reduction versus the CFM56-5C and 25 percent fewer blades than the CFM56-7B.

Joy Finnegan served as editor-in-chief of Aviation Maintenance magazine starting in November 2006, after serving as its managing editor. She is now editor-in-chief of Rotor & Wing.

It is a weapon by itself !

 

[GoFlyKiteNow]

I suspect that within 3 years the WS-10 engine will become pretty good ;-)

Tuesday, December 22, 2009

LEAP-X1C for COMAC C919By Joy Finnegan/Editor-in-Chief, Rotor & Wing magazine
The Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (COMAC) and CFM International say the new LEAP-X1C engine has been selected as the sole western powerplant for the new C919 single-aisle aircraft scheduled to enter commercial service in 2016.

CFM is a 50/50 joint company between Snecma (SAFRAN Group) and GE. In 2008, the two companies renewed the partnership to the year 2040.

COMAC has forecasted a global market for more than 2,000 C919 aircraft during the 20 years following entry into service.

COMAC has opted for a complete Integrated Propulsion System (IPS) for the C919. CFM will provide the engine, provisionally called the LEAP-X1C, and, in partnership with Nexcelle, will provide the nacelle and thrust reverser to deliver a complete IPS solution to COMAC. Nexcelle is a 50/50 joint venture between GE’s Middle River Aircraft Systems and SAFRAN Group’s Aircelle the two companies launched in 2008.

“The leading-edge technology incorporated in the engine, coupled with all of the benefits of a completely integrated propulsion system, will enable us to build a very competitive airplane for the global market,” said Zhang Qingwei, chairman of COMAC.

“This agreement is the next logical step in what has been a tremendously successful collaboration between CFM, the Chinese aviation industry, and our Chinese airline customers. said Eric Bachelet, president and CEO of CFM International in reference to CFM’s 25-year relationship with COMAC.

LEAP-X, launched in 2008, is a new centerline engine and the development program has been progressing since it was launched in mid-2008. The first core in the development program, eCore 1, successfully completed the first phase of testing earlier this year. The second phase of testing will begin in early 2010.

CFM has also been testing the revolutionary 3-D Woven Resin Transfer Molding (RTM) composite fan and case. The LEAP-X fan will feature 18 blades, a 50 percent reduction versus the CFM56-5C and 25 percent fewer blades than the CFM56-7B.

CFM will supply the whole engine to COMAC for direct fit onto the aircraft. No technical collaboration, know how transfer or even sub-assembly manufacturing offered. See the part highlighted in blue. Good deal for CFM.

Secondly, this is a commercial aircraft engine. Not to be confused with military aircraft engine, which is another technology domain by itself. I dont know how it ( this deal) will enhance the quality of the WS-10.

 

[singveld]

If it's designed and made in China, I'll stay well away from it.

it is their modern fighter. therefore only their elite fighter pilot can fly it. or die in it.

 

[longbow]

Errr GFK then what does this news release mean??

It is so very obvious - In Dec 2009, China decides on this GE engine for their new plane (many were in the bidding process including Pratt, RR), a few days later they annouce setting up assembly plant.

I think no need Phd to conclude that Chinese said, I chose your engine you assemble it here. As for the degree of technology transfer, well I think if they start assembling the Chinese will learn. Kind of like a good dish - you could reverse engineer and find out the ingredients but the key to the dish is how and timing of chef putting in ingredients. With assembly, you get to see how they out the engine together and after that how it is tested. I think lots to learn in terms of the process which can be applied to military jet engines.

Also as they continue to assemble the engine, more and more of the supply chain will move to China. Makes business sense since the end user is in China.

This engine uses advance materiels for the blades - actually it is a brand new GE engine.

CFM and ACAE sign MOU for LEAP-X1C assembly line In China

BEIJING--(BUSINESS WIRE)--CFM International (CFM) and AVIC Commercial Aircraft Engine Company (ACAE) have signed a Memorandum of Understanding to establish a world-class final assembly line and engine test facility to support the LEAP-X1C engine selected to power the new COMAC C919 150-passenger aircraft scheduled to enter commercial service in 2016.
COMAC, which announced the LEAP-X1C engine as the sole western powerplant to launch the C919, forecasts a global market for more than 2,000 aircraft over 20 years.

ACAE and CFM have established a working team to evaluate the scope and feasibility of a LEAP-X1C final engine assembly and test facility in China. This same team will formulate the business plan and develop the legal structure and operating agreement for the proposed joint venture.

Press release issued by CFM International Inc. on December 21, 2009

CFM will supply the whole engine to COMAC for direct fit onto the aircraft. No technical collaboration, know how transfer or even sub-assembly manufacturing offered. See the part highlighted in blue. Good deal for CFM.

Secondly, this is a commercial aircraft engine. Not to be confused with military aircraft engine, which is another technology domain by itself. I dont know how it ( this deal) will enhance the quality of the WS-10.

 

[longbow]

BTW, Airbus's only assembly plant outside EU is in China!! Same MO. Get them to assemble. Learn how to do it, get lots of Chinese expertise in assembly. In aircraft assembly, Chinese workers will be sent for training to get FAA type certification (world class know how). Know who all the parts suppliers are. Next approach parts supplier to relocate to China (give them a grant) then move down supply chain. Before you know it the Chinese have a couple of thousand FAA certified aviation engineers with a whole supply chain!!

Anyway, once you start making 4 A320 a month a lot of knowhow rubs off. After all there is a lot of teamwork, after work get togethers. Most of the mfg "secrets" are in the minds of these Airbus engineers and hey maybe even a few might go work on the COMAC project if they are offered enough $$$.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business...11-of-the-airliners-this-year-55578-25410087/

A factory which assembles Airbus jets in China has hit its production target of 11 of the airliners this year
Dec 17 2009 Daily Post

A FACTORY which assembles Airbus jets in China has hit its production target of 11 of the airliners this year.

The Airbus A320 Family Final Assembly Line China in Tianjin is the first Airbus final assembly line outside Europe - the other single-aisle aircraft final assembly lines are in Toulouse and Hamburg.

Some work carried out at Airbus’ wingmaking plant at Broughton, Flintshire, has been transferred to the Chinese site but the company has said that has not hit jobs at the Welsh site.

The first A320 assembled on the site was delivered to Sichuan Airlines in June this year and since then a total of six A320s and five A319s have been delivered and are now in operation with Sichuan Airlines, Deer Air, Shenzhen Airlines and China Eastern Airlines.

Production at Tianjin will be ramped up to four aircraft a month by the end of 2011. Broughton makes 34 A320 wing sets a month.

 

[GoFlyKiteNow]

BTW, Airbus's only assembly plant outside EU is in China!! Same MO. Get them to assemble. Learn how to do it, get lots of Chinese expertise in assembly.
Anyway, once you start making 4 A320 a month a lot of knowhow rubs off. After all there is a lot of teamwork, after work get togethers. Most of the mfg "secrets" are in the minds of these Airbus engineers and hey maybe even a few might go work on the COMAC project if they are offered enough $$$.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business...11-of-the-airliners-this-year-55578-25410087/

A factory which assembles Airbus jets in China has hit its production target of 11 of the airliners this year
Dec 17 2009 Daily Post

A FACTORY which assembles Airbus jets in China has hit its production target of 11 of the airliners this year.

The Airbus A320 Family Final Assembly Line China in Tianjin is the first Airbus final assembly line outside Europe - the other single-aisle aircraft final assembly lines are in Toulouse and Hamburg.

Some work carried out at Airbus’ wingmaking plant at Broughton, Flintshire, has been transferred to the Chinese site but the company has said that has not hit jobs at the Welsh site.

The first A320 assembled on the site was delivered to Sichuan Airlines in June this year and since then a total of six A320s and five A319s have been delivered and are now in operation with Sichuan Airlines, Deer Air, Shenzhen Airlines and China Eastern Airlines.

Production at Tianjin will be ramped up to four aircraft a month by the end of 2011. Broughton makes 34 A320 wing sets a month.

Airbus assy plant is for 320 under offset program.
It is common practice in aviation industry to offer offset programs
to countries that buy Airbus or Boeing aircraft.
Once the offset value is attained, the plant cease to function.
Any country can ask for it, if they find the program worth it to their
industrial expansion.

So what is there to learn ?.
Almost all the parts come from abroad.
Engines from CFM, GE or RR
Landing gear from US or UK
Avionics from Europe , USA
Doors from India
Control systems from Europe
Even the wheels come from UK.

End up with just assy work.

 

[Zombie]

So what is there to learn ?.
Almost all the parts come from abroad.
Engines from CFM, GE or RR
Landing gear from US or UK
Avionics from Europe , USA
Doors from India
Control systems from Europe
Even the wheels come from UK.

End up with just assy work.

Those secret agents don't have to snitch for military weapon secrets because nobody can learn from the stolen "parts".

 

[Papsmearer]

BTW, Airbus's only assembly plant outside EU is in China!! Same MO. Get them to assemble. Learn how to do it, get lots of Chinese expertise in assembly. In aircraft assembly, Chinese workers will be sent for training to get FAA type certification (world class know how). Know who all the parts suppliers are. Next approach parts supplier to relocate to China (give them a grant) then move down supply chain. Before you know it the Chinese have a couple of thousand FAA certified aviation engineers with a whole supply chain!!

Anyway, once you start making 4 A320 a month a lot of knowhow rubs off. After all there is a lot of teamwork, after work get togethers. Most of the mfg "secrets" are in the minds of these Airbus engineers and hey maybe even a few might go work on the COMAC project if they are offered enough $$$.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business...11-of-the-airliners-this-year-55578-25410087/

A factory which assembles Airbus jets in China has hit its production target of 11 of the airliners this year
Dec 17 2009 Daily Post

A FACTORY which assembles Airbus jets in China has hit its production target of 11 of the airliners this year.

The Airbus A320 Family Final Assembly Line China in Tianjin is the first Airbus final assembly line outside Europe - the other single-aisle aircraft final assembly lines are in Toulouse and Hamburg.

Some work carried out at Airbus’ wingmaking plant at Broughton, Flintshire, has been transferred to the Chinese site but the company has said that has not hit jobs at the Welsh site.

The first A320 assembled on the site was delivered to Sichuan Airlines in June this year and since then a total of six A320s and five A319s have been delivered and are now in operation with Sichuan Airlines, Deer Air, Shenzhen Airlines and China Eastern Airlines.

Production at Tianjin will be ramped up to four aircraft a month by the end of 2011. Broughton makes 34 A320 wing sets a month.

In my opinion, this is a market that should have been pioneered by Singapore. S'pore had experienced aircraft refurbishment, overhaul, and maintenance companies, such as Lockheed Air Services. These companies had developed a good reputation with the RSAF, and other airlines, and in terms of western aircraft knowledge, were far superior to any PRC companies in the 70s and 80s.

The problem was the short sightedness of SAE, and the S'pore govt. By putting the major aircraft companies under the SAE umbrella and making it a GLC, opportunities were lost that could otherwise have been identified with a more entreprenuerial company. In particular, in the 90s, several vulnerable but established aircraft makers were in trouble thru out the world, including Fokker, Douglas, Dornier. In my opinion, we missed an opportunity to purchase one of companies and shift production to Singapore. Douglas may not be allowed to be sold to Singapore by the US govt. due to its military related business, but certainly, the dutch govt. would have supported a buyout of Fokker. If FoKKer was bought by S'pore, we could be making a modernised version of their Fokker 100 in S'pore, and maybe even the Fokker 50. Both of which would have a strong market in SE Asia.

An alternative would be arrange license production with Boeing for their 717, which at that time was looking dicey and eventually is now shut down. With the deregulation of air travel in SE Asia, the market would have been huge for these aircraft. If such aircraft were to be build in S;pore, they would be millions of dollars cheaper per plane due to our lower labour costs, and such like factors, as well the sales would have been easier as the s'pore govt. would be able to provide sweetheart financing. It would create many good paying jobs in s'pore and provide S'pore with a technological edge in this region. Just making Silkair and Tiger buy S'pore made F100 or 717s would have recoup the cost of starting these production lines. Instead, these 2 idiot airlines are buying smaller Airbus models (in total, about 60 of them) for billions of dollars, all of which will go to some European workers and some other european country's economy.

In addition to forcing Silkair and Tiger to be customers, the S'pore govt. also indirectly own shares in Kingfisher Airlines. They can also purchase planes. WIth many Indonesia and Malaysian discount airlines starting business, I am sure any planes produced by SAE would have a competitive edge.If they bought Fokker, they could make the Fokker 50, which is are suitable for rougher airfields and for servicing smaller towns. Singapore has a much better reputation for technical quality than Chinese companies. If you can offer excellent service (due to your close location), good price, high quality, cheap financing, etc. I don't see how the plane can't find customers in Asia.

What is particularly galling too is why the PAP did not negotiate with Airbus for offset manufacturing in exchange for purchasing their planes. We could have at least build some wings, or fuselage or something. When u look at it in totality, the S'pore govt. indirectly thru Silkair, SIA, and Tiger is one of Airbus's biggest customers in the world.
Now, its too late, the Chinese are about to take it over.

 

[Papsmearer]

BTW, Airbus's only assembly plant outside EU is in China!! Same MO. Get them to assemble. Learn how to do it, get lots of Chinese expertise in assembly. In aircraft assembly, Chinese workers will be sent for training to get FAA type certification (world class know how). Know who all the parts suppliers are. Next approach parts supplier to relocate to China (give them a grant) then move down supply chain. Before you know it the Chinese have a couple of thousand FAA certified aviation engineers with a whole supply chain!!

Anyway, once you start making 4 A320 a month a lot of knowhow rubs off. After all there is a lot of teamwork, after work get togethers. Most of the mfg "secrets" are in the minds of these Airbus engineers and hey maybe even a few might go work on the COMAC project if they are offered enough $$$.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/business...11-of-the-airliners-this-year-55578-25410087/

A factory which assembles Airbus jets in China has hit its production target of 11 of the airliners this year
Dec 17 2009 Daily Post

A FACTORY which assembles Airbus jets in China has hit its production target of 11 of the airliners this year.

The Airbus A320 Family Final Assembly Line China in Tianjin is the first Airbus final assembly line outside Europe - the other single-aisle aircraft final assembly lines are in Toulouse and Hamburg.

Some work carried out at Airbus’ wingmaking plant at Broughton, Flintshire, has been transferred to the Chinese site but the company has said that has not hit jobs at the Welsh site.

The first A320 assembled on the site was delivered to Sichuan Airlines in June this year and since then a total of six A320s and five A319s have been delivered and are now in operation with Sichuan Airlines, Deer Air, Shenzhen Airlines and China Eastern Airlines.

Production at Tianjin will be ramped up to four aircraft a month by the end of 2011. Broughton makes 34 A320 wing sets a month.

Please, the jury is still out on a lot of Chinese aviation so called advances. On the issue of aircraft engines, well, this is going to be a long term problem with the Chinese. Jet enginese are not like TVs, or even cars. They are too sophisticated for the Chinese to master, especially the quality control portion. They have had the Rolls Royce Spey made under licence for years now, as the WS-9 Qinling. U would think that they would have developed the engine indurty much further by now. Even the RR Speys they made were suspect quality, I think they only made 500. The problem is u can only do so much for them. U can give them the blueprints, help them set up the factory, ship them the original engines for comparison etc. But in the end, they have to do it themsleves. And this is where they fuck up.

Lots of planes makers have tried to set up assembly plants in China before. McDonell Douglas failed with its MD-90s. from initial 40 orders, cut down to 2. Boeing wouldn't go near them with a 10 foot pole. The Airbus venture is now the second attempt to start an airframe making plant. So far, 11 planes assembled and sold to Chinese airlines means nothing to me. Will they pass certification in the US or Europe. More importantly, would u fly in a chinese build airline? I will pass.

Every one needs to chill out, the verdict is still out on the chinese commercial aviation industry.

 

[longbow]

But given the size of future potential order, looks like Airbus will be assemblying planes in China for many years to come. Meanwhile more and more work will start moving into China.

Here is an interesting article:

Airbus rides the Chinese dragon
In the time it takes to complete the paper work for planning permission in Britain, a factory in Tianjin has been built and is producing passenger jets.

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Tianjin, China
Published: 6:38PM BST 30 Jun 2009


An Airbus SAS A320 is rolled out of a hangar in Tianjin Photo: Bloomberg News Once a month, an Airbus A320 passenger jet rolls out of an airy hangar on the outskirts of northern port city of Tianjin, China's window to Western ideas for a century and a half.

Within two years these $72m (£43m) twin-engine jets will be emerging once a week. The number of French, German, British, and Spanish engineers "shadowing" the local work force will be down to a handful.


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Beijing Olympics: Football kicks off ahead of the Games opening ceremonyBy then production of identical models of the A320 workhorse will be tapering off slowly at the Airbus sister plants in Hamburg and Toulouse, starting with a cut from 36 to 34 this Autumn.

The Chinese engineers learn fast. This factory kicked off nine months ago, a nano-second in aviation time. It takes longer in Britain to complete the paper-work for planning permission.

"It's a miracle," said Lan Xinguo, head of Sichuan Airlines as he took delivery last week of the first Chinese A320 – splendidly adorned in red with dragons – to the sound of the Star Wars film track. "What's been done is beyond our imagination a few years ago."

Lawrence Barron, head of Airbus China, said Tianjin jets are geared to voracious demand from local airlines, at least – and here comes the kicker – "in the early years". There is no reason why an Indian, Australian, or European airline should not buy a Tianjin jet one day.

It is an odd arrangement. The Tianjin plant is a joint venture with China's Aviation Industry Corp (AVIC), the 430,000-strong speahead of China's drive to be an aeronautics superpower.

AVIC in turn holds a stake in the Commercial Aircraft Corp of China (COMAC) which has already launched its own Chinese-designed regional jet, the 90-seat ARJ-21. Under the Communist Party's 13th "Five-Year Plan", it now aims to challenge the West head on with a 180-seat jet.

"We believe after six to eight years development, our aircraft will over take Boeing and Airbus," said COMAC chairman Zhang Qinqwei last year.

Airbus is taking a big gamble. It is clearly sharing technology with an octopus-like network of state-led enterprises (some linked to the military) that openly boast rival ambitions. Yet it is a risk that Europe's planemaker believes it must take to win the aviation jackpot of the next twenty years, an estimated market for 2,800 big jets and 470 freighters worth $300bn. "There is no co-operaration without technology transfer," said Tom Enders, Airbus chief.

"We are protecting what matters most. And whatever happens, I have no doubt that a great and ambitious nation like China – that is already able to send men to space and bring them back home safely – is one day going to build its own aircraft anyway," he said.

Safeguarding secrets is not easy. The aging A320 dates back to the late 1980s, but China is also insisting on a 5pc share of the new A350 XWB. Chinese engineers are working on advanced composite materials in Beijing.

For now, Airbus in enjoying the downpayment on this deal – a cascade of fresh orders for 410 jets worth $36bn from China's aviation authority – although Boeing is pulling in Chinese orders too, and many are wide-body jets with a higher value.

The Americans are watching the Airbus venture uneasily from the sidelines. Boeing buys parts from Chinese suppliers but has stopped short of full assembly. But then the Americans have been burned before. McDonnel Douglas came awry on its venture building the MD-82 in Shanghai in the early 1990s, misjudging the shifting political currents in Beijing. Brazil's Embraer came to grief too.

Richard Aboulafia from Teal Group consultants said Airbus China risks the same fate. "The last efforts were disasters, so perhaps it's third time lucky. I think this is a fool's game. Anybody can assemble a jet and put their flag on it. The real value added is in the components," he said.

As yet, the Airbus work at Tianjin is final stage assembly, putting together the fuselage, wings, engines, tails, noses, and doors imported from Europe. "We're talking about 5pc to 10pc of the value added," said Maurice Chretien, a floor manager in Tianjin.

But the picture is changing fast. Rear passenger doors and the nose landing gear for the A320 family are made in Chengdu, emergency exit doors, wing ribs and edges in Shenyang, cargo doors in Shanghai, and wing boxes and brake blades in Shaanxi.

It is the Airbus "Wing Cooperation Agreement" with China that most worries workers at the UK wing plant at Broughton in North Wales. For the time being, Broughton is still "Big Brother". The Chinese parts are sent back to Wales for refinement – a costly way to do business. Under the next phase, the Chinese wing parts will never leave Asia. They will be equipped and tested in Tianjin instead.

Mr Enders is brutally honest. "The UK is the supplier of wings for the Airbus family but that doesn't mean the Chinese can't build a good wing. As long as the UK maintains competitive working conditions, Wales is OK," he said.

Airbus is coy about how much it pays staff in China. Mr Chretien says cheap labour is more myth than reality. "It is an illusion that you find well-qualified people for nothing in China. I have a laser tracker specialist who earns just 20pc less than his Toulouse colleague here to coach him. The cost advantage is thin," he said.

Airbus workers in Europe can be forgiven for harbouring doubts. The Chinese yuan is up to 50pc undervalued against the euro, and China is graduating 600,000 engineers each year. Unless something radical changes in the currency and trade structure of globalisation, Chinese labour will be very hard to beat for years to come.

Europe cannot buck history. China will strive to be an aeronautics powerhouse whatever Airbus does. By taking the plunge, the company can at least hope to lash its fortunes to the world's rising force for a quarter century. Take chances where you can.

 

[longbow]

They are even trying to learn how to make the wing. The way I read airbus President's point of view - Chinese will get the technology whether it comes from airbus or elsewhere. So might as well given them the technology for A320 (old technology) and at the same capture the business.

I am pretty sure Chinese are doing the same to all the parts suppliers - doing side deals with them.


Airbus fears China's aviation industry may soon challenge Britain's wing production
Airbus factories in China are rapidly mastering aircraft technology and may soon pose a direct challenge to Britain's niche industry of wing production, the European plane-maker has warned.

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Tianjin, China
Published: 7:20PM BST 23 Jun 2009

Thomas Enders, Airbus's president, said the Chinese are "very eager and very ambitious" and likely to catch up with Western levels of productivity at Airbus sites in China within two to three years.

"Right now the UK is the supplier of wings for the Airbus family but that doesn't mean the Chinese can't build a good wing," he told the Telegraph. "If we underestimate our Chinese friends, there will be a problem. Europe is not the only play in town.


The comments came as Airbus delivered its first "Made in China" A320 jet to local carrier Sichuan Airlines, a key moment for Asia's fast-rising aeronautics industry.

The Airbus plant in the port city of Tianjin – a replica of the A320 hangar in Hamburg – has cranked up at breathtaking speed since opening last September.

Tianjin is already producing one jet a month, which will rise to four by 2011 – chiefly aimed at voracious Chinese demand. A320 output in Europe will start declining this year. The shift to the East is striking.

The A320 is the popular workhorse of the Airbus stable. Components are mostly manufactured in Europe but Chinese plants are already producing the wing boxes and other wing parts, which are, for now, then shipped to Broughton for finishing.

The technology of the A320 is no longer cutting-edge. However, Airbus engineers in Beijing are already working on carbon-composite technology for the next-generation A350 XWB, creeping into an area once deemed the preserve of Airbus UK.
Airbus employs 13,000 people in the UK, but British influence over the company has waned since BAE Systems sold its 20pc share two years ago.

Mr Enders said the willingness of the British government to provide launch finance for the A350 is "critically important" to the way that Airbus views its commitment to Britain – although there is no explicit linkage.

He also noted that there had been silence from London over how it intends to proceed with the Airbus A400M military transport, a plane plagued by delays and weight problems. London has threatened to pull out of the project. "Our preference is to keep the UK on board. We need British industry's experience and knowledge" Mr Enders said.

Airbus officials see technology-sharing in China as the price to pay for entry into a market expected to need 2,800 passenger jets of above 100 seats over the next 20 years, with a value well over $300bn (£184bn). Sales contracts are highly political. Mr Enders said the shift to China was not motivated by the lure of cheap labour, but rather part of Airbus's move to spread its operations globally.

 

[longbow]

Not true, GFK, engines to be assembled in China under CFM JV

Read here:

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...d-leap-x-engine-in-china-after-c919-deal.html

You see it is not just assembly - all the critical components from suppliers are being built in China with technology transfer as part of the deal. China is using their huge market and financial firepower to attract these firms. It is either join them and use Chinese volume to cover R&D and make your platform leading platform vs other competitors.


Avionics - JV with GE to be built in China

By NORIHIKO SHIROUZU
BEIJING—General Electric Co. made a big and potentially risky bet Sunday on China's aerospace industry as it struck an agreement with leading Chinese aircraft company Aviation Industry Corp. of China to jointly supply avionics systems for jetliner makers globally.

GE is essentially moving its avionics platform to China, angling in part to grab business for a planned aircraft China hopes will compete with jets from Boeing Co. and European Aeronautic Defence & Space Co.'s Airbus.
At the heart of GE's decision is the growth in China's appetite for planes, but the U.S. company also is betting that a China-made jetliner eventually could challenge Boeing and Airbus outside China—a notion seen with skepticism in the industry

GE and AVIC agreed to establish a 50-50 joint venture in China that GE said would be its main platform to develop and market avionics systems for global commercial-aircraft manufacturers. No financial details were given, but GE called it "a substantial investment."

GE defines its avionics systems as the "brains" of the aircraft, helping pilots navigate and operate the plane. The business is is part of its aviation-systems division, which has annual revenue of about $2.5 billion, roughly 13% of GE's total aviation revenue of $19.2 billion in 2008.

The agreement highlights increasing competition among Western aircraft-engine makers and others to supply technology for a large passenger jet China's main state-owned commercial-aircraft maker, an AVIC offshoot called Commercial Aircraft Corp. of China Ltd., or Comac, is trying to launch by 2016. The aim for that aircraft, the C919, is to compete with Boeing Co.'s B737 and Airbus's A320.

The GE-AVIC joint venture, which requires Chinese regulatory approval and is expected to launch in mid-2010, will be "GE's only way to go to market with avionics systems around the world," a senior GE executive said Sunday in Beijing.

Thus, he said, GE will make advanced commercial-avionics technology available for the joint venture without holding back and will do so with the understanding of regulators in Washington.

"This market is huge, and the Chinese aviation industry likely over the coming decades will be one of the biggest, if not the biggest, of the world," said GE Chief Executive Jeffrey Immelt in a speech before signing the agreement with Lin Zuoming, president of state-owned AVIC.

"This joint venture also opens the door for us to serve customers in every corner of the world," said Mr. Immelt, whose presence at the signing further underlined the importance GE attaches to the venture.

Boeing and Airbus are expected to come up with next-generation narrow-body jets to replace their aging jetliners, but by some projections, those replacements won't enter service until the early 2020s. Comac is aiming for a crucial edge by launching the C919 by 2016. Comac, based in Shanghai, has told suppliers it plans to sell 2,500 C919 planes over a period of 20 years.

A top executive at a major U.S. aerospace supplier calls this "overly optimistic," saying it would be a feat if Comac were able to sell 600 to 800 C919s over 20 years. The C919, even if successfully developed and marketed, might lose its luster once Boeing and Airbus come up with new aircraft to replace the B737 and the A320, respectively, he says.

Lorraine Bolsinger, head of GE Aviation Systems, said that while GE's immediate focus is to compete for C919 business, its venture with AVIC also is being established with an eye toward supplying technology for the next-generation narrow-body jets being planned by Boeing and Airbus, as well as business jets and other aircraft in the pipeline.

She said overall world-wide demand for narrow-body jetliners might amount to 20,000 aircraft over the next few decades. GE expects Comac to take a "fair share" of that demand. Such high expectations help explain GE's willingness to share the latest technology to help Comac come up with a competitive passenger jet.
"The whole premise of this joint venture is to bring [to market] advanced technology," Ms. Bolsinger said. Asked how GE would treat technology the U.S. government might consider too sensitive to transfer to China, she said GE wouldn't jeopardize its relationship with the U.S. military but noted that there is a lot of know-how and expertise outside the military realm.

For Comac, the C919 follows last year's launch of its first passenger jet, a 70-seat regional plane called the ARJ-21. GE provided engines for the ARJ-21 and last year signed a deal with Comac to purchase five ARJ-21 jets, with an option to buy 20 more. GE said it planned to lease the regional jets to Chinese airlines.

A major unknown for the C919 is acceptance by consumers, especially in key markets such as North America. Brazil's Empresa Brasileira de Aeronutica SA, or Embraer, which has aimed to compete with Boeing and Airbus for decades, has only been able to break into the smaller, so-called regional-jet business.



Almost all the parts come from abroad.
Engines from CFM, GE or RR
Landing gear from US or UK
Avionics from Europe , USA
Doors from India
Control systems from Europe
Even the wheels come from UK.

End up with just assy work.[/QUOTE]

 

[longbow]

Errrr GFK - Landing gear, nacelle, thrust reverser from Goodrich to be built in China under 50/50 joint venture.

So - avionics (GE), engine (CFM), landing gear (goodrich) all to be made in China under 50/50 JV!!!

Doors are made in China not India lah

"But the picture is changing fast. Rear passenger doors and the nose landing gear for the A320 family are made in Chengdu, emergency exit doors, wing ribs and edges in Shenyang, cargo doors in Shanghai, and wing boxes and brake blades in Shaanxi. "

August 12, 2009
Goodrich and China's XAIC Agree to Form Joint Venture Companies

* Companies to be Based in Xi’an Will Support Landing Gear and Nacelle Work

CHARLOTTE, N.C.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Aug. 12, 2009-- Goodrich Corporation (NYSE:GR) and Xi’an Aircraft International Corporation (XAIC) have signed agreements to form two joint venture companies to support landing gear and engine nacelle components manufacturing focused on the fast-growing Chinese aerospace market. The new companies are expected to compete for market positions on the COMAC C919 single aisle Chinese commercial aircraft currently under development, and also manufacture various landing gear and nacelle components and subassemblies for other aircraft.



So what is there to learn ?.
Almost all the parts come from abroad.
Engines from CFM, GE or RR
Landing gear from US or UK
Avionics from Europe , USA
Doors from India
Control systems from Europe
Even the wheels come from UK.

End up with just assy work.[/QUOTE]

 

[Sperminator]

In my opinion, this is a market that should have been pioneered by Singapore. S'pore had experienced aircraft refurbishment, overhaul, and maintenance companies, such as Lockheed Air Services. These companies had developed a good reputation with the RSAF, and other airlines, and in terms of western aircraft knowledge, were far superior to any PRC companies in the 70s and 80s.

......

Now, its too late, the Chinese are about to take it over.

I am very impressed with your recommendations Papsmearer.

Indeed SGP is well positioned for AIRCRAFT manufacturing, and these are the kind of high value, high margin business segment that SGP should be after.

And SGP's QC awareness is good enough, and Engineers & Technicians large enough.

It's really a waste that the ASSY is given to CHINA... one big piece of a cake given up.

I am no aviator specialist, but Papsmearer sound like someone who IS in the market.

If I were in the Economics Development Board's Minister, I would really push for this project to go ahead.

But then again, isn't AIRCRAFT manufacturing a risky business? as it's directly related to the economic performance of the world? Although big gains, it's tied to big losses when no one places new orders, and also big finance programs? What are the risk involved in this business.

And how we can minimize the risk? Care to share?

 

[Stage 5]

The Chinese first commercial aircraft set to take off this year.

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