Tan Kin Lian and disgraced lawyer Leonard Loo

[scroobal]

As I said all jurisiction around the world took similar action. I have no doubt that some who are less educated and not worldly probably thought that TKL was indeed the saviour. Would Singapore as the 4 th largest financial centre be an outlier - unlikely.

That is actually not the issue. TKL began associating Loo over legal recourse. Its in black and white in his own blog. Leadership whether by choice or by default requires certain traits. He did not have some and this is one glaring example.

Another is his outright dishonestly of claiming to be an independent candidate when he was a founding cadre, a member for over 30 years, held the second most important political position in a ward second only to an MP, held the chair of MCC, CCMC etc. The only difference is that TT and TCB resigned from the party later than him.

The fact that he lost his deposit despite starting the race first long before any other candidate were in the frame, carried out an extensive on-line self promotion on daily basis, provided financial help-line, his involvement in the mini-bond saga etc do that Singaporean sense that he is flawed on important attributes.

I think his attendence at the funeral in a campaign outfit sort of made it clear how terrible this chap is - an opportunist, ready to use any event to get mileage.

 

[Hawkeye1819]

I was using the term "pass" loosely. MAS has guidelines on the type of products that are supposed to be sold to people of different profiles. Instead of doing the fact finding objectively when doing up the profile, many RMs ask questions in a leading manner. Some even go as far as to provide the "correct answer" for the person to reply so that the investor can "pass". Even worse is that if we read the MAS report correctly, some RMs proceeded to sell inappropriate products when the person had "failed" based on the risk profile.

Given the way things are, no surprise if what happened with the mini bonds happens again.

MAS truly has a lot to answer for. I think they know what is going on, but behave like a toothless tiger.

It doesn't stop at financial planning. Land banking, wine collection, and the latest fad -- gold and silver -- all need greater scrutiny but none forthcoming. Granted these are technically not under MAS jurisdiction, but the consumer interest is at stake here. I believe there is much greater scope for regulation of these activities.

 

[wikiphile]

As I said all jurisiction around the world took similar action. I have no doubt that some who are less educated and not wordly probably thought that TKL was indeed the saviour.

That is actually not the issue. TKL began associating Loo over legal recourse. Its in black and white in his own blog. Leadership whether by choice or by choice or by default requires certain traits. He did not have some and this is one glaring example.

Another is his outright dishonestly of claiming to be an independent candidate when he was a founding cadre, a member for over 30 years, held the second most important political position in a ward second only to an MP, held the chair of MCC, CCMC etc. The only difference is that TT and TCB resigned from the party later than him.

The fact that he lost his deposit despite starting the race first long before any other candidate were in the frame, carried out an extensive on-line self promotion on daily basis, provided financial help-line, his involvement in the mini-bond saga etc do that Singaporean sense that he is flawed on important attributes.

I think his attendence at the funeral in a campaign outfit sort of made it clear how terrible this chap is - an opportunist, ready to use any event to get mileage.

I love it when a man declares what he wants and got what he want - he wanted 100,000 signatures, He got 100,000 voters in the end

I fucking love happy endings *sniff*

 

[scroobal]

Mis-selling of financial products by actual salemen and women cloaked as financial advisors is an issue in many countries. It is driven by big commissions. The approach is how to get past the checklist and not how to work with the checklist.

I was using the term "pass" loosely. MAS has guidelines on the type of products that are supposed to be sold to people of different profiles. Instead of doing the fact finding objectively when doing up the profile, many RMs ask questions in a leading manner. Some even go as far as to provide the "correct answer" for the person to reply so that the investor can "pass". Even worse is that if we read the MAS report correctly, some RMs proceeded to sell inappropriate products when the person had "failed" based on the risk profile.

Given the way things are, no surprise if what happened with the mini bonds happens again.

 

[neddy]

MAS truly has a lot to answer for. I think they know what is going on, but behave like a toothless tiger.

It doesn't stop at financial planning. Land banking, wine collection, and the latest fad -- gold and silver -- all need greater scrutiny but none forthcoming. Granted these are technically not under MAS jurisdiction, but the consumer interest is at stake here. I believe there is much greater scope for regulation of these activities.

Regulation is not the magic bullet. Many will get away before a few financial parasites will be captured.
There is also the cost incurred in regulating and who will pay for them.

The US and Europe are unable to create another economic bubble so that we can play bull-run!
http://www.singsupplies.com/showthr...r-the-old-and-the-young&p=1152725#post1152725

 

[hawker]

When Tan Kin Lian ran for presidential election, most would have not heard of this Leonard Loo lawyer yet. Hence it is not right to 'credit' some blame of Tan Kin Lian's spectacular failure to him. The same cannot be said of another of Tan's well-known running mate though. He openly endorsed Tan, spoke on Tan's rally on egged him on to no end.

The end result was a major embarrasssment for Tan and him.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

There is no shame in such thing as a democratic process.

Everyone has his right to support anyone, win or lose is just a process of democracy.... There can be only one winner. Losing deposits or not, nothing to feel ashame of. One should only feel ashame when integrity is in question, you got what I mean?

Goh Meng Seng

When Tan Kin Lian ran for presidential election, most would have not heard of this Leonard Loo lawyer yet. Hence it is not right to 'credit' some blame of Tan Kin Lian's spectacular failure to him. The same cannot be said of another of Tan's well-known running mate though. He openly endorsed Tan, spoke on Tan's rally on egged him on to no end.

The end result was a major embarrasssment for Tan and him.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Scroobal,

By your perspective here, then there are LOTS OF OPPORTUNISTIC Opposition members in all parties, especially WP!

I mean, where were all these newbies when the going was though back in 2000? Who joined WP? Well, in spite of YSL's booboos, he should be credited for his dedication of his effort and hardwork for rebuilding WP right from scratch back in 2000 when JBJ broke off!

Why so many people joined WP right after GE2006? Opportunistic, of course! They saw the opportunity to get something out of the good showing of WP back in GE2006! Which politicians aren't opportunistic? Very few indeed.

There is nothing wrong for TKL to claim to be independent. In relative terms, he is one of the most independent, as compared to the other candidates. He was non-partisan longer than any of the other candidates. i.e. resigned from partisan politics. So what's wrong with that? Can TCB be considered as "independent"? Can TJS "independent"? Can Tony Tan be "independent"? It is a matter of relativity.

Tony Tan resigned from PAP to run for Presidency but has he been critical of PAP before or supportive of democratic movement? TJS "independent"? You must be kidding and should learn what independence means. BTW, I didn't know TKL was "founding cadre" of PAP! You must have your facts wrong.


Goh Meng Seng

Goh Meng Seng

As I said all jurisiction around the world took similar action. I have no doubt that some who are less educated and not worldly probably thought that TKL was indeed the saviour. Would Singapore as the 4 th largest financial centre be an outlier - unlikely.

That is actually not the issue. TKL began associating Loo over legal recourse. Its in black and white in his own blog. Leadership whether by choice or by default requires certain traits. He did not have some and this is one glaring example.

Another is his outright dishonestly of claiming to be an independent candidate when he was a founding cadre, a member for over 30 years, held the second most important political position in a ward second only to an MP, held the chair of MCC, CCMC etc. The only difference is that TT and TCB resigned from the party later than him.

The fact that he lost his deposit despite starting the race first long before any other candidate were in the frame, carried out an extensive on-line self promotion on daily basis, provided financial help-line, his involvement in the mini-bond saga etc do that Singaporean sense that he is flawed on important attributes.

I think his attendence at the funeral in a campaign outfit sort of made it clear how terrible this chap is - an opportunist, ready to use any event to get mileage.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I can work with people who are opportunistic, I can work with people who are selfish at times and I can even work with people who are erratic, but I can't work with people who lacks integrity.

Regardless of what bias Scroobal or any other people have against TKL, we cannot deny his contributions made in the Minibond Saga. As someone has said, the victims may not even be compensated at all, just like the Clob saga back in the late 90s if nobody took to the street to protest and help victims to seek redress in justice.



Goh Meng Seng

 

[elephanto]

QUOTE=Goh Meng Seng
...If you are not those ardent WP supporters who will defend WP and whack other parties, then my apologies to you (kudos for being a gent...)

I have been seeing lots of such people around for the past years and getting tired of them. I am all for social and political activism, even if some of these people have even scolded me vulgarity in public or private (actually yeah, you poor thing.. some of the abuses have been excessive) I don't discount or brush aside their contributions, however little it may be. (see? 'however little' is so uncalled for, reveals always your sense of misplaced superiority)

But the arrogance of WP people really puts me off and I only put up the shortcomings of WP to show that there are things WP chose not to do (for whatever reasons they might have) while others pick it up. But to turn around and put down other people's contributions and hardwork, that is really totally uncalled for. (fair sentiment, where the difference lie is some felt those contributions & hardwork are not altruistic in nature & have self motivtion & vested interest as well)

Frankly speaking, even for me, when I first know about Minibond, at first impression and sight when some bank tellers were trying to sell it to me, as finance and economics trained person, I also thought it was just a big piece of bonds (bonds are usually in the tens or hundreds of thousands ) being split into smaller sizes and sold as such. I didn't know much about the risk swap and such things. It was a very clever trick in using the misleading word "Minibond" to project a safe financial instrument. But I didn't fall for it because the so call 6% return looks very suspicious to me. Instinctively, my philosophy is no risk no gain.

Anyway, the point is, even if I am not too familiar with such things or issues, I could well do my own research and read up many other writings. Internet is such a wonder thing that you could practically get yourself educated in almost anything you want. If you have the heart to help out, the strong mind to uphold the most basic fundamental core principles and values, there are ways for you to do so by working hard on the research.

TKL and his team, walked into the Minibond activism with basically inadequate but basic knowledge and information. It is only later when we do a closer study on this monster Minibond and structured financial instruments that we found so much injustice in the whole thing....basically, investors have been totally fooled. It took us many man hours to figure out what the hell this monster is about. I have my more comprehensive understanding by reading the newspapers in HK which did a detailed and comprehensive dissection of Minibond.

Thus, I emphatize with investors like your niece and nephews for being fooled into this scam and we fought on. However, as I have said, if it is not through the team effort of putting up massive information and showing the truth and facts of the nature of this scam, there won't be any pressures on the govt and banks/financial institutions to own up and compensate.

The govt, particularly MAS, didn't make good of its accountability of letting such a scam to get into the financial system and harm unsuspecting investors. They kept quiet and distance themselves from any blame. Even in HK, which the Legco's report has just recently released, pointed out that the HK govt has to take up part of the responsibility for allowing this scam to past through their gatekeeping. Particularly, the previous head of financial regulation has been censured. This is only possible when the opposition in the Legco pressed for thorough investigations. (okay, wow, thank you for that background, largely true i presume minus your own opinions laced within)

HK is a better free democracy than Singapore even though it doesn't have universal suffrage. But such freedom is not taken for granted. It took many people of many efforts and contributions to uphold its core values. But in Singapore, we have people who, for their own selfish interests, try to belittle other people's efforts and hardwork. This is a very sad thing to me. Basically, they don't understand that it takes all kinds of people to keep the Democratic movement to move on. WP alone, isn't going to be effective.

(The crux is this: all these years since madcow soc.culture days, you struck me as a citizen with conscience & courage

albeit lacking raw nous. Since you left WP, became Sec-Gen NSP, became active in blogs, coining 'minister-specific'

strategy if ever there is such a thing, going on TV in CNA etc ... it became clear that you have let your ego & false sense of

superiority complex destroy you. You pride yourself on your intellectual ability to analyse & postulate. In addition, your

pettiness & moral self-righteousness is most vexatious especially the constant harping on perceived hypocrisy of the

YCL/LTK culpability & the Moulmein forfeiture & quibbling over the inferior lineup of the WP candidates..... in the above

post, you correctly pointed out some things WP don't do (for whatever reason they know best), things which you feel a

pubic-spirited Opposition should take on. Again, therein lies your political naivety (LTK choose his causes). Putting

criticism aside - you would obviously disagree - , consider objectively the following:

(1) since with your insightful observation, YSL's less than stellar moral behaviour should have been obvious all along & by your insinuation, LTK is either too dense or don't give a shit, then what about you - the righteous one who love the Opposition Cause. Did you blow the whistle or play nice guy - none of my business leh...
So stop, in Chinese parlance, 50 steps scoff at 100 steps. Hougang BE is long over, rest your pet angst over YSL .

(2)
I agree probably WP should embrace some issue which if they did not, I can understand.
If you feel WP did not play Opposition role well enough, stop criticising their way.
Make it !
Enter Parliament & do it your way, show us your conscientious and courageous ways of Opposing!

That is the sore point why most forummers here are after your ass.

Instead of doing what you should - no half-fucked pursuit - you not only resign from NSP, self-appoint 'political commentator/observer/analyst' & snipe from the sidelines still lamenting WP poor sport, never give way to other Opp Parties. Please, even within Opposition Camp, nobody owes anybody anything !!!

3-4 or even 5 corner fight, let the voters decide as in the case of the PE !

I remind you: the quality of Opposition Parties & members are so 'varied' to put it mildly, it is just like little Timor Leste demanding that everyone should treat them 'equally', as equally as US or Russia is treated, simply because everyone is a UN member.... hello! WAKE UP!

You are not stupid nor heartless - just very self-centered, stubborn & love to occupying yourself with logic & intellectual arguments.... the last two is not everything and sometimes even your application of them is most
quaint...)

Mind you, did I abuse you with vulgarity here, Meng Seng ... please reflect in the right spirit what is posed above. Thank you )

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

I think you really got it upside down, elephanto.

Who are the ones who have "superiority complex" when it comes to MK saga? I have set it out pretty clearly. Marine Parade is actually the BETTER choice for WP if it wants to talk about proximity to their base in Hougang and Aljunied... I uphold my conscience and in my own assessment, it is indeed a better place than MK although many people, including my people in NSP, are skeptical about it. I am making a sound and rational assessment and I am not giving lemons to WP by suggesting Marine Parade to them, mind you. NSP has worked three rounds of knocking doors in Macpherson and they have put all dangerous precincts into Marine Parade. A rational mind, not arrogant one, not superiority complex one, would see that very clearly. Of course, Tin PL is an added bonus! I am kind enough to remind WP about such a good piece of meat for them but they just wanted a fight in MK with NSP in a 3 corner fight! What a joke! Who is the one with Superiority Complex, my dear elephanto? If I really have superiority complex, then I would end up doing the most irrational thing of fighting 3 corner fight with WP in MK! Sheeeesh!

But it is their "SUPERIORITY COMPLEX" that blinded their own eyes. I have repeated so many times, if they have combined resources to stand in Marine Parade, they would have avoided three corner fights with Desmond Lim and the whole thing would have ended amicably.

Unless you are saying anyone who criticise WP's performance would have suffered some sort of Superiority Complex?

I make no apology for being morally upright nor being strategically more savvy in every sense. Not about being proud nor selfish here. If there is something wrong, then it is in public interests to bring it up or even criticise it if necessary. Well, WP CSM has talked about PAP should be more tolerant to criticisms like the Tang Emperor but it doesn't apply to WP?

If I have that "Superiority Complex", I would not have resigned from NSP. After all, I have spent tremendous effort and time in building up NSP, why should I give way to others who have just joined and ride on the waves made? There are many people who have fought nails and toes over power and control of a party! Nah. That isn't my style. I am willing to step aside and let others who think they could do a better job, to hold the steering tight. And to avoid being perceived as to be in the way of other people's success, I am even ready to resign from it altogether.

We have come to a critical time of the Democratic movement whereby opposition parties must play ball and not slack, else all effort would be all wasted.

You are over demanding to say that I should blow the whistle earlier. If I do, you would still say I have "Superiority Complex" in talking bad about other party's candidate "without any solid proof"! Come on, is that a fair comment, I ask? Especially so, when there is inter-opposition parties competition, as a leader of NSP that has competing interests against WP in MK, that kind of view would be seen as self-serving!

At the very least, I could say that I am not that "Superiorly" insane to blow the whistle after YSL won in Hougang! If I have done, most probably you would say again, I am jealous of his success! Come on lah! Everything on hindsight is 100% clear. But let's see it from the perspective that what if something is done there and then with limited information to others?

I have to admit, I have expressed concerns privately to close associates about YSL being a time bomb before the scandal blew up into WP's face. But no, I am not that Superiorly Insane to spill the beans on him. Even when I have tried to give good advice to him and WP on how to get out of that situation, there will always be people who scorn on me! What man! You actually want me to blow the whistle on him? Give good advice already get scorn, you want me to commit suicide by blowing the whistle on him? Sheeesh!

Really Black or White, you win! 黑白讲！


Goh Meng Seng

(The crux is this: earlier on, you struck me as a citizen with conscience & courage albeit lacking raw nous. Since you left WP, became Sec-Gen NSP, became active in blogs, coining 'minister-specific' strategy if ever there is such a thing, going on TV in CNA etc ... it became clear that you have let your ego & false sense of superiority complex destroy you. You pride yourself on your intellectual ability to analyse & postulate. In addition, your pettiness & moral self-righteousness is most vexatious especially the constant harping on perceived hypocrisy of the YCL/LTK culpability & the Moulmein forfeiture & quibbling over the inferior lineup of the WP candidates..... in the above post, you correctly pointed out some things WP don't do (for whatever reason they know best), things which you feel a pubic-spirited Opposition should take on. Again, therein lies your political naivety. Putting criticism aside - you would obviously disagree - , consider objectively the following:
(1)
- since with your insightful observation, YSL's less than stellar moral behaviour should have been obvious all along & by your insinuation, LTK is either too dense or don't give a shit, then what about you - the righteous one who love the Opposition Cause. Did you blow the whistle or play nice guy - none of my business leh...
So stop, in Chinese parlance, 50 steps scoff at 100 steps. Hougang BE is long over, rest your pet angst over YSL .

(2)
I agree probably WP should embrace some issue which if they did not, I can understand.
If you feel WP did not play Opposition role well enough, stop criticising their way. Make it ! Enter Parliament & do it your way, show us your conscientious and courageous ways of Opposing!

That is the sore point most forummers here are after your ass.

Instead of doing what you should - no half-fucked pursuit - you not only resign from NSP, self-appoint 'political commentator/observer/analyst' & snipe from the sidelines still lamenting WP poor sport, never give way to other Opp Parties. Please, even within Opposition Camp, nobody owes anybody anything !!!
3-4 or even 5 corner fight, let the voters decide as in the case of the PE !
I remind you: the quality of Opposition Parties & members are so 'varied' to put it mildly, it is just like little Timor Leste demanding that everyone should treat them 'equally', as equally as US or Russia is treated, simply because everyone is a UN member.... hello! WAKE UP!

You are not stupid nor heartless - just very self-centered, stubborn & love to occupying yourself with logic & intellectual arguments.... the last two is not everything and sometimes even your application of them is most
quaint...)

Mind you, did I abuse you with vulgarity here, Meng Seng ... please reflect in the right spirit what is posed above. Thank you )

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Ok, look, elephanto, you blame me for not blowing the whistle on YSL earlier.... but now, you are taking issue with my criticisms on WP as non-partisan observer?

Look from this perspective, there would be conflict of interests if I have blown whistle on YSL when I was a member of NSP, more so as the SG of NSP. Now that there isn't any potential conflict of interests, I do exactly what you want me to do earlier on but you view this as "self righteous"? Taking snap shots at WP? Mind you, WP is NOT the only political parties that has been criticised or have whistle being blown by me right now!

If you feel that by saying the obvious truth (the inferior line up of WP candidates vs NSP's MK team) is a show of "pettiness", so be it. I have forgotten to say, I also have no apology to be saying the obvious truth.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[tanwahp]

Another mark against the creditability of TKL

While that may be true, the press often picked Leonard Loo for interviews on legal matters. He has appeared on TV more often than many lawyers I know. So with or without TKL, the press is guilty of giving Loo the credentials.

 

[kingrant]

That confirms it. Your English is too crever by half. Here TKL has "recommended" Loo, and you still did not admit it. TKL put that in his blog. We all came to that one sentence with the key action of "roping in", and everybody saw that except you. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

If all politicians are like GMS, then I really worry.

You don't look at facts and context but simply come to such simple conclusion by reading one single sentence?

At no time was Loo mentioned as the "preferred" lawyer or "official lawyer" for the Minibond saga. He was at that place offering his service and willing to give legal advice. Thus, he was introduced. However, later into the saga, another lawyer also shown interests in providing his service, he was too introduced to the victims. What's wrong with that?

Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

It involves actively seeking or just a passive receiver. It does matters.


Goh Meng Seng

That confirms it. Your English is too crever by half. Here TKL has "recommended" Loo, and you still did not admit it. TKL put that in his blog. We all came to that one sentence with the key action of "roping in", and everybody saw that except you. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

If all politicians are like GMS, then I really worry.

 

[kingrant]

Did you actually read TKL's blog or not? He went from a passive receiver to an active recommender!

Omg! GMS, you are really daft.

It involves actively seeking or just a passive receiver. It does matters.


Goh Meng Seng

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

As I have said, when you are in his position, you would do the same! None of his High up contacts dare to agree to help out.... opposition members who are lawyers also kept quiet... what do you expect him to do when there is a need of a lawyer's service like preparing affidavits for the victims?

It is easy to cry foul with 100% hindsight but please pause, look at the context.

Goh Meng Seng

Did you actually read TKL's blog or not? He went from a passive receiver to an active recommender!

Omg! GMS, you are really daft.

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Having said that, as I have said, Loo was not the only lawyer who have come forward. If you have followed the whole saga, you would realized that there is another lawyer involved, even as the lawyer helping to file affidavits.

Goh Meng Seng

 

[kingrant]

Seriously, Mr Goh, I don't know you and I am just judging your response by what you say here. The point here is this:

you objected to the use of the phrase "roping in" by TFBH. All the time I am just pressing home the point that indeed TKL has used the services or recommended the use of the services of a lawyer called Loo in a way in his blog that can be construed as "roped in". As you have said, Mr Loo may be wandering around Hong Lim Green, did not know TKL before this, suddenly felt civic-minded enough to volunteer hos services...all these do not matter. In the end, TKL still named him as the person to go to, no others mentioned, except Loo. So this act of naming him as a provider of service is what we consider "roping in". It is not what Loo has done; it is what TKL has done that we are referring here. And TKL has made a bad referral.

But your objection is that he was wandering around at the periphery, sucking his thumb, was not the only lawyer etc, and therefore does not qualify to be regarded as being "roped in" is well, just a non-sequiteur. There is no context involved here. The fact is that TKL made a referral to his namesake, and that is all there is to it.

No wonder SBF threads with you in it always run into pages because you argue over nothing when the fact is plain!

 

[Goh Meng Seng]

Kingrant,

It takes more than two to clap louder, don't you agree?

I have said enough on this one. People like to talk about things on hindsight without really understanding the context and situation at hand there and then. So be it. But for me, on hindsight, people should pressure opposition parties more to get involved in this Minibond saga so that we don't even need Lawyer Loo at all.... yeah, on hindsight... sigh.

Goh Meng SEng

Seriously, Mr Goh, I don't know you and I am just judging your response by what you say here. The point here is this:

you objected to the use of the phrase "roping in" by TFBH. All the time I am just pressing home the point that indeed TKL has used the services or recommended the use of the services of a lawyer called Loo in a way in his blog that can be construed as "roped in". As you have said, Mr Loo may be wandering around Hong Lim Green, did not know TKL before this, suddenly felt civic-minded enough to volunteer hos services...all these do not matter. In the end, TKL still named him as the person to go to, no others mentioned, except Loo. So this act of naming him as a provider of service is what we consider "roping in". It is not what Loo has done; it is what TKL has done that we are referring here. And TKL has made a bad referral.

But your objection is that he was wandering around at the periphery, sucking his thumb, was not the only lawyer etc, and therefore does not qualify to be regarded as being "roped in" is well, just a non-sequiteur. There is no context involved here. The fact is that TKL made a referral to his namesake, and that is all there is to it.

No wonder SBF threads with you in it always run into pages because you argue over nothing when the fact is plain!