Understanding why Singaporeans accept importing cheap foreign workers policy...

[ginfreely]

Huh? Why must be full time housewife?

Actually when I was still in Singapore, me and my wife shared the housework. I would clean the toilets and mop the floor. She would wash and iron the clothes. We all fold the clothes together. It's not that "impossible" lah. And I was working till evenings 10-11pm weekdays and Saturdays mornings. She was a teacher doing marking into the wee hours of the morning.

Yes life is tough but to say that "no maid cannot survive" is ridiculous. Maybe as ridiculous as the businesses that say, cannot survive without hiring cheaper foreign workers.

What about the cooking and washing up after cooking, you didn't mention whether you or your wife did that when in SG?

For families with children, unless all eat dinner at grandparents' house, there is a need to cook family dinners if not the family will have to eat out all the time, which is unhealthy and costly...In SG, some parents have to work late, a maid can help to prepare dinner for the children...

Just to clarify, I don't have a maid but I think it is okay for others with such family needs to do so...

 

[ginfreely]

Bingo! No maids then no need FTs no need cheap foreign workers. I share your sentiment. Could it be that the influx of maids caused all this problem in the first place? Remember that it was back in the 80s when there were few foreign workers that the maid thing was unleashed.

It's ok I understand Tourette's Syndrome. Cheers buddy!

I don't think the influx of maids caused all the problems in the recent 6 years, afterall maids have been around in SG for many years more than that...more importantly, maids stay with employers and so have no impact on housing, they also don't travel much during weekday and peak hours to contribute to traffic congestion...it is the influx of other foreigners, essentially the work permit holders, S pass and other employment pass holders plus the PRs who have housing and transport needs - besides taking away jobs - who are the cause of the problems...and these problems in turn require more foreign workers to come in to build the houses, transport infrastructure required, so it is a vicious cycle...

 

[eatshitndie]

When you can't even achieve a decent sense of equality of your own people.............

I hear the Govt saying Singapore first but it looks like just lip service.

who are you kidding? equality for all? what kind of bs is that? only diehard commies from a hundred years ago believe in that kind of ideological bs. even hardcore commies today in cuba and north korea don't practise equality. a modern society today based on democratic principles and capitalistic models to spur economic activity and growth is never an equal society.

 

[nayr69sg]

I don't think the influx of maids caused all the problems in the recent 6 years, afterall maids have been around in SG for many years more than that...more importantly, maids stay with employers and so have no impact on housing, they also don't travel much during weekday and peak hours to contribute to traffic congestion...it is the influx of other foreigners, essentially the work permit holders, S pass and other employment pass holders plus the PRs who have housing and transport needs - besides taking away jobs - who are the cause of the problems...and these problems in turn require more foreign workers to come in to build the houses, transport infrastructure required, so it is a vicious cycle...

Several of you have not caught my point.

What is the rationale for hiring domestic maids? - Hire someone willing to accept low wages to do work so that it frees up time for more work (which can earn more money) and leisure time.
Correct me if I got the above wrong.

What is the rationale of business owners hiring work permit holders, S pass and employment pass holders? - Hire someone willing to accept lower wages to do work so that it increases profits and frees up time for more business expansion
Correct me if I got the above wrong as well.

But if I have not got the two points wrong, then it is essentially the same principle used.

One could even say that the whole idea of maximizing the benefits of hiring cheaper foreign workers for problems we encounter with labor needs, stems from the practice of hiring foreign domestic maids. I am sure a large proportion of the Singapore population grew up with maids in their house. It has been ingrained in many from young the idea of getting "someone" else to do "dirty work".

Seriously, if the government were to clamp down on hiring foreign domestic maids, we could have new businesses spring up eg household cleaning businesses which hire locals. For the matter what is so wrong with doing your own housework? Europeans do it. Canadians do it. Japanese do it. Chinese do it. Singaporeans cannot survive without maids.

As for cleaning up after cooking, yes my wife would cook and I would clean up. There are also things called dishwashers which are very common in places like Canada and USA.

It's our own home, our own family. Is it so impossible to do the household work associated with having a family and living in a home? Yes hiring a foreign worker who is highly affordable will "solve" this problem very easily. Which is probably the same way businesses owners think as well.

Someone else talked about hiring more foreign doctors to make health care more affordable. Same idea.

I have read threads that talk about the plight of engineers who have been replaced by cheaper foreign engineers. Same idea.

IT professionals replaced by cheaper foreign IT pros. Same idea.

Can you see what I am driving at?

If Singaporeans start putting their foot down and saying hey, it's my home, I want these things done by MY FAMILY MEMBERS , MY OWN PEOPLE and I will be willing to pay the price for it, either by putting in effort and time on my part or paying higher dollar for my countrymen to do it, then that would be the day we can start saying the same about jobs in Singapore too.

Think of the family at home and the work that needs to be done and who is going to do it? How?

Then think of the country and the work that needs to be done and who is going to do it? How?

I hope more can see the parallels I see. I have had this discussion with Singaporeans before. It is always a raw nerve.

 

[nayr69sg]

Domestic Maids already have minimum wages, which is the obscene levies paid by the employer to the pappies. Unfortunately, the domestic maids do not get any of these levies. Any Sinkees with a common sense will rather pay the maid the levies instead to the pappies robber. Name me a country that the employer need to pay levies to hire maids.

Name me countries which have any policy with regards to schemes helping almost every household have a maid at home.

I can think of two : Singapore and Hong Kong.

Other countries will reject work permits for such menial type jobs.

 

[Unrepented]

1. Unless people holding two jobs, then more time do more work and earn more. But majority of sinkies are one job, more work in the job, earn the same pay.

2. Hire someone willing to accept lower wages to increase profit and free up time for more business:*: This one I can't help you, you need a brain reset.

Several of you have not caught my point.

What is the rationale for hiring domestic maids? - Hire someone willing to accept low wages to do work so that it frees up time for more work [/U](which can earn more money) and leisure time.
Correct me if I got the above wrong.

What is the rationale of business owners hiring work permit holders, S pass and employment pass holders? - Hire someone willing to accept lower wages to do work so that it increases profits and frees up time for more business expansion
Correct me if I got the above wrong as well.

..............

 

[nayr69sg]

1. Unless people holding two jobs, then more time do more work and earn more. But majority of sinkies are one job, more work in the job, earn the same pay.

2. Hire someone willing to accept lower wages to increase profit and free up time for more business:*: This one I can't help you, you need a brain reset.

Some people paid per hour. Some people work longer hours, do more work, get promoted get higher salary.

Time is precious of course.

 

[eatshitndie]

I don't think the influx of maids caused all the problems in the recent 6 years, afterall maids have been around in SG for many years more than that...more importantly, maids stay with employers and so have no impact on housing, they also don't travel much during weekday and peak hours to contribute to traffic congestion...it is the influx of other foreigners, essentially the work permit holders, S pass and other employment pass holders plus the PRs who have housing and transport needs - besides taking away jobs - who are the cause of the problems...and these problems in turn require more foreign workers to come in to build the houses, transport infrastructure required, so it is a vicious cycle...

the cause of the "surge" in sg has its roots in old man's visit to hk. contrary to reports that he obtained from his stooges who had pride in the sg system and liked to cast hk in a poorer light when compared to sg, his physical presence in hk plus interactions with the who's who of hk caused him to think on his feet from the info gleaned first hand. convinced that hk was doing a better job with higher density yet high productivity, his admission and later full embrace of hk caused some in the civil service to cringe, especially those who thought hk could not be compared to sg in light of the disparity in geopolitics and location. what transpired after the die was cast were new appointments, new organzations, new direction and all out embrace (plus the undesirable effect of over-reaction) by all ministries as though titanic was about to hit the iceberg and all hands were on deck. it showed sg moved like a carrier battle group ready to do battle, which was an excellent metaphor and a positive. but the over-zealousness in some organizations created an unmitigatable ripple effect over time. the idea was good, but over-zealousness in execution resulted in cracks, backdoors and loopholes. for any exploiting the relaxed system of little to no check and balance, cracks, backdoors and loopholes became floodgates, like in all firewall or intrusion protection systems. a small prick is the nemesis of a virgin bubble. can't truly blame the visionary. sg needed infusion of talent and lots of it. it's those who carried out the vision who needed to go back to school. he could have hired me, paid me peanuts, and a flawless system would be in place, and all these whining would have been unnecessary. no matter what, decades from now, sinkies will realize that the vision is excellent. it's long term gain with short term pain. :p

 

[eatshitndie]

Some people paid per hour. Some people work longer hours, do more work, get promoted get higher salary.

Time is precious of course.

in the u.s., the live-in maid business has all the while been an "underground" business in order to skirt the law and minimum wage rules.

 

[nayr69sg]

in the u.s., the live-in maid business has all the while been an "underground" business in order to skirt the law and minimum wage rules.

Oh you bet! And there are Singaporeans in Canada also trying to do the same. Singapore has open policy to do it, no need to go underground!

USA has a history of slavery you see. Old habits die hard.

 

[Unrepented]

Friend, most people are just trying to maintain their job by doing whatever more is thrown at them. And promotion comes about not just by volume of work done which is expected of normal performance, but results that are of exception.

And by tell us "Time is precious, of course" is this the best rebutal you can manage? Who does the business expansion? Those that are responsible for biz expansion are not the ones whose time can be freeup by low wage administartive staff, or even low wage PMETs. And we need "real" FTs who can provide the biz network extension, to say the least.

Some people paid per hour. Some people work longer hours, do more work, get promoted get higher salary.

Time is precious of course.

 

[nayr69sg]

Friend, most people are just trying to maintain their job by doing whatever more is thrown at them. And promotion comes about not just by volume of work done which is expected of normal performance, but results that are of exception.

And by tell us "Time is precious, of course" is this the best rebutal you can manage? Who does the business expansion? Those that are responsible for biz expansion are not the ones whose time can be freeup by low wage administartive staff, or even low wage PMETs. And we need "real" FTs who can provide the biz network extension, to say the least.

I wasn't referring to the present situation. Maybe more like in the 80s. That's when working hours started to become longer. Competition. One family hires a maid, they realize they have more time to do various things including work. Colleagues see that and follow suit. And then everyone is stuck and dependent on having someone settle their housework.

My point is that Singapore didn't start of having to "NEED" foreign maids or foreign workers. But somehow the floodgates were opened. And now it is hard to get rid of the water.

There appears to be some contradictory statements being raised.

So are foreign domestic maids, cheap foreign cleaners and garbage collectors welcome in Singapore? Low wage foreign workers welcome?

Are high earning professionals from overseas welcome in Singapore?

Seems like some say yes, some say no.

If you are a business owner and the policy is such that you can hire cheap workers to fill the positions you need would you welcome it?

Similar as someone looking to employ a domestic maid, to help with the household chores would you welcome policies that support that?

It all depends who you are, but the principle behind both is roughly the same.

Would Singapore really struggle if it became a lot harder to hire foreigners (maids included)? Or would Singapore be a better place?

 

[Unrepented]

Sgp universities were like manufacturing plants with planned productions to meet economic demands.

Imo, can import FW and FTs, to fill the gaps. Even if we have cheap foreign workers, their pay do not have to be the same as locals (even with minium wage limit).

As a biz man, well yes.....lower the cost the better. But there is the social responsibility towards the country and citizens. That's where the ration of foreign workers vs citizens were set. But with the unbashed open door policy, it faciliates and entice circumvention of the policy by biz.

Frankly, I do agree that sinkies were getting complacent and arrogant. But the current level of open door policy for cheap labor, and any tom, dick, and harry is not the solution.

And lastly, your thread title is misleading.......which takes away any respect one would have reserved for a forummer.

I wasn't referring to the present situation. Maybe more like in the 80s. That's when working hours started to become longer. Competition. One family hires a maid, they realize they have more time to do various things including work. Colleagues see that and follow suit. And then everyone is stuck and dependent on having someone settle their housework.

My point is that Singapore didn't start of having to "NEED" foreign maids or foreign workers. But somehow the floodgates were opened. And now it is hard to get rid of the water.

There appears to be some contradictory statements being raised.

So are foreign domestic maids, cheap foreign cleaners and garbage collectors welcome in Singapore? Low wage foreign workers welcome?

Are high earning professionals from overseas welcome in Singapore?

Seems like some say yes, some say no.

If you are a business owner and the policy is such that you can hire cheap workers to fill the positions you need would you welcome it?

Similar as someone looking to employ a domestic maid, to help with the household chores would you welcome policies that support that?

It all depends who you are, but the principle behind both is roughly the same.

Would Singapore really struggle if it became a lot harder to hire foreigners (maids included)? Or would Singapore be a better place?

 

[nayr69sg]

And lastly, your thread title is misleading.......which takes away any respect one would have reserved for a forummer.

It is only misleading if one thinks that the principle of hiring a foreigner at low wages to do housework is not importing cheap foreign workers.

 

[scroobal]

I am trying to make this as simple as possible.

Most will agree that there are 2 distinct parts to the Singapore market economically

Part 1 has been in existence since the late 70s when factories were built and demand for labour supply shot up. Singaporeans could find out a new industrial sites many which required technical and mechanical skills besides entry level assembly line work. Education also played a part in increasing Singaporean skill set and therefore aspirations.This led to labour shortage in the following areas

1) Construction work. We first got Malaysians, then Thais, then Indians and now Bangladeshi.
2) Refuse and Bin Collection

With out ladies with better education and to make payment for their new homes and to pay for the renovation, the next phase began

3) Domestic maids.

In all 3 cases, there was a genuine shortage of people in these 3 areas. I am fully aware many misuse the maids and some genuinely do not need the maids.

Part 2.
Singaporeans and society at large however are not pleased when foreigners are brought at much cheaper rates in nearly all jobs with the PMET sector is badly hit. We now have people displaced in mid carreer, people taking jobs that they are overqualified or underpaid against a known trajectory seen in the developed west. When you have people who are overqualified driving taxis you know we have a problem.

Mixing the part 1 and part 2 is erroneous. I have not heard a single person ever complaining about Indian construction or Foreign maids taking over their jobs. Its horses for causes.

I am however in a agreement that high dependency on maids is going beyond belief.

 

[Unrepented]

"Singaporeans accept importing cheap foreign workers policy"

Do you understand the scope and extend of a "policy"? And the implications of not qualifying its scope?

Now you tell us its about foreigner to do housework.

I don't want to derail your thread, but please refine your mind-fucking tatics.

It is only misleading if one thinks that the principle of hiring a foreigner at low wages to do housework is not importing cheap foreign workers.

 

[nayr69sg]

Ok lah. I surrender.

Singapore needs domestic foreign domestic maids and cheap foreign workers in "certain" jobs only. This will be my last post outside of the emigration section. It was a nice trip down memory lane.

No offence to anyone. No hard feelings too. Cheers to everyone. Wish everyone in Singapore all the best in the present and future.

 

[eatshitndie]

Oh you bet! And there are Singaporeans in Canada also trying to do the same. Singapore has open policy to do it, no need to go underground!

USA has a history of slavery you see. Old habits die hard.

which is why the u.s. is in an illegal immigration conundrum right now.

"legalize" these illegals, get them to pay tax, subject them to the same minimum wage laws that legit workers are subjected to, and we have a bigger underground illegal immigrant market. legalized illegals will soon have no work because they will cost too much, or for the same price an employer will rather hire young jobless more educated citizens. most small businesses will still rely on the underground for illegal below minimum wage cheap labor, thus sustaining market demand for more illegals to risk lives crossing the border.

treat these illegals as illegals or keep the status quo, and citizens paying their fair share of tax will continue to whine incessantly about the shrinking resource pool, overcrowding in schools, freeloading on social welfare, and crashing emergency health care. but at the same time, these same citizens will enjoy a gourmet meal at a restaurant, which maintain prices yet keep service level up to stay competitive, without betting an eyelid on who actually prepares their food in the kitchen, picks up their dirty dishes and cleans the table after them.

the service, groundskeeping, janitorial, home care, elderly care and food processing industries in the u.s. are hooked on cheap illegal labor, and they will lobby hard to keep the status quo. otherwise, they will simply hire new illegals. in sg, at least the gov understands the situation, doesn't play politics, remains practical and has an open policy. the one advantage that sg has is a more secured border or gates of entry. the u.s. border is just too big and porous. sg is so tiny yet can manage up to perhaps 2 million migrant workers. the u.s. have more than 20 million. in sg, they're moving up the food chain and taking over ordinary jobs. in the u.s. they're still doing mostly grunt work as they can't move up due to the illegal status. that, imo, is the main difference.

 

[Leongsam]

Part 2.
Singaporeans and society at large however are not pleased when foreigners are brought at much cheaper rates in nearly all jobs with the PMET sector is badly hit. We now have people displaced in mid carreer, people taking jobs that they are overqualified or underpaid against a known trajectory seen in the developed west. When you have people who are overqualified driving taxis you know we have a problem.

I have to chip in to point out that in the PMET category, it was already getting harder and harder to hire Singaporeans with a good work ethic way back in the early 90s when I was still involved in manufacturing.

I wanted to hire a supervisor to do 3rd shift (11pm to 7am). Not a single Singaporean responded. Shift allowances would have meant a take home pay of at least $3000 pm which was great money in those days but that didn't make a difference. We ended up hiring a Pinoy. He was the best supervisor of the lot.

I've already told the story about Singapore engineers refusing to go on overseas assignments or coming back on weekends for urgent issues so I won't go down that road again but I'm sure you catch my drift.

Singaporeans screwed themselves by becoming soft and lazy. The PMET category thought they were God's gift to the workforce. They are now paying the price.

If you dug a bit deeper, you'll probably find that the majority of those driving taxis now were the ones that refused to go the extra mile when required because the ones with the fucked up attitude that used to work in my factory are now the ones that are down and out. The hardworking and ambitious ones are still doing very well and are earning in the $200,000 per year range.

 

[eatshitndie]

Ok lah. I surrender.

Singapore needs domestic foreign domestic maids and cheap foreign workers in "certain" jobs only. This will be my last post outside of the emigration section. It was a nice trip down memory lane.

No offence to anyone. No hard feelings too. Cheers to everyone. Wish everyone in Singapore all the best in the present and future.

please continue to post outside the emigration folder and engage sinkies who don't fully comprehend and experience the concept of minimum wage in practice. they think they know (in theory only) but they don't, until it's decades in the process, and they'll back here whining endlessly and regretting about instituting it. for those overseas and have seen the ugly wreckage, we need to warn the clueless.