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WP's Lee Li Lian confirmed !

cass888

Alfrescian
Loyal
He was hiding behind the skirt of Nicole Seah and the underwear of ex-MP Cheo Chai Chen. Let him stand one-on-one with Tin Pei Ling or one-on-two with Michael Palmer and Desmond Lim and see how many votes he will get.

Yet he got more votes than the SDP Dream Team....
 
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longbow

Alfrescian
Loyal
PAP will win. With 3 cornered fight and no familiar faces, opposition has zero chance.

SDP Chee should stop his harping about his Western style democracy. Singaporeans have right to vote and that in itself is democracy to most SIngaporeans. What they are interested are bread butter issues - cost of living, getting into good schools, FT grabbing their jobs and places in schools.

Opposition should sit down and pick and choose areas to compete and start the ground work for next election.

LLL was a wise pick. She did contest in this area but WP knows they have zero chance so instead of pulling in a bigger gun and still lose, LLL is a sacificial lamb.

So even in the event of 3 cornered fight, hopefully opposition will have some united message at end of rally.
 

myfoot123

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
The problem lies with the demographics for PE. It is a young constituency with a relatively high incidence of highly educated graduate couples. While those that support Opposition will vote for LL in a straight fight, they will be drawn to a strong SDP candidate with better credentials.
.

Let's look at it from this perspective. Highly educated graduates couples might not translate to higher pay, higher status in this cheap country. Many graduates have suffered under PAP reckless immigraton policies. They will vote for anyone who stood against PAP regardless.

On the other hand, they probably wanted moderate change and not a drastic one. So they might still think WP is the best to manage their town with lots of passion unlike PAP chasing people to pay up whenever they own TC fee.

WP brand also carried well with old "teochew" folks in the eastern zone. I believe Aljunied emotion has spread to its neighbour town in Ponggol East already. However, SDP has a long way to convince those old folks who only relied on msm for news. My father is one of those old people still stubbornly believe SDP is a pyschopath regardless of my reasoning with him. Thus distressed educated couple and old folks may be the reason why WP is likely to win. 41% votes in last election is a testamount that WP is likely to do pretty well. I can't say the same for SDA.
 

metalmickey

Alfrescian
Loyal
WP brand also carried well with old "teochew" folks in the eastern zone. I believe Aljunied emotion has spread to its neighbour town in Ponggol East already. However, SDP has a long way to convince those old folks who only relied on msm for news. My father is one of those old people still stubbornly believe SDP is a pyschopath regardless of my reasoning with him. Thus distressed educated couple and old folks may be the reason why WP is likely to win. 41% votes in last election is a testamount that WP is likely to do pretty well. I can't say the same for SDA.

Does Punggol East have young people or old people? Make up your mind.

Punggol East is not Hougang or Aljunied. The demographics are different. Whether or not they vote for WP, it is with different consideration.

I'm told the SDP dream team did well in Bukit Timah but not the HDB flats in Holland. That's why the PAP gerrymandered them together.
 

ray_of_hope

Alfrescian
Loyal
Does Punggol East have young people or old people? Make up your mind.

Punggol East is not Hougang or Aljunied. The demographics are different. Whether or not they vote for WP, it is with different consideration.

I'm told the SDP dream team did well in Bukit Timah but not the HDB flats in Holland. That's why the PAP gerrymandered them together.

The Bukit Timah aristocrats voted for SDP, but it got a smaller %age of votes from the pigeon-hole peasants from the neighbouring heartlands. :biggrin:
 

TuaGow

Alfrescian
Loyal
Does Punggol East have young people or old people? Make up your mind.

Punggol East is not Hougang or Aljunied. The demographics are different. Whether or not they vote for WP, it is with different consideration.

I'm told the SDP dream team did well in Bukit Timah but not the HDB flats in Holland. That's why the PAP gerrymandered them together.
sdp message can only appeal to those angmoh educated snobs who like to talk big and complex issue to make them more atas than all of us.
 

Bougainvillea

Alfrescian
Loyal
Longbow: "SDP Chee should stop his harping about his Western style democracy. What they (Singaporeans) are interested are bread butter issues, cost of living, getting into good schools, FT grabbing their jobs, places in schools".
Hi Longbow, I am amazed by your thinking! It is people with your kind of mentality that prevent Singapore from being a first world country, and keep PAP in power for a long time. Please tell me how are bread and butter issues independent from national policies???????
 

Bougainvillea

Alfrescian
Loyal
Hi Longbow, if GST is high, it increases the cost of living. If immigration policy is too lenient, it leads to overcrowding and deterioration of infrastructure, competition for available jobs and high housing prices. If healthcare policy is not right, it leads to unaffordable healthcare services etc. Please be thankful that there are still some Singaporeans like CSJ ‪who would dedicate their lives to protect the oppressed and underclass in Singapore by fighting for good national policies. Thanks
 

metalmickey

Alfrescian
Loyal
sdp message can only appeal to those angmoh educated snobs who like to talk big and complex issue to make them more atas than all of us.

There is the young HDB, and there is the old HDB. SDP will not appeal to the old HDB, that has been proven by Holland / Queenstown estate. SDP has not tried the young HDB, so it is hard to tell - they tried Sembawang but with their weaker candidates.

If I want to pick a candidate I will look for brains and heart. Rejecting somebody on the basis that he "like to talk big and complex issue to make them more atas than all of us" - sorry, you are just not interested in democracy. Democracy is all about talking through complex issues. Perhaps you'd prefer a PAP walkover instead.
 

Fook Seng

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
The problem lies with the demographics for PE. It is a young constituency with a relatively high incidence of highly educated graduate couples. While those that support Opposition will vote for LL in a straight fight, they will be drawn to a strong SDP candidate with better credentials.

I highly doubt statistics will bear out your conjecture in a significant way unless you are talking about Sentosa where every house or apartment costs several millions or tens of millions dollars. Someone who lives in an HDB flat, a private condo or a landed house in PE is not likely to be very different from one another as far as age and education is concerned.

Except for small number of elites and a slightly larger number of the deprived poor, the rest are in the broad middle class facing the same bread and butter issues. And it is this bread and butter problem that this huge middle class is concerned about - the high cost of housing, bus and train fares, COE and medical costs. Definitely very few will be interested in gay rights, whether they support it or not, or agree with what these NGOs are preaching which the SDP seems ever ready to champion.

Among those which are being publicly discussed, AYG and PT will be extremely attractive to voters in PE. If SDP fields them, I expect PAP to win and a photo finish between SDP and WP for 2nd and 3rd place. This will be a victory for SDP as it will establish them as being on par with WP. VW, while good, will suffer greatly in a 3CF. If he is the SDP candidate, then WP will maul SDP and there is even the chance SDP will lose deposit. If things somehow gets patched up and TJS becomes the surprise SDP candidate, I expect SDP to convincingly beat WP even if WP fields GG.

Except for AYG which is a known character and VW which you dismissed as not winnable, we are left with PT, who is unknown to most voters until a few days ago and even that only known to cyberspace warriors and just a list bearing his credentials. AYG had worked at the grassroots before but under the PAP. Don't expect the PAP swing voters to root for him especially under the SDP banner. They will probably consider him a turncoat and place their support behind the WP. So I don't think there is any positive thing going for these candidates.

As for TJS, evidently you are a TJS fan. In the first place, I don't think TJS will get into the fray if there is no guarantee of a win. In fact there is guarantee of a loss except in the case of a straight fight, unlikely with SDP contesting. If he goes in not to win, then it must be to improve SDP's standing. But what for? And be branded with yet another example of being an opportunist? I think he believes he is meant for better things - to be President, to lead his own party, not to be the second or third man in the party. Others yes but not him.

Now, assuming he got conned into accepting such a role. Can he win or do better than WP? Win is not possible whether for SDP or WP in a 3CF.

Can he do better than WP? The 24/25 % support he got in PE 2011 came mainly from the opposition supporters, a number of which, including well known names in this forum, admitted of making a mistake after TT got elected. The PAP swing voters actually put their votes with TCB (estimated 24%). About 10% percent of moderate opposition voters also go to him. This 10%, who would rather choose an ex-PAP candidate instead of TJS, will not go to TJS in a BE in PE. They are for WP to take. As for the 24 % that went to TJS in the PE, I am of the opinion that at least 10% of this will go WP's way (TJS was the only candidate clearly carrying the opposition flag) based on branding advantage together with TKL's 5%.

In other words, TJS is likely to get around 15 % from the real hardcore opposition and WP around 26% and Desmond keeping his 4.5% which I don't think he will in a 4CF. Let's split that 2% each to TJS and WP leaving 0.5% for Desmond. I am sorry to Desmond but let's face the fact. He is out of his element here. So PAP -54.5%, DL -0.5%, TJS -17% and WP -28%.

This conclusion is deduced from past results and performance without taking into account the possibility of swing votes in the past 2 years. I think with the MRT issue, the rise in COE, not much change in housing cost, although stabilized and the Palmer factor (which is worth a negative 2%), there is the possibility of a 6% swing vote. Let's share this out equally between TJS and WP and the results should look like:

PAP - 48.5% (YAM to return PAP's candidate as the MP for PE)
WP - 31%
SDP - 20% (TJS to return to no party status to prepare for the next election, be it BE, GE, or PE. His career path will be fixed this way)
DL - 0.5% (deposit forfeited and subsequently expelled from his party)

The interesting thing to note is that in the absence of both TJS and DL, WP would have won a narrow margin over the PAP and this forum would then once again debate on what had gone wrong in the election and a few high profile forummers would come out and admit they had made some terrible mistakes.

I am of the opinion that whether TJS is fielded by the SDP or not, the above results will remain. Party branding and what it represents will be foremost in the mind of most voters.
 
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metalmickey

Alfrescian
Loyal
I highly doubt statistics will bear out your conjecture in a significant way unless you are talking about Sentosa where every house or apartment costs several millions or tens of millions dollars. Someone who lives in an HDB flat, a private condo or a landed house in PE is not likely to be very different from one another as far as age and education is concerned...

I would agree that under a 3 corner fight the PAP will get around 50%. But otherwise I am not that sure about your other conclusions.

If you say that SDP are not concerned about bread and butter issues you have not been listening to them. They just released a proposal on taking HDB flats out of the private market. They kept on complaining about GST. Yes, they have talked a lot about gay rights and migrant worker rights, but that's not all there is to SDP. As for the high cost of housing, it is a very difficult issue to campaign. If you don't say that you are going to bring down the cost of housing, you will be accused of neglecting bread and butter issues. If you say that you are going to bring down the cost of housing, you will piss off all those people who already own a house.

So supposing SDP were to field a very strong candidate - Wijeysingha or Tan Jee Say, I can't imagine how well they will do against the WP. Could be 20% SDP, 30% WP. Could be 25% each way. I certainly don't envy Lee Li Lian. And SDP is actually either very brave or very foolish by participating the way they have. First, they run the risk of pissing off opposition supporters who can rightly claim that WP might have won the election if not for SDP participation. Second, they run the risk of doing badly, and having their name tarnished for quite some time, and all the gains of 2011 taken away. Why would they run Paul Thambiah against Koh Poh Soon when both people are so similar? (Folksy, humble down to earth medical doctors).

SDP has a big decision to make in the coming days. PAP will win a 3 corner fight, most people agree with that. The more interesting and open questions are:

1. Will the PAP poll more than 50%?
2. What is the balance of power between WP and SDP?
 

aurvandil

Alfrescian
Loyal
It is a common misconception that the demographics of Singapore are flat and evenly spaced out. There are very large variances, the most common being the age of the HDB estates which house the bulk of the voters. An area like PE with a large number of new HDB flats tends to have a higher incidence of young voters. Strongly correlated with age is educational attainment since later cohorts of Singaporeans tend to be more highly educated than earlier cohorts. The relationship with wealth is however not evident. Within a cohort, higher education tends to equate to greater wealth. Across cohorts, this is however not true due to the economic mismanagement since the 1990s.

A younger demographic which is more highly educated but not doing so well makes PE a ripe battleground for the Opposition. However by virtue of their education, they want quality Opposition which can be effective is making their lives better. In judging the quality of the Opposition candidate, they would inevitably look at 2 things. The first would be the person that is standing. The second would be the party that the person is from. WP has better branding but weaker candidates. SDP has weaker branding but better candidates (less VW who is a special case).

The attempt to project vote shares based on GE 2011 and PE2011 are likely to give wildy inaccurate results. GE 2011 saw PAP pit a heavyweight against a weak WP candidate and a nuisance candidate. PE 2011 was unique contest which saw vote splits in both PAP and Opposition voters. Who got what share of the vote is anyones's guess.

The number of forms collected by WP and SDP give an important indication to intentions. For WP, they have more or less decided on their candidate which is why they picked up 1 set of forms. For SDP, they have yet to decide which is why they picked up 3 sets of forms. There is of course also the possibility that SDP picked up 3 set of forms because they wanted to keep the identity of their heavyweight secret. In which case, it would mean SDP is deadly serious about contesting.
 
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sense

Alfrescian
Loyal
Word of advice for LL: Just keep the itch to writing. http://leelilian.blogspot.sg/

Itch2_Write.jpg
 

sense

Alfrescian
Loyal
[h=1]Q&A with Lee Li Lian[/h]


April 21, 2011 - 5:47pm

[h=2]By:[/h] Bryna Sim


lilian.png


TNP PHOTO: Benjamin Seetor


Lee Li Lian, 32



Occupation:
Trainer with insurance company Great Eastern Life


Career Highlights:
She has been actively involved in both industrial and financial sales for the past six years, before moving on to become a recruitment manager with a private institution. She took on her current position as a trainer in 2008.


Family:
She is the eldest in the family with two younger sisters. Her father, 62, is currently a store-keeper, while her mother, 59, baby-sits her niece.

She is married to Mr Jacky Koh, 34, a telecommunications consultant. He goes overseas a lot, and is back in Singapore once every two to three months. The couple plan to have children after the GE.


Q: You are concerned about stay-at-home mums and single parents. How do you intend to help them?


A: They should not be forgotten. Give them monetary incentives. Don't leave them out from workfare bonuses. For single parents, I think they should be given tax reliefs, baby bonuses, help when buying a new home... they should not be left out.


Q: What are some of the challenges that you face so far as a female opposition candidate?


A: I don't think gender is an issue. I think the question should be about the challenges that I face as an opposition candidate.

People have this fear when you join an opposition party, they want to know, how are you, do you have to be careful about the way you speak...But nothing is going to happen as long as we do the right things right.


Q: Why join the WP?


A: I want to get rid of the fear that I mentioned earlier, and I have to choose the right party. I see the WP as the right party and the right leader to follow. During the previous elections, I had a chance to speak to them, and I saw them on stage and see how they present themselves and ensure that everything is all right, everyone is together.

That gave me the belief that this is the party to join.


Q: Mr Low Thia Khiang said that you have been a good mobiliser of your husband and your family members. How so?


A: My husband flew back from his busy work schedule to be with me to give me support during this period. He has a role in the Workers' Party General Election this year; he's going to be our photographer. My husband has a flair and passion for photography.

My mother is helping me to source for cooks for polling agents. My father joins me on my walkabouts, so people can see that I've the support of my family. I think that's important. My father has also been helping with the distribution of flyers.




http://www.tnp.sg/content/qa-lee-li-lian
 

aurvandil

Alfrescian
Loyal
On TJS, he is in a league of his own for several reasons. These are:

1) He has credentials which are even better than the announced PAP candidate.

2) His performance in the Presdential Election was credible and he has broad name recognition. He lost out to TCB for the Opposition vote because TCB belongs to an old gaurd PAP that many Singaporeans long for. It is a stretch to compare LL to TCB.

3) He has a huge war chest and can easily match the PAP in election spending.

4) For the Presidential Election, he had the endorsement of Nicole Seah. If he runs under SDP, he could get Nicole to support him again.
 

Fook Seng

Alfrescian (Inf)
Asset
There is of course also the possibility that SDP picked up 3 set of forms because they wanted to keep the identity of their heavyweight secret. In which case, it would mean SDP is deadly serious about contesting.

I am not saying there is no demographic difference between a HDB New Town and a private housing estate. Of course, there is a difference, asset wise, but I don't think there is a big difference in education and age. As I had explained, except for the bottom or the top, the large middle class is basically classless and it is a poor one.

Regarding the HDB proposal, I am sad to say, many people will say it is drastic, perhaps too socialist in nature. Don't always think like a bankrupt. When people talk about bread and butter, they want the govt to reduce the land prices or at least to moderate and cap it for their salaries to catch up. They do not want to change the whole capitalist system altogether.

Regarding collecting 3 forms, there is another take on this. After not getting a response from WP on its "invite", SDP wants to create a fear in WP that they are serious in wanting contest and forces WP to the negotiation table.

I feel that the very existence of this "invite" means that SDP has a higher objective than contesting and that is to bargain for exclusivity in GE 2016. Is there an opposite scenario where they are actually serious in contesting and want WP to get out of the way? I don't think so. What is their bargaining chip?

I am not WP. I don't know how they will respond to this. But this BE is actually of no consequence to WP because they are not the incumbent seat holder. They only feel the obligation to their 41% supporters that they must put themselves up for election. And I believe they feel confident that they will maintain a 5 to 10% gap over the other opposition party. So no damage to them even if they lose. The ball should be back in SDP's court.
 
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