Is the Chee Soon Juan appeal fading? Here comes Vincent Wijeysingha

[Picardo]

It looks to me you have personal issues with the man.

But one must avoid personal issues. It is best to focus objectively on main issues of principle alone.

And in passing, you may wish to note that "casting pearls to swine" is just a figurative and broad principle of speech, and does not refer to anyone in any personal way. Figures of speech in language should not be taken literally and out of the main context.

It's fine if he wants a break, but if he wants to win my vote, then he can't take a break. If not I will give my vote to someone who is not taking breaks.

I still need to make a choice if my candidates are all pearls and not bad persons.

 

[tanwahp]

It looks to me you have personal issues with the man.

But one must avoid personal issues. It is best to focus objectively on main issues of principle alone.

Why should I have personal issues with him. I didn't even bring up the hunger strike and loudhailer incident like most of his critics.

CSJ is not a god and free from criticism. The 3 things I stated are based on facts. I just need a clarification and move on.

 

[eremarf]

I agree that one should not throw stones at people who are doing something for the country. That being said, I am faced with the possibility of voting among 3 candidates from PAP, WP and SDP. If I throw out PAP, I have to make a decision between WP and SDP. My emphasis is on consistent (but not unchanging) party direction.

Right now I remain suspicious about a few things. Wonder if any of Chee's supporters can explain any of it.

1. He has stopped any actions that will land him in court. Does this mean he recognize that his strategy was wrong and he had intentionally sought to land himself in court.

2. He once said the opposition can never replace the govt by elections. Lately he not only discharged himself from bankruptcy and said he wants to contest elections, he stopped such talk.

3. He talks the most about opposition unity, but his actions are either superficial or incongruent.

Okay I'm not Dr Chee himself so I'm not speaking for him. These are just my views as a Singaporean who does not closely follow CSJ's activities - just the usual snippets on the internet and news over the years.

1. Gandhi was jailed a lot. Many other dudes got jailed a lot but probably weren't as lucky as Gandhi (to end up leading India). Same with Mandela and other South African dudes. The thing is - as the situation changes, people change their strategy. Back in the day, CSJ was pushing the envelope. He was a trailblazer. He defined the limits of civic disobedience. Today people think Martin Luther King is a hero for the Civil Rights Movement. But you really had to have people who pushed the boundaries and limits. Rosa Parks had to insist on sitting in the white section of the bus.

Don't you think CSJ exhausted the gahmen's credibility with lawsuits? It took the sting and fear out of it? Look how they send lawyer letters to Alex Au, to Vijeysingha, to Temasek Review Emeritus, to whack Scroobal here (and they don't even try to sue anymore). People find it unfair - and are outraged! Why?! Because they saw how ridiculously laws were used against CSJ!

There's nothing wrong with CSJ changing his strategy. If his old strategy was to show how outrageous the old regime was, how it crushed all political dissent, it doesn't mean he can't change. The PAP has changed (perhaps partly as a result of CSJ's and other people's efforts), the electorate has changed. Social media changed things greatly.

To give one example - CSJ fought very hard for freedom of expression via protests in the time before YouTube, Facebook, etc became widespread. Now, perhaps he realizes there's no need to fight so hard - technology has made it impossible for the gov't to clamp down on speech. So he changes strategy. What's wrong with that?


2. "He once said the opposition can never replace the govt by elections." - please provide the source or at least the context. I once said I would never eat MacDonald's in a fit of disgust too. But I still eat the Corn Cup when I'm desperate nowadays. "He stopped such talk" - you imply this was his consistent attitude - please support with evidence.

What I see from CSJ is a consistent fight for full democracy, far beyond the bounds of just elections. He wanted the individual and press freedoms, etc. I don't remember him saying things like "the opposition can never replace the govt by elections". He might have been cynical about the usefulness of elections in a climate of fear and media/individual expression oppression. He might have thought elections were an empty gesture of democracy if it wasn't accompanied by other democratic processes and institutions.


3. Again - you have to show how incongruent or superficial he is. He has not AFAIK harmed opposition unity. He has done no more and no less than the other parties, except for the split with Chiam See Tong way back in history - and you can see they really do have very different ideas. Every time there is a BE, SDP is the first to announce their intention not to compete.



So - unless you provide evidence of how CSJ is harming or not helping opposition unity, or that he actually said such things as "opposition can never replace the govt by elections"... we can't really have meaningful discussion.

 

[Picardo]

Fine, that may be an over-reaction, but I am rather saddend that it appears to hint that he is a bad person.

Dr Chee Soon Juan is undoubtedly not a bad person like too many people made him out to be. Not that I am siding him. But fairness is also a universal moral quality in the absolute sense.

Anyway thank you for the clarification.

Why should I have personal issues with him. I didn't even bring up the hunger strike and loudhailer incident like most of his critics.

CSJ is not a god and free from criticism. The 3 things I stated are based on facts. I just need a clarification and move on.

 

[SgParent]

My ex-students who slam Dr Chee are always surprised when I show them the side not shown by the media.

Why dun you share that side with us here?

He really is just the victim of a major smear campaign orchestrated by the PAP and carried out by their media hitmen. He was a great man and still is. He began making the sacrifices in a time when sticking out got you hammered down really bad.

He may seem to be wiser now, but can you honestly say he was faultless, he didn't offer free ammo for the White Scums/lackeys to shoot at him then?

And not sure what sacrifices are you talking about. It's not like he was earning big bucks and he willingly traded that to be able to be an alternate voice

He's not so different from Gandhi or Mandela, really.

Pls lah. Those Great Men really sacrificed almost everything to fight for their people.

 

[SgParent]

Is the Chee Soon Juan appeal fading? Here comes Vincent Wijeysingha - I know I will have bricks,stones and knives thrown at me for starting this discussion.

I'm not sure if CSJ is fading, but he is certainly not the hot headed, rash, naive politician he was. You know, not getting into the news, negatively. Which is good.

I am traditional which is mainly the reason I do not like gays. I find them bitchy whiny, petty,stubborn,inflexible, like women like that. I have to deal with my wife at home who nags at my diet and I hope not to deal with lady-like temperamental gentleman in the public.

Agree with jw5. What individual do in private is his/her own prerogative.

But PDA is definitely a no, no. Not even between straights. But some gays seem to be deliberately showcasing it. What's with that?

I have been reading the postings that Vincent Wijeysingha made on the internet and I have heard some of his speeches.My impression of him that he has fire in his belly,eloqquate and able to connect most of the time. There is no doubt you could sense his hatred for the PAP. He is a social worker who witnessed the poverty in Singapore which embolden the sense of injustice he felt and fueled his disgust for the PAP. Who are the politicians who can speak like him? My yum cha kaki today told me Vincent has some public speaking skills of that old man.I almost spitted out my chinese tea.Too bad he is not Chinese, he also said. But this is a sign that Vincent has attention

My point is Vincent is definitely able to step out of the shadows of Chee Soon Juan and SDP. At the rate of exposure that Vincent is getting and his political charm to persuade, Chee comparatively is irrelevant and he seems like a follower instead of a leader.Chee is unable to connect for the past 20 years or so and not in the future. He has lost the plot.The only thing he can do now is not to be seen as the same league of Kenneth Jeyaretnam.

If there is hope for this country to make the PAP wake up their greedy bloody idea, Vincent is the one to look at. Not Chee.

About your comments on VW, maybe. But I would not write off CSJ yet. He could be lying low and waiting for the right opportunity to strike.

If the much talked by-election of Punggol East is a proxy battle for the popularity of the political parties or individual party members, Vincent should throw his hat into the ring. PAP is much pretty at a loss.Who can PAP field?The young useless PAP members do not have much "battlefield" or public speaking experience. If pitted against Vincent,PAP will have a very hard time.

Agree. But between LLL-WP and VW-SDP, I hope they could work things out, instead of both going into a 3CF.

 

[SgParent]

In spite of all his and his whole team's tireless efforts in the past, it has been proven, I believe to his satisfaction, that 'swine can never appreciate the goodness of pearls', in it's truest sense. He is ahead of his time.

If that is how lowly CSJ/SDP thought of the true pink Singaporeans that they are supposed to represent, to fight for, then I worried.

The fact is, you want to win the trust, confidence and job offer from others, you change you way to engage them. Not the other way around. That only showed that CSJ was stubborn, naive, etc, etc.

Rather than mulling and speculating over opposition parties and personalities, it is better if you will spend your nerve energy pondering about and 'relishing', if you are inclined to do so, the unique characteristic of the voters. Ultimately, it is more about the voters than anything else. Here, they are truly a unique product of the past.

Ask CannonFairy. He/she started it.

 

[SgParent]

Right now I remain suspicious about a few things. Wonder if any of Chee's supporters can explain any of it.

1. He has stopped any actions that will land him in court. Does this mean he recognize that his strategy was wrong and he had intentionally sought to land himself in court.

2. He once said the opposition can never replace the govt by elections. Lately he not only discharged himself from bankruptcy and said he wants to contest elections, he stopped such talk.

3. He talks the most about opposition unity, but his actions are either superficial or incongruent.

Sometimes I wonder about these myself, especially when their supposed supporters are trying too hard to sell SDP/CSJ

But I will pretend those are in the past because SDP/CSJ are still useful in my hope to see more competition that always, always benefits the consumers. Same for bottom of the barrel standard people like Fatty Desmond, Rabid GohMS.

But if it's a 3CF then it's another story.

 

[eremarf]

Why dun you share that side with us here?

Share already right? What did I miss? That he got dismissed from NUS officially for mis-using small claims, and "not" because he was involved in opposition politics? Dr Vasoo is still at NUS - just saw him talking to a prof in the canteen about the Vijeysingha affair.

That Dr Chee is an intelligent person? And has always come up with clear critiques and policy alternatives? (Though he didn't manage to communicate them to many people - but the deck was so stacked against him.)

That he was brave? And willing to commit civil disobedience repeatedly (just like Gandhi, like South Africans under Apartheid, like blacks during the Civil Rights Movement). He got sued so often just for speaking without a permit (and he applied for permits but was always rejected), for protesting in public, etc. Barisan Socialis people were brave too (Chia Thye Poh was incarcerated for 23 years, and spent 6 more years under house arrest - longer than Mandela's 27 years!) - but they were not from Chee's era. Many chose exile. Chee is the only one with the appetite to practise consistent civil disobedience over many years (and he stands on the shoulders of so many giants like the Operation Spectrum folks, like Barisan Sosialis people, like JBJ, Francis Seow, Tang Liang Hong).

Sure he's got his flaws - but Gandhi and Mandela had their flaws too (Mandela for advocating violence against Apartheid, Gandhi for wife abuse etc). (And not all good people get recognised for their contributions, right?) Maybe Shanmugam has his flaws too (like Michael Palmer and Yaw Shin Leong), but we can't prove it. But when you ask him a direct question about it - he evades the issue. (Aung San Suu Kyi seems kinda free of major flaws though - other than valuing her country more than her family? But that's why we admire her right)

And not sure what sacrifices are you talking about. It's not like he was earning big bucks and he willingly traded that to be able to be an alternate voice.

You listen too much to Grace Fu and Tan Chuan Jin lah. (And you put too much emphasis on big bucks, and too little emphasis on freedom, family time, reputation, etc. I don't understand why we want to worship people who can earn big bucks - you see even Grace and Chuan Jin say it's not about the money - it's about family and privacy...)

“When I made the decision to join politics in 2006, pay was not a key factor. Loss of privacy, public scrutiny on myself and my family and loss of personal time were,”

"I am pained by the knowledge that I will miss the many moments when my children are growing up and time with family. My parents are not getting any younger. Those moments missed do not return."

Their sacrifice to enter politics is big - I don't deny that (and it's even bigger for opposition politicians like Chen Show Mao). I respect and admire their willingness to commit (but not Grace Fu's attitude - TCJ is much better). But when I compare their sacrifice to that made by Dr Chee - I'm sorry but Dr Chee sacrificed so much more.

He got dismissed from an academic career at NUS.
He got bankrupted by defamation lawsuits.
He got smeared in the media - ugly photos and all - and became a villain to so many Singaporeans.
He protested again and again and got fined and jailed repeatedly.



Whew. What a mouthful. I don't usually tell my ex-students this much actually. Those young punks have better things to do (like going out with girls, or playing soccer) than listen to me yak and I agree with them.

 

[eremarf]

I'm not sure if CSJ is fading, but he is certainly not the hot headed, rash, naive politician he was. You know, not getting into the news, negatively. Which is good.

Why do you think it's CSJ that has changed, and not the news? Maybe nowadays the news has no guts to be so shamelessly pro-PAP and anti-opposition? Maybe they know if they report trash as in the past, readers can verify the truth on the internet? Maybe they know traditional media is downtrending, and if they report trash, even less people would read the papers?

 

[SgParent]

Share already right? What did I miss? That he got dismissed from NUS officially for mis-using small claims, and "not" because he was involved in opposition politics? Dr Vasoo is still at NUS - just saw him talking to a prof in the canteen about the Vijeysingha affair.

Whether the NUS dismissal was linked to him contesting under Oppo/SDP or not is unclear. But did he or did he not MISUSE NUS $$?

You could stretch it to say when we use office phone to make private call, that is also misuse. The difference is, not everyone is contesting under Oppo/SDP. So either the young CSJ was naive or he had an agenda. I will PRETEND it was naivety, FOR NOW.

That Dr Chee is an intelligent person? And has always come up with clear critiques and policy alternatives? (Though he didn't manage to communicate them to many people - but the deck was so stacked against him.)

That he was brave? And willing to commit civil disobedience repeatedly (just like Gandhi, like South Africans under Apartheid, like blacks during the Civil Rights Movement). He got sued so often just for speaking without a permit (and he applied for permits but was always rejected), for protesting in public, etc. Barisan Socialis people were brave too (Chia Thye Poh was incarcerated for 23 years, and spent 6 more years under house arrest - longer than Mandela's 27 years!) - but they were not from Chee's era. Many chose exile. Chee is the only one with the appetite to practise consistent civil disobedience over many years (and he stands on the shoulders of so many giants like the Operation Spectrum folks, like Barisan Sosialis people, like JBJ, Francis Seow, Tang Liang Hong).

I think I've said enough about CSJ. He is not a White Scum, and he is still useful to my hope of seeing more COMPETITION that always, always benefits the consumers. Let's move on.

One thing's for sure, I dun have AS HIGH an admiration of CSJ as you do. Period.

And on those "giants" you'd mentioned, before you continue your unconditioned love for them, consider also about what they'd done, who they were, BEFORE their falling-out with the White Scums.

Sure he's got his flaws - but Gandhi and Mandela had their flaws too (Mandela for advocating violence against Apartheid, Gandhi for wife abuse etc). (And not all good people get recognised for their contributions, right?) Maybe Shanmugam has his flaws too (like Michael Palmer and Yaw Shin Leong), but we can't prove it. But when you ask him a direct question about it - he evades the issue. (Aung San Suu Kyi seems kinda free of major flaws though - other than valuing her country more than her family? But that's why we admire her right)

As I'd said about CSJ, let's move on, as long as you dun compare him to the other World Class, recognized people's champions

You listen too much to Grace Fu and Tan Chuan Jin lah. (And you put too much emphasis on big bucks, and too little emphasis on freedom, family time, reputation, etc. I don't understand why we want to worship people who can earn big bucks - you see even Grace and Chuan Jin say it's not about the money - it's about family and privacy...)

Their sacrifice to enter politics is big - I don't deny that (and it's even bigger for opposition politicians like Chen Show Mao). I respect and admire their willingness to commit (but not Grace Fu's attitude - TCJ is much better). But when I compare their sacrifice to that made by Dr Chee - I'm sorry but Dr Chee sacrificed so much more.

He got dismissed from an academic career at NUS.
He got bankrupted by defamation lawsuits.
He got smeared in the media - ugly photos and all - and became a villain to so many Singaporeans.
He protested again and again and got fined and jailed repeatedly.

Whew. What a mouthful. I don't usually tell my ex-students this much actually. Those young punks have better things to do (like going out with girls, or playing soccer) than listen to me yak and I agree with them.

This is what I'd wrote:
>
It's not like he was earning big bucks and he willingly traded that to be able to be an alternate voice.
<

"Big bucks" was just an EXAMPLE, no less an EXAMPLE of sacrifices. You wrote so much, just about my little example, suggests that you "listen too much" to the superficial meaning of my comments, went down the wrong track and MISSED the key point.
(You can see I have type the key words in CAPITAL letters now, esp for you)

The difference among sacrifices is whether it is made WILLINGLY/KNOWINGLY or not. CSM WILLINGLY, KNOWINGLY quit his highly positioned, World-wide recognized, well paid job to contest in Aljunied GRC with a 50-50 chance. The worse is, he is now showered with the many ridiculing from the daft, silent 60% and fake 40%.

Let's move on, before I talk more than I should, ended up with less VIABLE competitors to choose from. Shall we?

 

[SgParent]

Why do you think it's CSJ that has changed, and not the news?

You can be sure the Braddell Road Brothel staffs WILL do everything and anything, if any Oppo gives them the free ammo. Just like the Sun ALWAYS rises from the East

Maybe nowadays the news has no guts to be so shamelessly pro-PAP and anti-opposition? Maybe they know if they report trash as in the past, readers can verify the truth on the internet? Maybe they know traditional media is downtrending, and if they report trash, even less people would read the papers?

You are speculating, dreaming that the Braddell Road Brothel staffs know the meaning of "shame"?

 

[andyfisher]

CSJ is an intelligent bloke, hope he gets a chance to shine..and the sinks give him a chance..Eugene should also rise up..if the likes of TPL can get a platform..why not intelligent guys?

 

[CannonFairy]

Is opposition unity more important or sending in their own quality candidate Vincent Wijeysingha is more important? The non-commited SDP is telling Singaporeans that they do not have quality candidates for Punggol East residents to choose.I wonder will WP send an quality ex-SDP member to contest Punggol. That will be a blackeye for SDP.

 

[wwabbit]

More likely they did the maths and analysis and realize that not only would VW or CSJ have no chance of winning, it is also highly likely that they would lose their deposit, which would be rather embarassing. Of course they will say that they are not competing because of "opposition unity", because that sounds a lot more honourable than saying they chickened out.

 

[tanwahp]

Don't you think CSJ exhausted the gahmen's credibility with lawsuits? It took the sting and fear out of it? Look how they send lawyer letters to Alex Au, to Vijeysingha, to Temasek Review Emeritus, to whack Scroobal here (and they don't even try to sue anymore). People find it unfair - and are outraged! Why?! Because they saw how ridiculously laws were used against CSJ!

You give him too much credit, really. Sure, he was a catalyst, but one of the catalysts, like at least 100 others, and he was not even the biggest catalyst, much less the only catalyst. At the same time, 99 others were not liabilities to the extent he was.

There's nothing wrong with CSJ changing his strategy. If his old strategy was to show how outrageous the old regime was, how it crushed all political dissent, it doesn't mean he can't change. The PAP has changed (perhaps partly as a result of CSJ's and other people's efforts), the electorate has changed. Social media changed things greatly. To give one example - CSJ fought very hard for freedom of expression via protests in the time before YouTube, Facebook, etc became widespread.

SDP themselves will disagree with you. I don't think they recognized that the PAP has changed. You are not talking about minor changes, but an overall fundamental shift in strategy. Sure, social media and electorate has changed to become more liberal. Then he should be moving from conservative to outrageous, not the other way round.

Now, perhaps he realizes there's no need to fight so hard - technology has made it impossible for the gov't to clamp down on speech. So he changes strategy. What's wrong with that?

For your argument to be valid, the expansion of social media has to relate to the change from being an activist to being a political candidate. I don't see the connection.

"He once said the opposition can never replace the govt by elections." - please provide the source or at least the context. I once said I would never eat MacDonald's in a fit of disgust too. But I still eat the Corn Cup when I'm desperate nowadays. "He stopped such talk" - you imply this was his consistent attitude - please support with evidence.

When he wrote his book on non violence, he quoted Freedom House many times that "Citizens of Singapore cannot change their government democratically". Sure, it wasn't his words, but you won't quote something you disagree with unless you rebut it, which he did not, but used it as a basis for his book. His book is not available wholesale online, so i can't show it to you.

What I see from CSJ is a consistent fight for full democracy, far beyond the bounds of just elections. He wanted the individual and press freedoms, etc. I don't remember him saying things like "the opposition can never replace the govt by elections". He might have been cynical about the usefulness of elections in a climate of fear and media/individual expression oppression. He might have thought elections were an empty gesture of democracy if it wasn't accompanied by other democratic processes and institutions.

If that is what he meant and he put it that way, I will be more convinced. Maybe they should hire you to be their PR person.

Again - you have to show how incongruent or superficial he is. He has not AFAIK harmed opposition unity. He has done no more and no less than the other parties, except for the split with Chiam See Tong way back in history - and you can see they really do have very different ideas. Every time there is a BE, SDP is the first to announce their intention not to compete. So - unless you provide evidence of how CSJ is harming or not helping opposition unity, or that he actually said such things as "opposition can never replace the govt by elections"... we can't really have meaningful discussion.

He has not harmed opposition unity directly (eg going into 3 corner fights). But he is always selling the point that the opposition is not united. If I was a strong believer of opposition unity, his statements will only give me a reason not to vote for the opposition.

 

[kukubird58]

hahaha....csj is a most interesting charactor...some wise guys said he is a papee mole, others said that he is supported by foreign interests, yet others see him as a hero for standing up against papee; while others simply write him off........
amzing isn't it???
but the following things about him should be agreeable to any sensible person:
1. he was caught misusing petty cash in NUS
2. he is responsible for setting back the opps cause for decades by his actions in challenging and taking over sdp at the height of supports for opps in early 1990s....in the process he nearly caused CST to loose his seat.
3. he as leader of sdp has refused to get himself discharged from bankruptcy to contest the last few GEs.
4. he has been openly derided as a DUD by lky in the SCM/MSM and has not sued the old man

I personally have zero respect for him as opps party leader because how can a party leader not contest a GE????
worst he cannot even go on stage to address any election raliies.

 

[CannonFairy]

Vincent Wijeysingha should file a motion of no confidence against Chee Soon Juan. That is democracy at work, within SDP ranks.

 

[steffychun]

Vincent Wijeysingha should file a motion of no confidence against Chee Soon Juan. That is democracy at work, within SDP ranks.

That's simply the cat chasing away another cat.

 

[andyfisher]

for a while, CSJ seemed to be the rebound king bouyed by his book sales and video on his family life.
now he kalangkabut with the wp, i tink he better go to substitute bench for a while.

VW, its time to step up to the plate.

up my points pls. thank you you