Conflating the issue - CPF vs Roy's error

[blindswordsman]

We don't need to save 15 percent with the government....Why is our financial industry so backwards? The reason is because of the CPF. So much of sinkees money is sucked up by the government that sinkees have no means to invest.....Even the rich got swindled ...think Madoff.

Wait till the bubble burst ...the government has been propping up the property market by policies ...that's the main reason why the government cannot shut the door to foreigners ...the foreigners are propping up the property market for now. But the burst will come. What will be your argument then?

CPF is compulsory saving scheme but do not tweak the rules like playing marbles. Make the pay-out to members at 55 yo as originally agreed. Abolish minimum sum. Pay the interest higher than banks to members on adjustable basis linked to SIBOR. Sinkies will have no grounds to complain. Funnily, the PRs do not complain whatever ways the CPF rules are changed. Why? Sinkies know why. Even a primary 1 kid will tell you why.

If CPF pays higher interest than banks, leaving your money with CPF makes financial sense but once original withdrawal rules are tweaked, it becomes a bad scheme.

Bursting of the bubbles? The bad cloud is on the horizon now. Many private properties especially condos are unsold and new ones put on hold due to slackening of demand. Rich and poor PR scramble to buy HDB flats to make money but avoid buying condos. Why should Govt subsidised flats be sold to rich PRs?

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Unless CPF can pay the equivalent of what banks are charging for unsecured credit, Singaporeans will lose a significant amount of money whenever they have to go to a bank to borrow money because they are not allowed to touch their CPF money.

It does not matter what the banks charge. This has nothing to do with banking. This has everything to do with a government, any government for that matter, that uses its citizens money to invest and then reap incredible returns but keeps it for itself instead of sharing it with the citizens. Are you afraid that the government will hold back your money if it loses its investments? How different is that from them keeping the money from you in the first place? :*:

Why does the government see a need to keep high returns for itself and only allow a retarded return to its citizens? What kind of a government is this? And you support such a policy where the government enriches itself at the expense of the citizens? You are DAFT!

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

The CPF pays annual interest higher than local banks. No argument. When CPF lends to GIC/TH at agreed annual fixed or floating interest rate, GIC/TH are free to on-lend to third parties or invest the funds at whatever returns beneficial to them. If they can get 18% pa on the returns, so be it but why should they pass back that 18% to CPF? It does not make sense.

Just like the ah longs operating in SG. Ah long (A) give loans at 6% per week to ah long (B) but obtains it from Master ah long at only 4% per month. Ah long (B) on-lends it to borrowers at 20% per week. Should ah long (B) share that 20% per week with ah long (A)? No. Similarly, the banks also pay you peanuts to on-lend to others at higher interest. The bankers will not tell you: "I make more money, I share it with you." This is business.

The rules of CPF are often tweaked, especially the minimum sum, to make it difficult for members to withdraw their CPF money at 55 yo as originally promised. This changing of rules is the main contention. Now sinkies want their money back at 55 years and no minimum sum either.

Another DAFT Singaporean. This is why you and your offsprings are doomed to be screwed daily by the PAPzis. Why are you comparing a business and a government, your government? Keep it simple DAFTY!

If the government makes more then give more to the people. If the government makes less then give less. If the government loses then so be it and the people will lose. You will find it hard for any government to lose in investments unless they were deficient or dishonest in their capacity.

Singaporeans should not only demand the return of their CPF at age 55 but also an increase in interests earned and this should be backdated as far back as it is possible. Stop being DAFT! The government is supposed to work for you. It is not the other way around!

 

[blindswordsman]

....What is the kind of society are we are trying to achieve?......we have reached a point where people can shoulder more responsibilities by themselves...It is also time to ask about accountability and transparency...We have come to a stage of political and social maturity where it is time we asked those questions....we are no longer political and social kids, but have reached adulthood. Therefore it is time to shed the old policies that USED to work, but which no longer serves us well if we assume a position of complacency....We as citizens of Singapore want more. We look at the issues, the policies, and we say, this is not right. This needs to change.

After pappies came onto the political scene in SG and taking control of the Govt, it was always LKY who decided how sinkies should live their lives by introducing all kinds of campaigns; stop at two, no long hair, car pooling, no chewing gum, etc. Sinkies did not have backbone to press pappies for changes.

Today, it is different. Sinkies are no longer willing to let pappies decide on what to do for them and their future. Absolute power in the hands of one party rule breeds contempt, such that even a junior Minister telling sinkies to fuck off if unhappy.

 

[blindswordsman]

Another DAFT Singaporean. This is why you and your offsprings are doomed to be screwed daily by the PAPzis. Why are you comparing a business and a government, your government? Keep it simple DAFTY!

If the government makes more then give more to the people. If the government makes less then give less. If the government loses then so be it and the people will lose. You will find it hard for any government to lose in investments unless they were deficient or dishonest in their capacity.

Singaporeans should not only demand the return of their CPF at age 55 but also an increase in interests earned and this should be backdated as far back as it is possible. Stop being DAFT! The government is supposed to work for you. It is not the other way around!

Buddy, the real world does not operate in the way that you proposed. Government also operates in the same way that a commercial enterprise operates. Go to any country and compare. They fund projects from taxes, they lose money, they raise more taxes. This is life.

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Buddy, the real world does not operate in the way that you proposed. Government also operates in the same way that a commercial enterprise operates. Go to any country and compare. They fund projects from taxes, they lose money, they raise more taxes. This is life.

You have been brainwashed, rinsed and screwed till dry, repeatedly. We are talking about financial investments and not financing of public goods which is already taken care of in an annual budget. You are not only blind but incredibly confused.

 

[hockbeng]

Give me two percent compared to the daylight robbery of the NZ superannuation scheme where you take out only a fraction of what is contributed over 4 decades of working life. If you die at 70, that's $290x52x5 = $75,400. Once you kick the bucket, the payments stop. There is nothing to will to your dependents.

The average Kiwi pays at least 10% more in direct taxes and 8% more in consumption tax in order to fund welfare and retirement. All this for pittance in return.

i prefer a "leave me alone" scheme were the Gov (whatever country) lets me run my life and my money as i please.

I already pay taxes in spore so we are not talking about a Gov funded pension scheme.

 

[hockbeng]

Everyone is conveniently ignoring the most powerful factor of all... human nature.

Without CPF deductions, the money would be spent. Very few have the will power to save 15% to 20% of their salaries monthly. Even if they do succeed in putting money aside on a regular basis, anyone who believes that the working class uncles and aunties of Singapore will be able to achieve a 4% return on their savings is seriously deluded.

Many will end up being swindled of their savings. History is littered with such events from the chit funds of the 70s to the hi notes of the 21st century.

The beauty of CPF is that it funds the best long term investment of all ie property. Everyone in Singapore has benefitted immensely from CPF. Without the scheme, the collective wealth of Singaporeans would be only a fraction of what it is today.

cpf money used to purchase ppty led to a flood of liquidity entering the ppy market causing inflation.

 

[Leongsam]

cpf money used to purchase ppty led to a flood of liquidity entering the ppy market causing inflation.

It doesn't matter as long as I benefit personally.

 

[Leongsam]

i gather u own a couple of horses to offset taxes?

any chances of sam leong flag being hoist in melbourne cup?

It's not an either/or scenario. I have property too. I stick to commercial units because the yield is better and write offs are easier.

There are many ways to minimise tax liabilities. Just leave it to a good tax accountant. They are well worth the price they charge.

 

[winners]

You don't have to educate me regarding the power of compound interest for the simple reason that all my daily expenses are met by interest from my term deposits.

Besides you don't have to leave your CPF as cash in the fund. It should be used to the hilt to buy property. Since the money cannot be spent, what better way to use it than to fund property investments without affecting your monthly cash flow whatsoever. It's a classic example of how you can have your cake and eat it too.

Without the CPF scheme, I can categorically state that I'd be at least $2.5 million poorer today as I would not have had sufficient income to purchase property for investment.

I am of the same working path as you. My current daily expenses are taken care of by the interests from my fixed deposits (not local because the Sinkie banks pay peanuts) and with some surplus as well. Unless I'm into buying big ticket items (occasionally) or some major repairs in my house, otherwise, I don't need to touch my principle.

I have also utilized most of my CPF to co-pay and fully paid for 3 properties (1 for my own occupation) and these 3 properties have more than doubled their values in the years gone by. I was also able to have fully used cash for the payment of the 3 properties but instead, I used that same amount of the cash which the CPF had substituted, to further invest in stocks and shares and these have also increased my holdings with some having more than doubled in their capital appreciation and with good dividends. In addition, I'm collecting healthy monthly rentals to further supplement and build up my principle amount every month because my monthly interests alone are usually sufficient to cover my daily expenses as stated above. Of course I'll also have to watch my expenses in not being over spendthrift unnecessarily, although I still pamper ourselves with 2 or 3 tours annually.

So, in conclusion, there are opportunities to make the funds in your CPF Ordinary Account to indirectly earn more than the mere 2.5% which it gives if only you know how to legally exploit it. Of course, generally, most Sinkies would just use it to pay for their 1 and only property and forget about using it more intuitively thereafter. I've even come across Sinkies who would rather choose to leave some amounts in their CPF than to fully utilize it to the maximum to co-pay for their property, which I find is totally insensible. These Sinkies should not complain now because they had the chance to leave as little as possible in their Ordinary Account, but they chose not to.

 

[blindswordsman]

You have been brainwashed, rinsed and screwed till dry, repeatedly. We are talking about financial investments and not financing of public goods which is already taken care of in an annual budget. You are not only blind but incredibly confused.

No, lah, not blind but facts are facts. Screwed? All sinkies have been screwed by pappies and will get screwed until pappies are no longer in control. Whatever you call them, financial investments, rollovers, etc, there is a funding source.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

NZ taxes are high but I have structured my finances using Ltd companies and family trusts to minimise the tax burden. As a result, I pay only about 7% in taxes annually.

For example all my hobbies are registered as companies so that I can claim business expenses.

And how can you expect the average bloke to do that. The system simply favours the kind of activities you engage in. Not true for many other people.

 

[Thick Face Black Heart]

This is what is driving the tsunami of unhappiness of the P65 over the CPF issue. It is a serious, widespread, bread-and-butter issue. The PAP is digging its own grave by dismissing it as a fringe issue that only concerns a small proportion of uncles/aunties who don't know how to manage money.

The PAP does not understand the problems because they are fed constant falsehoods by their grassroots/PA advisors who only know how to carry balls and paint a glorious picture for them to see, resulting in them being disconnected from the people. This has become very entrenched. As Scroobal said, it is people like Cheongsam Jean who had PAP the way it is today.

I'm not even sure if they understand what is happening at the ballot box when their vote share fell to 60.1% and Aljunied was lost. Well too bad if they don't. The vote share will drop even further, possibly below 55% in 2016.

You are correct in your demographic projection. The population pyramid which is easily available from the DOS website shows that the trend has already started and the P65 cohort will become a key segment after 2020. I believe by then if the PAP continues to surround itself with sycophants and Paul Lampards, their vote share will decline to below 50% and they will lose their 2/3 majority. Suspect they will still be in power like the BN (lose the popular vote, but keep 50%+1 seats due to gerrymandering), but by then it will be too late. The political upheaval will cause gridlock in the country and we will become just another country no different from other places with gridlock and a hung parliament.

 

[virus]

It's not an either/or scenario. I have property too. I stick to commercial units because the yield is better and write offs are easier.

There are many ways to minimise tax liabilities. Just leave it to a good tax accountant. They are well worth the price they charge.

i tot you own entire sam leong street.. not name after you arh?

 

[Leongsam]

And how can you expect the average bloke to do that. The system simply favours the kind of activities you engage in. Not true for many other people.

I'm an average bloke. I'm certainly no tax expert. All I did was hire someone who knows how to structure my assets and allocate my expenses.

I pay him about $2000 per year to do my taxes for me.

 

[virus]

And how can you expect the average bloke to do that. The system simply favours the kind of activities you engage in. Not true for many other people.

boss sam is like tin tin. not your average peasant, tin tin will tell you she ordinary citizen who's dad only own a coffee shop.

 

[virus]

I'm an average bloke. I'm certainly no tax expert. All I did was hire someone who knows how to structure my assets and allocate my expenses.

I pay him about $2000 per year to do my taxes for me.

i gg to buy toto today...

 

[johnny333]

,,,Besides you don't have to leave your CPF as cash in the fund. It should be used to the hilt to buy property. Since the money cannot be spent, what better way to use it than to fund property investments without affecting your monthly cash flow whatsoever. It's a classic example of how you can have your cake and eat it too. .....

If you buy property with your CPF. The PAP treats that money you use to buy property as a loan, even though you are using your own money. They will charge you a 2.5% rate on top of your mortgage. It is something that Roy calls "Payment of CPF accrued interest" in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUb-stiXMM4

This "CPF accrued interest" will keep on growing as long as you keep the property

 

[Leongsam]

If you buy property with your CPF. The PAP treats that money you use to buy property as a loan, even though you are using your own money. They will charge you a 2.5% rate on top of your mortgage. It is something that Roy calls "Payment of CPF accrued interest" in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUb-stiXMM4

This "CPF accrued interest" will keep on growing as long as you keep the property

There's a saying "don't sweat the small stuff" that I took to heart a long time ago.

It does not matter what the PAP, LKY, LHL or CPF does in the grand scheme of things. All that matters is that property I buy for $200,000 can be sold at twice the price a few years later. The CPF can have their 2.5% interest. I don't give a shit.