Why I prefer to hire foreigners over Singaporeans

[Leongsam]

I am very nice to my FT employees

That's good to hear. Points for you for your kindness.

 

[johnny333]

You are looking at things negatively. If joetsys does his job properly and innovates then there is a chance that his profits will increase and his workers will be happier leading to higher productivity. Every problem provides a solution to something better. I mentioned that he needs to look into why OT is so frequent. I mentioned that he should look into additional charges for late orders from customers or for express orders. I mentioned that he could set up an afterhours delivery service which can help him and his partners earn more money if indeed there is such an issue with his company then there will be others like him too.

I can definitely improve his profits as well as improve the worklife of his workers if I have the opportunity to innovate his company's business practices and systems. If his product is good then it is not difficult to implement good systems that is a win-win for everybody including his customers.

I have only been an employee & never an employer. However I see many mom & pop businesses closing shop e.g. hawkers. Some of them have been around for years & even appear to have good business but not good enough to cover rentals.

Working with a US MNC I notice that most of the local Spore staff occupy the junior positions doing the donkey work. It is the foreign staff that are receiving the $$$$$. This could be Hongkies, Aussies, Malaysians.... The terms & working conditions are better than what is being offered by many local companies but as Sporeans are still disadvantaged.

What is worse is that whenever they bring in a new hire from a GLC it is usually bad news. When they brought in some new into HR. The culture of the ex-GLC person was to cut headcount They have even tried to interfere when a person has been hired by the US office

One striking observation is that Sporeans don't support other Sporeans It's not like a Japanese company which gives prioiry to their fellow countrymen. You will see this attitude in this forum, support the hiring of foreigners who are cheaper than locals :o

 

[Froggy]

One striking observation is that Sporeans don't support other Sporeans It's not like a Japanese company which gives prioiry to their fellow countrymen. You will see this attitude in this forum, support the hiring of foreigners who are cheaper than locals :o

I think it all comes down to control by the government again. Japan has very strict rules on foreigners seeking employment in Japan. I am sure if Japanese companies can get their hands on cheaper foreign labours in Japan they will go the way of foreigners instead of purely Japanese workers. As I've mentioned its like water seeking lower point to flow. I am not blaming governments but its only natural that businesses seeks profits and lower costs just like Apple sourcing ts products to be produced overseas rather than being patriotic to produce its products in America and bringing jobs to Americans, jobs that Americans don't wanna do for that price. I still believe that the Singapore government can do more to reduce foreigners coming here to seek employment.

Getting to the market that I am more familiar with, Thailand, we all know that Thailand is a very low cost manufacturing country lower cost than China but ask any employer if he can employ cheaper Burmese will he do it? There are more than 2million known Burmese working in Thailand and more are coming in illegally.

Coming back to Japan, as I travel there for holidays often I did noticed that many Chinese are working there in the service sector particularly restaurants. I almost miss them each time because there are so Japanese, yes so so Japanese even the way they look and dress and act, most of the time I only know when they started to speak to me and wife in mandarin after they heard me and wife speaking mandarin. Many told me there are more and more coming over to work and its is also getting easier.

 

[Froggy]

That's good to hear. Points for you for your kindness.

Don't know why so tired

 

[Papsmearer]

I don't think I can keep quiet about this.

On August 19th I had to let my most hard working staff go. He is a pioneer of the company and worked with us as driver and delivery staff for almost 6 years. His work pass cannot be renewed because of the recent new rules reducing further the quota number of foreigners allowed to work in a company, we had no choice.

It was really sad for this simple reason, it was very difficult to get local workers who is willing to do overtime whenever its required despite paying locals local salary and terms, it was also very difficult to persuade local to double up as delivery and driving, strange but its true. When they needed the job they will say they will do it but after a while they will start to complain and complain and find means and ways to aviode. Our problem is not about paying more but the willingness to work overtime and also doubling up the delivery and driving responsibility. We've got locals requesting delivery staff to travel with him while he drives only. We have no such problem with our PRC staff. Other PRC staff that we hired as sales promoters in departmental stalls are also very hard working and willing to move from one departmental store to another whenever we needed to redeploy them due to staff on leave or any emergency, for local staff we met with stiff resistance and again unwilling to work overtime.

I cannot speak for the other industry but as far as my industry in retail is concern hiring locals is a constant struggle and I can testify to the fact that Chinese from China are more hard working in this sector.

So if a question is being asked to me whom I prefer to hire for my business in retail, there is no doubt for me to hire PRCs anytime.

Its going to a a struggle for us over the next few months as another 5 PRC staff will have to go for the same reason.

Well, I don't think I can keep quiet about this either. I don't know what business u are in, but I am not without experience in operating my own business too. Your complains about the locals versus PRC staff indicates to me you don't undertand your staffing issues at all.

Complain # 1- Very difficult to find local staff who would do OT but no problem for PRC to do so.

Well, have you ask your PRC staff whether their families or relatives are also living in Singapore? I bet u the answer is no. I bet you that most of your PRC staff have their families back in China, and they are renting a HDB flat with a bunch of other similar PRC people who have no family. Their main objective here is that they make as much money as possible to send back to China, that is why they are willing to work the OT for you. Since, there is no distraction of family here with them, they can allocate all their time to making money.

The local staff on the other hand have family obligations and what not. They cannot take OT easily because they may have to make alternate arrangements for someone to look after their children. Or they want to have dinner with family, or they need to help their children with schoolwork, etc. There is nothing wrong with this, its everyone's god given right to want to spend time with their family. Because PRC staff don't have their families here, than they don't have this right available to them. In other words, the opportunity cost for OT is far greater a local than for a PRC. If you are experienced employer, you would know this.

Complain # 2 - If you have a team of delivery person and a driver, for sure you have more productive use of van or truck. A 2 man team services more customers. simple as that. A driver cum delivery person needs to find parking first, than unload the goods, and than deliver it to the customer. A 2 man team does not need to look for a parking spot or wait if the delivery bay is occupied. They just stop the truck, quickly unload, and have the delivery chap send the goods in while the driver turns the truck around and wait for the delivery guy to come back. If a local ask delivery staff to travel with him while he drives, I would tell him he can have the delivery staff, but I will give him a delivery schedule with much more customers.

Also, if you have so many locals staff turnover, do you do exit interviews or do you just assume from company gossip the reason for their resignation? In my experience as an employer, if people like working for you, they will accept less money. Of course, there is a point where the money is too great elsewhere and they leave. This is just my point of view,

 

[Kinana]

If Japan is so smart, why do they have high unemployment n a greying time bomb?

 

[johnny333]

I think it all comes down to control by the government again. Japan has very strict rules on foreigners seeking employment in Japan. I am sure if Japanese companies can get their hands on cheaper foreign labours in Japan they will go the way of foreigners instead of purely Japanese workers. As I've mentioned its like water seeking lower point to flow. I am not blaming governments but its only natural that businesses seeks profits and lower costs just like Apple sourcing ts products to be produced overseas rather than being patriotic to produce its products in America and bringing jobs to Americans, jobs that Americans don't wanna do for that price. I still believe that the Singapore government can do more to reduce foreigners coming here to seek employment..

That will never happen as long as the PAP is involved in so many biznesses AND they can avoid paying a political price.

The GLCs are the biggest culprits in bringing in cheaper foreign labor. I doubt that the PAP are aware of just how ugly the sentiment on the ground is. It's going to take more of the 60% to send them a clearer message in the next GE. As the world economy is not improving & costs are getting out of hand, even sheep have their limits

Some have suggested that the PAP is trying to convert more foreigners to Sporeans to shift the voting pattern. Even if this is true, if not enough jobs are created they will have angry foreigner to contend with & not the quiet sheepish Sporeans

 

[eatshitndie]

i understand joetys' predicament quite well. unless you're an employer or owner of a business in sg trying to hire workers for warehousing, inventory and delivery, no matter how you look at it from the comfort of your armchair or keyboard, you will not emphatize with the true situation. you can apply the most sophisticated theories, argue with the deepest passion in your philosophies, and come up with superb suggestions, in the end, a business has to not only survive but thrive in a competitive, sometimes hostile, environment. in retail and wholesale sectors, the labor component is paramount. the competition knows very well how to exploit labor and opportunities for "diverse" labor presented, and if you don't know to exploit better than them, you're in for a rude awakening. that's the reality in a fast-paced environment in sg, and all the mba and political theories espoused by so called brainiacs and uncles who think they are smarter do not match reality when these are put into practice.

i've been saying like a broken record that my family wholesale business in sg tried on several occasions to hire locals for delivery of goods to retail stores. their job also includes unloading and unpacking boxes, shelving and display of products. they are not heavy stuff, all consumables and not perishables. sometimes, there are promotions and they have to double up as decorators/assembers for stands, stack islands and signs. they also help with marketing data collection in logging goods sold, cleared, replaced by virtue of their re-stocking responsibilities. why would the company hire separate dedicated marketing staff just to log sales and movement of products? all that info can be tracked by replenishment orders. it's also optimal use of labor and time, eliminating redundancy, multiple layers of personnel and too many communication channels. in essence, the flatter and more flexible the organization, the better. workers have to be more versatile, do more, and assume more responsibilities. it provides more opportunities and avenues for job growth and career directions.

a good, productive, intelligent and ambitious worker will want to learn all facets of the business, and not just stick to their confined roles and job description. the better ones will offer constructive feedback and positive suggestions. these help make the business more efficient and competitive and their jobs more rewarding and secure. short of giving them the accounting books, contracts, business deals, supplier agreements, and keys to the business and bank accounts, the promising ones can be groomed and promoted, with the intention for retention and succession. it's extremely difficult to keep the very good ones, for obvious reasons.

at the lower levels, such as delivery and re-stocking, it's even more difficult to retain locals. they don't have the right attitudes, and they're clueless about the needs of the business. they just don't care. they're more interested in higher pay and time off, as though having lunch and dinner with a date is paramount. their hearts are always somewhere else and they are constantly talking about fun after work, either they're thinking of underaged girls to screw, someone else's wife to fuck, or cheap hookers to play with. eating well, wearing well, driving a car they can't afford, and showing off seem to be their pre-occupation. and yes, they complain a lot, incessantly criticizing the business and people running it, as though they should be boss.

if they're attentive, conscientious, hardworking and listening instead of whining all the time, they could have worked their way to management positions in the business. or, they could have learned all aspects from lowly packer to top sales person, and start their own. nope, not one local stay on the job more than a week after having to drive the company van for deliveries.

joetys' accounts back up my claims about sinkie worker attitudes in sg, especially in retail/wholesale delivery, and i'm glad i don't sound like a lone wolf howling at the moon. the other wolf howling like me is sam. :o

 

[ChaoPappyPoodle]

Its ridiculous to expect drivers cum deliverymen to become businessmen. Why don't you ask the office manager to go and drive and make deliveries?

There is nothing wrong with Singaporean workers. Every country's workers will also have the same problems. When it comes to jobs people come and go for various reasons. Employers do not like it when people leave but that is the nature of starting a business. If a company needs to make deliveries as part of their business then they will have calculated the costs of the vehicle and the driver. There are many ways to increase profits or reduce wear and tear of the vehicle and the driver such as offering customers a better price if they picked up the goods themselves. Charging extra for express deliveries and setting out cutoff orders for same-day delivery is also another way to earn additional revenue.

If your business has plagued with overtime for your workers then you need to relook at your business systems and see if there are ways to reduce that overtime or add one more shift. If you think adding one more shift will add to costs even with the extra orders then promote after-hours delivery to new and existing clients to pay for the extra shift. This is extra service that your existing customers and potential ones may not mind paying for. Employers should not be lazy but be more entrepreneurial.

 

[Tension68]

Thank you for your very fair comment Tension68.

And for the record I do not think of you attacking me, we're all here to post our feelings and comments freely however I cannot accept your comment that I am a "towkay wannabe" because I', not a wannabe and the reason I am in business is to make money not just for myself but also for all my shareholders. Have a great weekend.

Bro.. if u din c my post fully.. I quote again..

Don't think of me as attacking you.. but if you didn't sit down to talk with those SG employees of urs.. and find out what is going on.. then I classify you as another one of those so-called "towkay wannabe".. make money fast and use ppl like tissue.

And since your new post DID indicate that you did sit down and counselling them.. and even tolerate them.. (tho I don't know wat reasons did they gif u..) then my point being that if you DIDN'T do anything on your part.. then I would classify you as a towkay wannabe. But now that yuo did say you did do something. I haf no grounds to classify you as such.. do I?

Now.. this new post of yours sheds mre light on your "plight", and also gives a fairer picture on what actually happened. Your earlier post seemed to paint only the SG employees in a particular way.. but now.. the whole thing is DIFFERENT. It doesn't show the SG employee as TOTALLY BAD, and also gifs us info on how u try to adapt in your business.. altho it din go down well wif locals.. (for watever reasons I duno exactly cos I duno how ur tok or counselling went wif ur employees).. but u did realize that foreigners had no such difficulties in doing as you asked for. err.. I know dis is really prying but u din seem to mention pay.. but i won't dwell on it.. as you might be giving away ur business practices.. which could lead to poaching or a leak of info to rivals.. but.. it is info that again will reveal to us here WHY locals don't want to work overtime AND carry the stuff in deliveries.. perhaps how often they do the OT.. and the number of delivery personnel would also shed more light.. but.. I haf asked enuf.. for you have been very honest enuf to share more already.

I agree that for someone to be in business, costs have to be watched and controlled.. VERY CAREFULLY. If every costs is HIGH, then the boss or owner of the biz has to do some good math and see which can be reduced or controlled more. And sadly in SG, since rental is really HIGH.. bosses and owners can't do anything else about it (or can they?).. they look to other costs.. but to me.. making the employees.. or sometmies even forcing them to take on more roles and responsibilities.. without increasing their wages/salaries, whether immediately upon the acceptance of the new duties/responsibilities or over a period of time.. is just GIAM SIAP. Bosses and owners makes profits.. and want to pocket them ALL.. u think employees can't see that?

i feel the answer is greater profit sharing with employees. they need to feel they have a stake in the business.

Bro ionzu, dis is a good point.. SMEs should really consider this as we all know living costs is so high in SG so if businesses r willing to share abit of their profits with employees, in exchange for their handwork and committment, then I don't see why the employee would not want to work harder.

And bro joetys had brought up a good point about who and what kind of foreigners the govt is allowing into our SG. Do those who hire the foreigners really do a good background check on their qualifications? I mean, if locals haf A levels, O levels, u dun hire.. and decide to higher foreigners.. do they check their qualifications? And how to validate that those papers the foreigners have are real?

The shortcut definitely saves time, but it's not fair to all candidates who are vying for the position.. cos (I remember someone here who keeps pointing this out) MERITOCRACY is what our govt and also what our ppl believe in. If bosses and business owners want cheap labour, fine.. rembr the saying, "give peanuts, get monkeys" The foreigners you hired might not gif u problems at first.. but u never noe when something crops up.. especially when they are the largest pool of employees in your company.

I read recently in Today forums, a foreigner who asked why non-citizens' babies are not given some benefits.. and indicated that non-citizen babies might one day become "citizens".. this, to me.. is an underlying threat. One has cropped up to ask for something.. perhaps soon the foreigners will ask for MORE. See how the pinoy maid in HK even went to court to fight for PR? Even challenging the constitution there? Jus wait and see.. foreigners might appear to be friendly.. but once they haf the numbers here.. they may start to "threaten, demand, etc etc".. cos they KNOW.. "SG CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT THEM'.. as our PM said... but what they don't know, is that the PM doesn't speak for ALL of the citizens on that statement.

 

[Tension68]

You are looking at things negatively. If joetsys does his job properly and innovates then there is a chance that his profits will increase and his workers will be happier leading to higher productivity. Every problem provides a solution to something better. I mentioned that he needs to look into why OT is so frequent. I mentioned that he should look into additional charges for late orders from customers or for express orders. I mentioned that he could set up an afterhours delivery service which can help him and his partners earn more money if indeed there is such an issue with his company then there will be others like him too.

Bro, I agree that there are solutions to every problem and I agree with you that if all employers jus follow the majority in the industry and follow.. without trying to change or innovate or think of something different.. then business models is wrong.. it should be BUSINESS MODEL.. as all will follow one method and not bother to think of anything else.. jus follow the leader.

However, bro ionzu does haf a point.. particulary for businesses in SG.. maybe its the education system.. the systems.. the way we haf been brought up to think.. but.. local businessmen r not really ballsy enuf to be DIFFERENT. They LIKE safe.. they like results backed methods.. a sure-win.. not a maybe maybe thing. Look at how many similar bubble tea shops cropped up.. once ppl realized that it was a popular thing in SG. It is quite a similar with a lot of businesses in SG nowadays. It's as if business owners or ppl who want to start biz, dun want to think anymore.. not like last time when ppl actually sought out opportunities.. now.. is follow the money and get in before the trend dies out.

But honestly, in SG.. altho how small it is.. I feel that biz innovation should not be overlooked. If you are faced wif a situation, and you always do the same thing, ie hire cheaper labour.. then.. it might affect your svc quality.. gds quality.. and overall company or business image. Instead, if you can try to think of something that involves the employees.. and get them to "invest" in the company.. the results may well exceed your expectations. Whoever said that those serving the customers, or doing the job, will have the answers, are definitely not far from the truth. This is otherwise known as, "gathering feedback from the ground level".. something that I feel.. and know.. PAP has NOT been doing.. for the past.. err.. I lost count of the number of years.

But yeah.. I haf both hands raised for biz innovation and some thinking to be done.. instead of just taking the shortcut.. cheap labour is not the answer to better productivity. To me, cheap labour is the temporary measure to maintain the running of the bare biz operations.

 

[Kinana]

That's good to hear. Points for you for your kindness.

Thanks.
At the end of the day, are we all not brothers n sisters?
But it's not all altruistic though. If I treat my FT well, they too will treat me n my biz well. I can also retain them better. I benefit too you know?

 

[Tension68]

Well, I don't think I can keep quiet about this either. I don't know what business u are in, but I am not without experience in operating my own business too. Your complains about the locals versus PRC staff indicates to me you don't undertand your staffing issues at all.

Bro, good points.. pt 1 I haf put acroos myself too.. will up u when my power returns tomolo.
And ur point about 2 man/person doing delivery is also very VALID. Finding parking close to the delivery location is NOT easy in land scarce SG. And if park far.. having to carry the goods (whether heavy or not) takes up more time to be spent on sending it to the correct address. Not everyone who drives knows EVERY adress in SG mah.. haf to find out olso leh.

Luv u bro, muacks... (dun wori.. i not gay.. jus very friendly)

 

[Tension68]

Its ridiculous to expect drivers cum deliverymen to become businessmen. Why don't you ask the office manager to go and drive and make deliveries?

There is nothing wrong with Singaporean workers. Every country's workers will also have the same problems. When it comes to jobs people come and go for various reasons. Employers do not like it when people leave but that is the nature of starting a business. If a company needs to make deliveries as part of their business then they will have calculated the costs of the vehicle and the driver. There are many ways to increase profits or reduce wear and tear of the vehicle and the driver such as offering customers a better price if they picked up the goods themselves. Charging extra for express deliveries and setting out cutoff orders for same-day delivery is also another way to earn additional revenue.

If your business has plagued with overtime for your workers then you need to relook at your business systems and see if there are ways to reduce that overtime or add one more shift. If you think adding one more shift will add to costs even with the extra orders then promote after-hours delivery to new and existing clients to pay for the extra shift. This is extra service that your existing customers and potential ones may not mind paying for. Employers should not be lazy but be more entrepreneurial.

agree agree. if biz owners want staff/employees to be committed, they must sit down and tell them their plans for their career.. not just EXPECT employees to know.. as employees might.. and will believe that bosses will want to keep all profits and promote within family and friends.

wif no proper boss and staff communication on company goals.. employees career path.. dun expect anything.. as you din communicate anything. What you say can earn you alot more.

Luv u too bro.. muacks..

 

[Froggy]

i've been saying like a broken record that my family wholesale business in sg tried on several occasions to hire locals for delivery of goods to retail stores. their job also includes unloading and unpacking boxes, shelving and display of products. they are not heavy stuff, all consumables and not perishables. sometimes, there are promotions and they have to double up as decorators/assembers for stands, stack islands and signs. they also help with marketing data collection in logging goods sold, cleared, replaced by virtue of their re-stocking responsibilities. why would the company hire separate dedicated marketing staff just to log sales and movement of products? all that info can be tracked by replenishment orders. it's also optimal use of labor and time, eliminating redundancy, multiple layers of personnel and too many communication channels. in essence, the flatter and more flexible the organization, the better. workers have to be more versatile, do more, and assume more responsibilities. it provides more opportunities and avenues for job growth and career directions.

Wow sounds so familiar, hope we're not competitors. :p joking la. I couldn't put it in words better than you did. Ya its very much like you described above my business except that delivery done to all departmental stores in Singapore.

I have to add I don't face such problems in Thailand and so far there is no indication that the Thai workers are moving in the same way as Singapore any time soon. In my short foray into the Indonesian market so far what I face are sloooooow workers will learn more very soon.

 

[Froggy]

That will never happen as long as the PAP is involved in so many biznesses AND they can avoid paying a political price.

The GLCs are the biggest culprits in bringing in cheaper foreign labor. I doubt that the PAP are aware of just how ugly the sentiment on the ground is. It's going to take more of the 60% to send them a clearer message in the next GE. As the world economy is not improving & costs are getting out of hand, even sheep have their limits

Some have suggested that the PAP is trying to convert more foreigners to Sporeans to shift the voting pattern. Even if this is true, if not enough jobs are created they will have angry foreigner to contend with & not the quiet sheepish Sporeans

This is a pretty scary thought, what happens after all the citizenship are handed to foreigners and suddenly PAP bastards are defeated we're all left with the irreversible shit created by them.

 

[Froggy]

Its ridiculous to expect drivers cum deliverymen to become businessmen. Why don't you ask the office manager to go and drive and make deliveries?

There is nothing wrong with Singaporean workers. Every country's workers will also have the same problems. When it comes to jobs people come and go for various reasons. Employers do not like it when people leave but that is the nature of starting a business. If a company needs to make deliveries as part of their business then they will have calculated the costs of the vehicle and the driver. There are many ways to increase profits or reduce wear and tear of the vehicle and the driver such as offering customers a better price if they picked up the goods themselves. Charging extra for express deliveries and setting out cutoff orders for same-day delivery is also another way to earn additional revenue.

If your business has plagued with overtime for your workers then you need to relook at your business systems and see if there are ways to reduce that overtime or add one more shift. If you think adding one more shift will add to costs even with the extra orders then promote after-hours delivery to new and existing clients to pay for the extra shift. This is extra service that your existing customers and potential ones may not mind paying for. Employers should not be lazy but be more entrepreneurial.

I do not expect workers to be businessmen neither do I expect management to be delivery boys, hell I don't even expect myself to go to money changer to change money, my finance department is responsible to do that for me.

I really am not saying Singaporean workers are very bad, what I had been stressing is our government had allowed employers like me to have access to better workers who are more hungry. I am advocating that we need to control foreigners coming into Singapore to work, then all employers are on the same playing field. Then all employers will have to pay more for Singaporean workers and even compete for Singaporean workers by giving more incentives to Singaporean and this makes Singaporeans happier and richer and because Singaporeans workers have better remunerations and even more time due to better welfare Singaporeans will spend more and improve our economy and even have more time and less pressure to procreate. Many of our problems comes from foreigners this has to stop.

 

[Froggy]

I agree that for someone to be in business, costs have to be watched and controlled.. VERY CAREFULLY. If every costs is HIGH, then the boss or owner of the biz has to do some good math and see which can be reduced or controlled more. And sadly in SG, since rental is really HIGH.. bosses and owners can't do anything else about it (or can they?).. they look to other costs.. but to me.. making the employees.. or sometmies even forcing them to take on more roles and responsibilities.. without increasing their wages/salaries, whether immediately upon the acceptance of the new duties/responsibilities or over a period of time.. is just GIAM SIAP. Bosses and owners makes profits.. and want to pocket them ALL.. u think employees can't see that?

I like to make a point here - many employers had lost sight to increasing profits by increasing business and chose the short cut of increasing profits by cutting costs. This is really unwise and short term but it happens so often. Employers should spend more time to look for business and once business increased the cost issue is automatically solved.

 

[chonburifc]

Knn, this type of kuching driver/delivery problem also need you to worry. No wonder you no tome come sin city.

Fire your manager lah.

 

[The_Hypocrite]

PAP is CRap